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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #8920 on: October 08, 2018, 08:10:52 pm »
nice post.

it feels at korean elementary schools, teaching english is the lowest rung of the ladder, and pretty much nobody wants to do it. it's usually the new teachers (younger teachers these days, at least, can usually speak english fairly well) who have no experience teaching - let alone teaching english, or contract teachers, who know they'll only be there for a short time (some who can barely string a sentence together).

either way, nobody wants to do it, and they have no real passion for it, either. there's no system about how to teach (apart from following the textbook to a T) because nobody in the school has any idea either - and the native teachers are usually largely ignored (not that i'm saying they are necessarily more knowledgeable, but  i know a couple of instructors who have been at their schools for 10 or so years and are never asked for their input on textbooks, teaching tips, assessments, etc)

the only constant i can find used to assess if a class if successful is, "well, the kids seem to like it"

In order to assess people's teaching properly you need to set in place the following.

1) Have clear criteria for assessment, which the people being assessed understand.
2) Have assessors trained in identifying and assessing this criteria
3) Have all the assessors standardized in their assessment techniques and grading.
4) Have external assessors, with the same training occasionally monitor and standardize the assessors.

This is what happens with the CELTA, DELTA and formal observations at the BC. and until all this is in place  no one will really take it seriously e.g Aristocrat

Sure you can observe anyone at any time for other reasons but it shouldn't have any effect on their job unless most, if not all, of the above conditions are met.
 
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 08:45:31 pm by eggieguffer »


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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #8921 on: October 09, 2018, 12:38:33 am »
The consequences of tenure. Unions are usually a great thing, but stuff like this is why there needs to be some balance.
in england there's an outside agency called OFSTED that periodically grades schools and teachers' performances. stressful and all teachers in england hate it, but it seems to work to some extent - to keep the teachers on their toes if not anything else

all performance grading in korea seems to be done half-arsed and in-house (i think?), so it seems there's no real incentive to do a good job

This just went down in Canada:
Universities are checking up on highschools.

Basically, many universities are noticing that there is a huge discrepancy between the grades of students originating from certain schools and their performance in uni. There's a big brewhaha about some of the unis considering curving student grades depending on where they originate from.

   Basically, lazy teachers are half assing their classes, and just marking up grades to make the school look good... which is exactly what I've heard many NETs complain about here in Korea. Hopefully one day unis will hold schools accountable for the education they give their students by adjusting highschool rankings according to amount of grade inflation... it'll never happen, but hey.

This may be the case, but I think the biggest reason is parents and not teachers. A school with lower scores might get more funding, but not one with higher scores. The school may get students who are more motivated (self or parent motivation). Other benefits of have wealthier students might also pop up.

The reason I think this is happening is because teachers get harassed by parents and from a teacher's perspective it's not worth it to go to battle against White Wine or Tiger Moms who have nothing better to do.
Ko fills half his luggage with instant noodles for his international business travels, a lesson he learned after assuming on his first trip that three packages would suffice for six days. “Man, was I wrong. Since then, I always make sure I pack enough.”
-AP


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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #8922 on: October 10, 2018, 11:48:20 am »
The reason I think this is happening is because teachers get harassed by parents and from a teacher's perspective it's not worth it to go to battle against White Wine or Tiger Moms who have nothing better to do.

Haven't come across this expression before, and Urban Dictionary is only giving me smut. I have a general sense of what it might mean, but... my general guesses usually end up embarrassing me, so...


Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #8923 on: October 10, 2018, 12:18:06 pm »
nice post.

it feels at korean elementary schools, teaching english is the lowest rung of the ladder, and pretty much nobody wants to do it. it's usually the new teachers (younger teachers these days, at least, can usually speak english fairly well) who have no experience teaching - let alone teaching english, or contract teachers, who know they'll only be there for a short time (some who can barely string a sentence together).

either way, nobody wants to do it, and they have no real passion for it, either. there's no system about how to teach (apart from following the textbook to a T) because nobody in the school has any idea either - and the native teachers are usually largely ignored (not that i'm saying they are necessarily more knowledgeable, but  i know a couple of instructors who have been at their schools for 10 or so years and are never asked for their input on textbooks, teaching tips, assessments, etc)

the only constant i can find used to assess if a class if successful is, "well, the kids seem to like it"

