RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0

503 Errors...****** 503 errors everywhere. It's like Oprah delivering unto her congregation of viewers bees. The gift of '**** you, have more,' when no, I'd really rather not. >.<

Yeah. I mean, I've been here for way too long, and I've had a couple miserable experiences with rude workers at immigration, too. I think everyone has. But, I never had anyone come to immigration with me beyond the very first time, and I somehow managed to work it out whenever problems came up.

That's fair enough, but I imagine that whatever problems you had probably would have been more quickly resolved if you'd had a native Korean with you. That, or the problems you had weren't major.

In my first example, the officer was blatantly trying to lie just to give me a hard time. He was making claims that weren't true and that I, without being able to understand or speak Korean, would not have been able to defend myself against. The entire office was being very dismissive towards me and were siding with the officer because he was "one of them." It got to a point where he was even saying that I might get deported.

If it hadn't been for my coT being there with me to communicate with them and to catch them saying anything inaccurate to the supervisor once he finally came into the office, it probably wouldn't have gotten resolved that day at all, and I might've had to fork over 400k won in penalty fees for something that I was not responsible for.

First, if you work for EPIK or SMOE, a trip to the immigration office to renew your visa is 출장. It's explicitly stated in the Korean guide for managing native teachers. He legally can't make you use a vacation day. Call your local MOE. Don't take that nonsense from him.

You must have some information that my Provincial Office of Education doesn't, because the first thing I did when my school told me I'd have to use a vacation day was contact my EPIK/POE liason, and he told me the same thing the school did. If I couldn't use a half-day/조퇴, I had to use a vacation day. Since I'm far enough away that I wouldn't be able to get it done with just a half day given the only time slot I was able to make an appointment, I'm SOL. If you know some Korea-wide law/regulation and can give me a link to something I can show them proving them wrong, that'd be cool.

In my contract (Gangwondo), it's specified it Article 11 (Renewals) #5. Visa renewals and medical examinations that must be completed during the Term of Employment for the purpose of renewing this Contract shall be registered and miscellaneous business trips, without a business trip stipend.

I'm guessing this is pretty standard in all EPIK contracts. I don't see how half-day or whole-day would change things.

In my contract (Gangwondo), it's specified it Article 11 (Renewals) #5. Visa renewals and medical examinations that must be completed during the Term of Employment for the purpose of renewing this Contract shall be registered and miscellaneous business trips, without a business trip stipend.

I'm guessing this is pretty standard in all EPIK contracts. I don't see how half-day or whole-day would change things.

It's the same for mine.

Except that I do get paid a small stipend to make that trip to immi.

Well, that's pretty presumptuous going and ASSUMING someone is competent.  Rude, even.

Well, you know what they say about assuming, right? It makes an "ass" out of "u" and... uh... some random dude named "Ming".

Alternatively, if you make an assumption, you'll look like an ass and the ump will shun you 

Mister Tim, glad you got it sorted, that sounded like a nightmare.  Did you end up having to use a vacation day.

#basedcowboyshirt, yeah I'd tone down your condescension and general high horsing if I were you.

In my contract (Gangwondo), it's specified it Article 11 (Renewals) #5. Visa renewals and medical examinations that must be completed during the Term of Employment for the purpose of renewing this Contract shall be registered and miscellaneous business trips, without a business trip stipend.

I'm guessing this is pretty standard in all EPIK contracts. I don't see how half-day or whole-day would change things.

Unfortunately for me, you guess incorrectly. I just went through my contract to see if there's a similar clause to the one you mentioned, and there is not.

Half day vs whole day changes things because of how they're entered in the NEIS system and how that affects the days off you've used. If I were able to come in for a few hours in the morning and then go to immigration, it would be registered as 조퇴 and I wouldn't have to use a vacation day. Since it couldn't do that and my contract doesn't provide for exceptions in cases such as going to immigration or medical, I had to use a vacation day.

...Yes, that means I'd also have to use a vacation day for my annual physical if I choose to renew again, if I'm unable to do the 조퇴 thing. Luckily, I should be able to just use a half-day for that, since I can just do walk-ins instead of being beholden to an online appointment schedule.

In my contract (Gangwondo), it's specified it Article 11 (Renewals) #5. Visa renewals and medical examinations that must be completed during the Term of Employment for the purpose of renewing this Contract shall be registered and miscellaneous business trips, without a business trip stipend.

I'm guessing this is pretty standard in all EPIK contracts. I don't see how half-day or whole-day would change things.

Unfortunately for me, you guess incorrectly. I just went through my contract to see if there's a similar clause to the one you mentioned, and there is not.

