RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0

NEIS is NEIS. It's standardized for every public school teacher in the country. Say you (hypothetically) work from 9-5, so eight hours. If you leave work at 1 and enter it as 조퇴, you're still using four hours of vacation time. So, if you (hypothetically) had all 21 days of your vacation time remaining, you would now have 20.5 days of vacation time remaining. If you 조퇴 at 10 (for whatever reason, who knows) you're using seven hours of vacation time. It doesn't matter how long you're gone for - it matters what it's entered as.

You're correct that if you come in for a few hours and then 조퇴 for whatever reason, it's not using a full vacation day. But it's not free time off. You're using your vacation time.

As for your VP forcing you to use 조퇴 for stuff that should be 출장, that's total BS. Your VP sounds unpleasant.

I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. If you use a half day, do they really tell you "Sorry, you can only use 21.5 vacation days" when it comes time to schedule your summer/winter vacations? That they'll make you come in for half a day of desk warming? I've taken my share of half days over the years for things like medical checks and training/open classes at other schools, and I've literally never been told I only had whatever-and-a-half days left of my vacation.

At any rate, that's all irrelevant, since I was forced to use a vacation day because I couldn't just do a half day or business trip or what-the-****-ever, whether or not they'd subtract half a day from the vacation days I'd be allowed to use later in the year.

Also, just for posterity's sake, my VP is a lovely man. It's the Big Boss who's being a hardnose about all this.

Pretty sure in the contract, it says, it doesn't take a vacation day until you use 8 hours, then it takes a day. But anything less than 8 hours, then you still have your full vacation day.

Pretty sure in the contract, it says, it doesn't take a vacation day until you use 8 hours, then it takes a day. But anything less than 8 hours, then you still have your full vacation day.

yeah, it's there but there have been some issues i.e: disagreements between foreigners and schools between what should be counted and what shouldn't, and some MOE/POEs have actually gotten rid of that bit so check your most recent contract.

I bolded the relevant English and Korean section from EPIK's sample contract, Article 14, section 5 (each MOE/POE's version could be slightly/greatly different):

⑤ Regardless of the number of days over which the Paid Leave falls, eight accumulated hours of Paid Leave shall be counted as one day. This includes tardiness, early leave, other absences during the work day and/or half-days of Paid Leave. A total of less than eight hours will not be counted.

지각, 조퇴, 외출 및 반일연가 1회의 경우 누계시간으로 계산하며 8시간을 1일로 공제한다. 8시간 미만은 계산하지 않는다.

judging by the bolded sentence it may seem obvious that time under eight hours won't be counted, but the first sentence seems to contradict that interpretation. the first sentence defines time off as accumulated hours (누계시간으로) of PAID LEAVE, which means that all time off counts against paid leave, even if it occurred on different days and was just an hour or two, here or there.

now, despite the bolded sentence seemingly implying that anything under 8 hours will not be counted, I think what was intended (and worded very poorly) by EPIK was for that sentence to mean "A total of less than eight hours will not be counted as one day of paid leave but will still be counted"  the last part was left out, taken as a given I guess, seeing as the first sentence already made clear that all time off was to be counted against Paid Leave.

needless to say, quite confusing.

I think most schools have operated under the understanding that GETs sometimes leaving early for trips to immigration, bank etc should not be counted against paid leave however if there is some kind of disagreement and the schools have to phone an MOE/POE they will get the "all hours are counted against paid leave" line from coordinators on up the chain, as that is what was intended by the contract, despite the confusing wording.

discuss 

Pretty sure in the contract, it says, it doesn't take a vacation day until you use 8 hours, then it takes a day. But anything less than 8 hours, then you still have your full vacation day.

yeah, it's there but there have been some issues i.e: disagreements between foreigners and schools between what should be counted and what shouldn't, and some MOE/POEs have actually gotten rid of that bit so check your most recent contract.

I bolded the relevant English and Korean section from EPIK's sample contract, Article 14, section 5 (each MOE/POE's version could be slightly/greatly different):

⑤ Regardless of the number of days over which the Paid Leave falls, eight accumulated hours of Paid Leave shall be counted as one day. This includes tardiness, early leave, other absences during the work day and/or half-days of Paid Leave. A total of less than eight hours will not be counted.

지각, 조퇴, 외출 및 반일연가 1회의 경우 누계시간으로 계산하며 8시간을 1일로 공제한다. 8시간 미만은 계산하지 않는다.

judging by the bolded sentence it may seem obvious that time under eight hours won't be counted, but the first sentence seems to contradict that interpretation. the first sentence defines time off as accumulated hours (누계시간으로) of PAID LEAVE, which means that all time off counts against paid leave, even if it occurred on different days and was just an hour or two, here or there.

now, despite the bolded sentence seemingly implying that anything under 8 hours will not be counted, I think what was intended (and worded very poorly) by EPIK was for that sentence to mean "A total of less than eight hours will not be counted as one day of paid leave but will still be counted"  the last part was left out, taken as a given I guess, seeing as the first sentence already made clear that all time off was to be counted against Paid Leave.

needless to say, quite confusing.