I think some of it depends on whether your school is old school or not. I'm starting year 2 at my elementary schools and they been really great and do ask my opinions about stuff, such as textbooks. I'd say the biggest chunk of it is just feeling shy and embarrassed speaking in another language, especially if you aren't young and grew up with more exposure to English and Western TV shows/movies/music, etc. If you aren't very confident and have to stand beside a native speaker and use English all day.. that can feel really intimidating for adults. Kids aren't so self-conscious.  It would be the same if the situation was reversed


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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #8924 on: October 14, 2018, 10:30:47 am »
nice post.

it feels at korean elementary schools, teaching english is the lowest rung of the ladder, and pretty much nobody wants to do it. it's usually the new teachers (younger teachers these days, at least, can usually speak english fairly well) who have no experience teaching - let alone teaching english, or contract teachers, who know they'll only be there for a short time (some who can barely string a sentence together).

either way, nobody wants to do it, and they have no real passion for it, either. there's no system about how to teach (apart from following the textbook to a T) because nobody in the school has any idea either - and the native teachers are usually largely ignored (not that i'm saying they are necessarily more knowledgeable, but  i know a couple of instructors who have been at their schools for 10 or so years and are never asked for their input on textbooks, teaching tips, assessments, etc)

the only constant i can find used to assess if a class if successful is, "well, the kids seem to like it"

I think some of it depends on whether your school is old school or not. I'm starting year 2 at my elementary schools and they been really great and do ask my opinions about stuff, such as textbooks. I'd say the biggest chunk of it is just feeling shy and embarrassed speaking in another language, especially if you aren't young and grew up with more exposure to English and Western TV shows/movies/music, etc. If you aren't very confident and have to stand beside a native speaker and use English all day.. that can feel really intimidating for adults. Kids aren't so self-conscious.  It would be the same if the situation was reversed

Shy and embarrassed is perfectly acceptable if you're a cashier at Lotte Mart. When you're a Korean school teacher, you studied at university/college and part of that training DOES include teaching English, particularly for elementary school teachers, you're trained to teach in every subject. Taking out the 9yrs of English education at public school, as well as your university education, it IS indeed your job to be able to teach English, this includes being able to communicate in the language, to a reasonable degree. Dismissing all of this even, nothing is stopping a Korean teacher from improving their English after becoming a teacher, particularly if they find their skill is lacking. No, the standard MO is to run away and avoid any situation where they'd have to speak/use English (their job) for the next 20-30yrs.

When you're paid money to do a job, shy and embarrassed is no excuse for being incompetent. 
If the situation were reversed, you're teaching a foreign language in a western school and it's discovered you barely speak the language, you'd be fired ASAP.


Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #8925 on: October 14, 2018, 11:23:24 am »
Yeah have to agree with some of Aristocrat's points above.

The majority of my coteachers are scared of speaking English and happily admit it.  They don't like speaking English because they know (and again admit) that they aren't good at it.

But I totally understand their position.  Teaching English here doesn't require any speaking skills.  I can't remember ever walking past an English class and hearing English being spoken.  Ever. 

They're in a position where they can never be fired and have a job for life.  Why waste time and energy to improve speaking skills?  I probably wouldn't lol.  Although it must be embarrassing when students can speak English better than they can.  I've seen that happen A LOT.


Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #8926 on: October 14, 2018, 11:33:56 am »
Quote
Shy and embarrassed is perfectly acceptable if you're a cashier at Lotte Mart. When you're a Korean school teacher, you studied at university/college and part of that training DOES include teaching English, particularly for elementary school teachers, you're trained to teach in every subject. Taking out the 9yrs of English education at public school, as well as your university education, it IS indeed your job to be able to teach English, this includes being able to communicate in the language, to a reasonable degree. Dismissing all of this even, nothing is stopping a Korean teacher from improving their English after becoming a teacher, particularly if they find their skill is lacking. No, the standard MO is to run away and avoid any situation where they'd have to speak/use English (their job) for the next 20-30yrs.

When you're paid money to do a job, shy and embarrassed is no excuse for being incompetent. 
If the situation were reversed, you're teaching a foreign language in a western school and it's discovered you barely speak the language, you'd be fired ASAP.

Well said. Many of these teachers also get trips abroad paid for by the tax payer, to study English and come back worse than when they left.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2018, 11:43:18 am by eggieguffer »


Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #8927 on: October 14, 2018, 12:55:53 pm »
So.....why were a group of us banned for a few days?