Half day vs whole day changes things because of how they're entered in the NEIS system and how that affects the days off you've used. If I were able to come in for a few hours in the morning and then go to immigration, it would be registered as 조퇴 and I wouldn't have to use a vacation day. Since it couldn't do that and my contract doesn't provide for exceptions in cases such as going to immigration or medical, I had to use a vacation day.

...Yes, that means I'd also have to use a vacation day for my annual physical if I choose to renew again, if I'm unable to do the 조퇴 thing. Luckily, I should be able to just use a half-day for that, since I can just do walk-ins instead of being beholden to an online appointment schedule.

Oh man, that's bullshirt.

And sorry, my whole day/half day comment was in relation to the contract clause. Which is a moot point because it's not in your contract.  I didn't fully write out my thought so that's my bad.

In my contract (Gangwondo), it's specified it Article 11 (Renewals) #5. Visa renewals and medical examinations that must be completed during the Term of Employment for the purpose of renewing this Contract shall be registered and miscellaneous business trips, without a business trip stipend.

I'm guessing this is pretty standard in all EPIK contracts. I don't see how half-day or whole-day would change things.

Unfortunately for me, you guess incorrectly. I just went through my contract to see if there's a similar clause to the one you mentioned, and there is not.

Half day vs whole day changes things because of how they're entered in the NEIS system and how that affects the days off you've used. If I were able to come in for a few hours in the morning and then go to immigration, it would be registered as 조퇴 and I wouldn't have to use a vacation day. Since it couldn't do that and my contract doesn't provide for exceptions in cases such as going to immigration or medical, I had to use a vacation day.

...Yes, that means I'd also have to use a vacation day for my annual physical if I choose to renew again, if I'm unable to do the 조퇴 thing. Luckily, I should be able to just use a half-day for that, since I can just do walk-ins instead of being beholden to an online appointment schedule.

NEIS is NEIS. It's standardized for every public school teacher in the country. Say you (hypothetically) work from 9-5, so eight hours. If you leave work at 1 and enter it as 조퇴, you're still using four hours of vacation time. So, if you (hypothetically) had all 21 days of your vacation time remaining, you would now have 20.5 days of vacation time remaining. If you 조퇴 at 10 (for whatever reason, who knows) you're using seven hours of vacation time. It doesn't matter how long you're gone for - it matters what it's entered as.

You're correct that if you come in for a few hours and then 조퇴 for whatever reason, it's not using a full vacation day. But it's not free time off. You're using your vacation time.

As for your VP forcing you to use 조퇴 for stuff that should be 출장, that's total BS. Your VP sounds unpleasant.

NEIS is NEIS. It's standardized for every public school teacher in the country. Say you (hypothetically) work from 9-5, so eight hours. If you leave work at 1 and enter it as 조퇴, you're still using four hours of vacation time. So, if you (hypothetically) had all 21 days of your vacation time remaining, you would now have 20.5 days of vacation time remaining. If you 조퇴 at 10 (for whatever reason, who knows) you're using seven hours of vacation time. It doesn't matter how long you're gone for - it matters what it's entered as.

You're correct that if you come in for a few hours and then 조퇴 for whatever reason, it's not using a full vacation day. But it's not free time off. You're using your vacation time.

As for your VP forcing you to use 조퇴 for stuff that should be 출장, that's total BS. Your VP sounds unpleasant.

I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. If you use a half day, do they really tell you "Sorry, you can only use 21.5 vacation days" when it comes time to schedule your summer/winter vacations? That they'll make you come in for half a day of desk warming? I've taken my share of half days over the years for things like medical checks and training/open classes at other schools, and I've literally never been told I only had whatever-and-a-half days left of my vacation.

At any rate, that's all irrelevant, since I was forced to use a vacation day because I couldn't just do a half day or business trip or what-the-****-ever, whether or not they'd subtract half a day from the vacation days I'd be allowed to use later in the year.

Also, just for posterity's sake, my VP is a lovely man. It's the Big Boss who's being a hardnose about all this.

Trips to Immigration and other mandatory errands should be registered as business trips. I do NEIS stuff myself (with help from co-workers in complicated situations) and that's how I register them.

nvm

#based is 100% correct. it gets entered as 출장 which is a business trip. because it's a business-related matter. same with the medical. you're not using personal time.

speak to your coordinator if you have a problem with the school regarding that. you absolutely should not have to use any vacation time.

if you can't get it resolved, then just refuse to go. i actually did that with one of my schools once. usage of vacation days is optional and they can't force you to take them. the school will most likely relent eventually because they'll realize they won't have an NET if you don't go to immi to renew your E2, which, incidentally, is a WORK visa.

and you can in fact take half vacation days. i've done that in the past when i've wanted to leave early on a friday to go to Busan or whatever. just take a half day here and another half day there.