I think most schools have operated under the understanding that GETs sometimes leaving early for trips to immigration, bank etc should not be counted against paid leave however if there is some kind of disagreement and the schools have to phone an MOE/POE they will get the "all hours are counted against paid leave" line from coordinators on up the chain, as that is what was intended by the contract, despite the confusing wording.

discuss 

Welcome to Korean contracts!

It’s not a specific language, so this happens a lot.

If you ever have a chance to put “if there is a conflict between the Korean and English version of this agreement, the English version takes precedence,” in a contract, do it. Also make sure that the Korean version has this in it.

This BS right here is the reason I find teaching proper pronunciation to be an uphill battle.


https://imgur.com/0ZGz7OD

This is my muddle, and this is my puddle.

This BS right here is the reason I find teaching proper pronunciation to be an uphill battle.


https://imgur.com/0ZGz7OD

Wow 

This BS right here is the reason I find teaching proper pronunciation to be an uphill battle.


https://imgur.com/0ZGz7OD

Wow 

Painful

Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwww, I hate putting the ㄹ onm the end of r words. The 어 is enough.

Teechaw sounds weird enough without the studetns saying teechawl. 

It's always great when someone is being rung up at the supermarket and when the cashier tells them how much they owe, the customer pulls out their fuckin telephone to open some app, that invariably will not work properly.

So they stand their like a goose, faffing about with their phone. All for what? To save some points?

If you are going to be an absolute mug and let them zap your phone and sell your data to who knows, then fine, some people can't be helped. But at least have the shit open and ready to go so you arent holding up every other ****** in the line.

It's always great when someone is being rung up at the supermarket and when the cashier tells them how much they owe, the customer pulls out their fuckin telephone to open some app, that invariably will not work properly.

So they stand their like a goose, faffing about with their phone. All for what? To save some points?

If you are going to be an absolute mug and let them zap your phone and sell your data to who knows, then fine, some people can't be helped. But at least have the shit open and ready to go so you arent holding up every other ****** in the line.

Cashier: Can I take your order?

Person who's been in line for 2 minutes and has been to McD 200 times in their life: Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Does that mean there's a difference in how different kinds of business trips are treated with regards to whether or not you have to come in first? So maybe it's not the same as "taking a half day," but more like "You have to be able to come in first in order to get this kind of business trip"? Is the issue here that immigration and medical are considered the type of business trip for which you have to come in to work first, and since I couldn't come in first if I wanted to make it to my appointment on time, I don't qualify for that kind of business trip?

I don't know. Fingers crossed someone can point me towards the regulation saying they can't make me use a day, hahaha.

it is entirely possible to take whole-day business trips. myself and my coteachers have done it before when we had to attend these dumb training seminars on the other side of the province i used to live in.

your school is just shit and your principal is a dick. they are feeding you a bunch of nonsense. NEIS is a nationalised system. NATIONAL. those rules they're telling you are their own stupid rules they've made up.

your school is just shit and your principal is a dick. they are feeding you a bunch of nonsense. NEIS is a nationalised system. NATIONAL. those rules they're telling you are their own stupid rules they've made up.

I contacted my POE coordinator and he told me the school was right, so I don't think they made it up. I think it's more likely that while the concept of a taking a business trip is an NEIS thing, the standards for what qualifies as a business trip can differ. Just because NEIS allows for business trips to be taken doesn't necessarily mean that all trips count as business trips. That seems to be the crux of the issue here: Other provinces allow immigration trips to count as business trips, my province apparently doesn't.

Does that mean there's a difference in how different kinds of business trips are treated with regards to whether or not you have to come in first? So maybe it's not the same as "taking a half day," but more like "You have to be able to come in first in order to get this kind of business trip"? Is the issue here that immigration and medical are considered the type of business trip for which you have to come in to work first, and since I couldn't come in first if I wanted to make it to my appointment on time, I don't qualify for that kind of business trip?

I don't know. Fingers crossed someone can point me towards the regulation saying they can't make me use a day, hahaha.

This is 100% accurate. Again, it's not how long you're away for, it's what it's categorized in on NEIS.

it is entirely possible to take whole-day business trips. myself and my coteachers have done it before when we had to attend these dumb training seminars on the other side of the province i used to live in.

your school is just shit and your principal is a dick. they are feeding you a bunch of nonsense. NEIS is a nationalised system. NATIONAL. those rules they're telling you are their own stupid rules they've made up.

Someone has "cleaned" the whiteboard in my classroom and it's ruined now.  Looks like they used soap and water.

Yay.

This is 100% accurate. Again, it's not how long you're away for, it's what it's categorized in on NEIS.

Except it wasn't 100% accurate, as my school wasn't just making sh!t up, unless the POE is in on it. Whether or not you can take a full day for a business trip is irrelevant if the POE doesn't consider trips to immigration to be business trips. I thought the issue might have been the length of the trip, which is why I was asking those hypotheticals, but the problem is the nature of the trip, not the length.

This is 100% accurate. Again, it's not how long you're away for, it's what it's categorized in on NEIS.