#based is 100% correct. it gets entered as 출장 which is a business trip. because it's a business-related matter. same with the medical. you're not using personal time.

speak to your coordinator if you have a problem with the school regarding that. you absolutely should not have to use any vacation time.

Speaking to my coordinator was the very first thing I did. I was told that not only do I have to use a vacation day for it, but that that's how it's always been.

I think there are a few possibilities here. Either...

1) You guys are assigning national status to a rule that's actually varies from province to province, or...

2) There's a national law explicitly stating it doesn't require a vacation day, and my POE is unfamiliar with it.

I really hope it's the latter and that someone here can point me towards a national law/regulation/whatever stating I don't have to use a vacation day, so I can pass that along to my coordinator.

if you can't get it resolved, then just refuse to go. i actually did that with one of my schools once. usage of vacation days is optional and they can't force you to take them. the school will most likely relent eventually because they'll realize they won't have an NET if you don't go to immi to renew your E2, which, incidentally, is a WORK visa.

Too late, haha. I went yesterday. My old ARC was set to expire this coming Monday, and I don't think I'd have enjoyed paying whatever penalties I'd have had to pay if I'd have let it expire before trying to renew it. They didn't tell me I'd have to use a vacation day until the day before my appointment.

and you can in fact take half vacation days. i've done that in the past when i've wanted to leave early on a friday to go to Busan or whatever. just take a half day here and another half day there.

I'm wondering if I might be confused about terminology here.

I commute about 45 minutes to and from work, and when I have mandatory training events they tend to be in locations in the opposite direction from my apartment compared to my school. Sometimes they're in a location that will require about two hours' travel from my school, versus 1-1.25 hours travel from my apartment. I'm still required to come in to school in the morning even if I don't have any classes scheduled.

When I asked if I could just stay home in the morning so I could just go straight to training rather than commuting in the opposite direction then travelling for two hours, my CoT said something to the effect of "Teachers are required to come in for two periods before leaving for training. Even the Korean teachers." There seemed to be some NEIS-related reason for that, but he couldn't explain it very well, so I don't know.

Does that mean there's a difference in how different kinds of business trips are treated with regards to whether or not you have to come in first? So maybe it's not the same as "taking a half day," but more like "You have to be able to come in first in order to get this kind of business trip"? Is the issue here that immigration and medical are considered the type of business trip for which you have to come in to work first, and since I couldn't come in first if I wanted to make it to my appointment on time, I don't qualify for that kind of business trip?

I don't know. Fingers crossed someone can point me towards the regulation saying they can't make me use a day, hahaha.

Honey, I don't need to tell you this, but Daegu is the Conservative heart of Korea. Kind of like Texas, haha.

  that's true. :)

10 mins later.

Random 40 year old  : (in Korean) You ****** foreigner. Leave our women alone. **** you you ****** slut. Why are you with him. He is not Korean. You? You come here to take our women? Go back to America you ****** bastard.

  Honey, let it go, I've heard it before.

 : I want to kill this man.

NEIS is NEIS. It's standardized for every public school teacher in the country. Say you (hypothetically) work from 9-5, so eight hours. If you leave work at 1 and enter it as 조퇴, you're still using four hours of vacation time. So, if you (hypothetically) had all 21 days of your vacation time remaining, you would now have 20.5 days of vacation time remaining. If you 조퇴 at 10 (for whatever reason, who knows) you're using seven hours of vacation time. It doesn't matter how long you're gone for - it matters what it's entered as.

You're correct that if you come in for a few hours and then 조퇴 for whatever reason, it's not using a full vacation day. But it's not free time off. You're using your vacation time.

As for your VP forcing you to use 조퇴 for stuff that should be 출장, that's total BS. Your VP sounds unpleasant.

I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. If you use a half day, do they really tell you "Sorry, you can only use 21.5 vacation days" when it comes time to schedule your summer/winter vacations? That they'll make you come in for half a day of desk warming? I've taken my share of half days over the years for things like medical checks and training/open classes at other schools, and I've literally never been told I only had whatever-and-a-half days left of my vacation.

At any rate, that's all irrelevant, since I was forced to use a vacation day because I couldn't just do a half day or business trip or what-the-****-ever, whether or not they'd subtract half a day from the vacation days I'd be allowed to use later in the year.

Also, just for posterity's sake, my VP is a lovely man. It's the Big Boss who's being a hardnose about all this.