Except it wasn't 100% accurate, as my school wasn't just making sh!t up, unless the POE is in on it. Whether or not you can take a full day for a business trip is irrelevant if the POE doesn't consider trips to immigration to be business trips. I thought the issue might have been the length of the trip, which is why I was asking those hypotheticals, but the problem is the nature of the trip, not the length.

In previous years, did you have to use a vacation day on that?

This is 100% accurate. Again, it's not how long you're away for, it's what it's categorized in on NEIS.

Except it wasn't 100% accurate, as my school wasn't just making sh!t up, unless the POE is in on it. Whether or not you can take a full day for a business trip is irrelevant if the POE doesn't consider trips to immigration to be business trips. I thought the issue might have been the length of the trip, which is why I was asking those hypotheticals, but the problem is the nature of the trip, not the length.

In previous years, did you have to use a vacation day on that?

Nope. In previous years I never had to take a full day, because my schools let a CoT take me. I suspect that schools can use their own discretion whether or not to count something as a business trip, and my current principal is a hardline, by-the-book-type. If the rules don't specifically say a trip to immigration is considered a business trip, then he isn't going to count it as one. It's the same reason he didn't let a CoT take me: There's no rule saying he has to.

He's a dick, yes, but he isn't just making rules up. That's why I was hoping someone could point me towards a national law that says immigration trips must be considered business trips, rather than just something like "my province lets me" or "it's in my (province-specific) contract." If I had something to show my POE coordinator stating it's supposed to be a business trip, this would all be a non-issue.

Oh well. I should probably move on to something new to rant and/or vent about, and stop clogging this thread up with this one stupid problem. 

This is 100% accurate. Again, it's not how long you're away for, it's what it's categorized in on NEIS.

Except it wasn't 100% accurate, as my school wasn't just making sh!t up, unless the POE is in on it. Whether or not you can take a full day for a business trip is irrelevant if the POE doesn't consider trips to immigration to be business trips. I thought the issue might have been the length of the trip, which is why I was asking those hypotheticals, but the problem is the nature of the trip, not the length.

In previous years, did you have to use a vacation day on that?

Nope. In previous years I never had to take a full day, because my schools let a CoT take me. I suspect that schools can use their own discretion whether or not to count something as a business trip, and my current principal is a hardline, by-the-book-type. If the rules don't specifically say a trip to immigration is considered a business trip, then he isn't going to count it as one. It's the same reason he didn't let a CoT take me: There's no rule saying he has to.

He's a dick, yes, but he isn't just making rules up. That's why I was hoping someone could point me towards a national law that says immigration trips must be considered business trips, rather than just something like "my province lets me" or "it's in my (province-specific) contract." If I had something to show my POE coordinator stating it's supposed to be a business trip, this would all be a non-issue.

Oh well. I should probably move on to something new to rant and/or vent about, and stop clogging this thread up with this one stupid problem. 

Just register it as a business trip. He will deny it. Apply again. Refuse to go to Immigration until he approves it. What are they going to do? Let you work illegally?

This is 100% accurate. Again, it's not how long you're away for, it's what it's categorized in on NEIS.

Except it wasn't 100% accurate, as my school wasn't just making sh!t up, unless the POE is in on it. Whether or not you can take a full day for a business trip is irrelevant if the POE doesn't consider trips to immigration to be business trips. I thought the issue might have been the length of the trip, which is why I was asking those hypotheticals, but the problem is the nature of the trip, not the length.

In previous years, did you have to use a vacation day on that?

Nope. In previous years I never had to take a full day, because my schools let a CoT take me. I suspect that schools can use their own discretion whether or not to count something as a business trip, and my current principal is a hardline, by-the-book-type. If the rules don't specifically say a trip to immigration is considered a business trip, then he isn't going to count it as one. It's the same reason he didn't let a CoT take me: There's no rule saying he has to.

He's a dick, yes, but he isn't just making rules up. That's why I was hoping someone could point me towards a national law that says immigration trips must be considered business trips, rather than just something like "my province lets me" or "it's in my (province-specific) contract." If I had something to show my POE coordinator stating it's supposed to be a business trip, this would all be a non-issue.

Oh well. I should probably move on to something new to rant and/or vent about, and stop clogging this thread up with this one stupid problem. 

I hope you can find one that says it is. I'd hate for someone to lose a vacation day for something work related.
I'd would try your contact at the education office again just to argue that fact, that you shouldn't have to lose a vacation day to a work thing.

Just register it as a business trip. He will deny it. Apply again. Refuse to go to Immigration until he approves it. What are they going to do? Let you work illegally?

As I said before, I've already gone to immigration. I'd rather lose a vacation day than have to deal with whatever nonsense would be involved with trying to renew an expired visa/ARC.

I'd would try your contact at the education office again just to argue that fact, that you shouldn't have to lose a vacation day to a work thing.

His response was "That's how it's always been," so I'm not sure trying him again would have much of a point. Most likely I have to just chalk this up as a lesson learned about how things are done here, and add it to the list of reasons I hate...  everything.