Pretty sure in the contract, it says, it doesn't take a vacation day until you use 8 hours, then it takes a day. But anything less than 8 hours, then you still have your full vacation day.

Pretty sure in the contract, it says, it doesn't take a vacation day until you use 8 hours, then it takes a day. But anything less than 8 hours, then you still have your full vacation day.

yeah, it's there but there have been some issues i.e: disagreements between foreigners and schools between what should be counted and what shouldn't, and some MOE/POEs have actually gotten rid of that bit so check your most recent contract.

I bolded the relevant English and Korean section from EPIK's sample contract, Article 14, section 5 (each MOE/POE's version could be slightly/greatly different):

⑤ Regardless of the number of days over which the Paid Leave falls, eight accumulated hours of Paid Leave shall be counted as one day. This includes tardiness, early leave, other absences during the work day and/or half-days of Paid Leave. A total of less than eight hours will not be counted.

지각, 조퇴, 외출 및 반일연가 1회의 경우 누계시간으로 계산하며 8시간을 1일로 공제한다. 8시간 미만은 계산하지 않는다.

judging by the bolded sentence it may seem obvious that time under eight hours won't be counted, but the first sentence seems to contradict that interpretation. the first sentence defines time off as accumulated hours (누계시간으로) of PAID LEAVE, which means that all time off counts against paid leave, even if it occurred on different days and was just an hour or two, here or there.

now, despite the bolded sentence seemingly implying that anything under 8 hours will not be counted, I think what was intended (and worded very poorly) by EPIK was for that sentence to mean "A total of less than eight hours will not be counted as one day of paid leave but will still be counted"  the last part was left out, taken as a given I guess, seeing as the first sentence already made clear that all time off was to be counted against Paid Leave.

needless to say, quite confusing.

I think most schools have operated under the understanding that GETs sometimes leaving early for trips to immigration, bank etc should not be counted against paid leave however if there is some kind of disagreement and the schools have to phone an MOE/POE they will get the "all hours are counted against paid leave" line from coordinators on up the chain, as that is what was intended by the contract, despite the confusing wording.

discuss 

Pretty sure in the contract, it says, it doesn't take a vacation day until you use 8 hours, then it takes a day. But anything less than 8 hours, then you still have your full vacation day.

yeah, it's there but there have been some issues i.e: disagreements between foreigners and schools between what should be counted and what shouldn't, and some MOE/POEs have actually gotten rid of that bit so check your most recent contract.

I bolded the relevant English and Korean section from EPIK's sample contract, Article 14, section 5 (each MOE/POE's version could be slightly/greatly different):

⑤ Regardless of the number of days over which the Paid Leave falls, eight accumulated hours of Paid Leave shall be counted as one day. This includes tardiness, early leave, other absences during the work day and/or half-days of Paid Leave. A total of less than eight hours will not be counted.

지각, 조퇴, 외출 및 반일연가 1회의 경우 누계시간으로 계산하며 8시간을 1일로 공제한다. 8시간 미만은 계산하지 않는다.

judging by the bolded sentence it may seem obvious that time under eight hours won't be counted, but the first sentence seems to contradict that interpretation. the first sentence defines time off as accumulated hours (누계시간으로) of PAID LEAVE, which means that all time off counts against paid leave, even if it occurred on different days and was just an hour or two, here or there.

now, despite the bolded sentence seemingly implying that anything under 8 hours will not be counted, I think what was intended (and worded very poorly) by EPIK was for that sentence to mean "A total of less than eight hours will not be counted as one day of paid leave but will still be counted"  the last part was left out, taken as a given I guess, seeing as the first sentence already made clear that all time off was to be counted against Paid Leave.

needless to say, quite confusing.

I think most schools have operated under the understanding that GETs sometimes leaving early for trips to immigration, bank etc should not be counted against paid leave however if there is some kind of disagreement and the schools have to phone an MOE/POE they will get the "all hours are counted against paid leave" line from coordinators on up the chain, as that is what was intended by the contract, despite the confusing wording.

discuss 

Welcome to Korean contracts!

It’s not a specific language, so this happens a lot.

If you ever have a chance to put “if there is a conflict between the Korean and English version of this agreement, the English version takes precedence,” in a contract, do it. Also make sure that the Korean version has this in it.

This BS right here is the reason I find teaching proper pronunciation to be an uphill battle.


https://imgur.com/0ZGz7OD

This is my muddle, and this is my puddle.

This BS right here is the reason I find teaching proper pronunciation to be an uphill battle.


https://imgur.com/0ZGz7OD

Wow