One thing j learnt during my exile, was the "other site" works better on mobile devices!
« Last Edit: October 14, 2018, 12:57:50 pm by sligo »


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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #8928 on: October 14, 2018, 01:48:34 pm »
So.....why were a group of us banned for a few days?

One thing j learnt during my exile, was the "other site" works better on mobile devices!

It appears that everyone was banned for a few days. There were no posts whatsoever for 4 days.


  • JVPrice
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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #8929 on: October 14, 2018, 07:58:46 pm »
So.....why were a group of us banned for a few days?

One thing j learnt during my exile, was the "other site" works better on mobile devices!

I saw a post on a reddit thread. Apparently one of the mods was going to ban someone, but made a huge mistake. This is the post:

Quote
Hey folks, came here to say this is my fault. It's an honest mistake, but a mistake nonetheless. The way the ban triggers work aren't the most user friendly thing in the world. Previously when I wanted to ban a user, a ton of IPs would show up or it would list 100s of users (if not more) under "possible users with this ip"-ish header. So of course I would ignore the IP option and simply ban their account and email from being used.

I had only ever previously banned 1 or maybe two spammers. Well just a few days ago, another spammer posted and as I was going to ban them, I noticed there was no super long list of IPs or users associated with the IP, so I figured it was probably safe to ban the IP (this spammer consistently changes usernames and emails in order to post their NSFW spam). Banning their IP would hopefully curb their spam for a while I hoped. Unfortunately banning that IP has caused this current predicament. I emailed Arsalan a couple days ago, and I assume other mods have as well if they are also unable to log in... Yes, I am also "banned." Feelsbadman.

Really sorry for all this shit. It's likely as much inconvenience to me as it is to you. I can only hope the fix isn't difficult, but I have no knowledge of that at this time. I had mentioned in the mod section of the forums about how there is little information about how to use the more advanced moderator features, but those with the most knowledge on that topic are quite busy these days.

I do find it genuinely funny that a couple people thought it might be my account that had been hacked considering I'm not well liked. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #8930 on: October 14, 2018, 10:16:22 pm »
The reason I think this is happening is because teachers get harassed by parents and from a teacher's perspective it's not worth it to go to battle against White Wine or Tiger Moms who have nothing better to do.

Haven't come across this expression before, and Urban Dictionary is only giving me smut. I have a general sense of what it might mean, but... my general guesses usually end up embarrassing me, so...

A White Wine Mom in my mind has kid(s) and kind of regrets it. She thought it would be more like what she's seen on TV and movies. She's overwhelmed. Her husband works as a highly placed executive at a company which we all purchase products from. The family's finances are so safe that outside help can be paid for to do most of the parenting. Her friends hired Filipinas, so she does the same. Her kid accidentally called the nanny, mom. She was angry, but also felt a tinge of guilt. As they leave for the playground, she glances into her glass-door refrigerator, then at the kitchen clock. It's not too early, she tells herself.
Ko fills half his luggage with instant noodles for his international business travels, a lesson he learned after assuming on his first trip that three packages would suffice for six days. “Man, was I wrong. Since then, I always make sure I pack enough.”
-AP


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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #8931 on: October 15, 2018, 08:57:03 am »
The consequences of tenure. Unions are usually a great thing, but stuff like this is why there needs to be some balance.
in england there's an outside agency called OFSTED that periodically grades schools and teachers' performances. stressful and all teachers in england hate it, but it seems to work to some extent - to keep the teachers on their toes if not anything else

all performance grading in korea seems to be done half-arsed and in-house (i think?), so it seems there's no real incentive to do a good job

I've never seen so many rubber stamps and farces than over here.
I'll never forget my CT's, from 2yrs ago, open class. She'd just come back from teacher training in NZ and present in class to see what she'd learned were: the principal, vp, head teacher, about 14 teachers from different schools around the city, officials from the MOE and officials from the POE.
The lesson couldn't have bombed more epically than if she made a conscious effort to do so, students were throwing stationary around the class, it took 20min to explain the game which every student ignored the rules for (she would've taken longer, but the bell actually cut her off mid explanation), when reviewing (after the bell rang), not one student could remember a single key expression.
End of the lesson, she got loud applause!

The entire Epik programme, massive farce. Our renewal interviews, complete farce.

Everything seems to boil down to interpersonal relationships, specifically, do your superiors like you.

Your grounds for promotion, renewal or approval (or their opposites) oftentimes cannot be legally put onto paper. Usually, your boss likes you because you don't cause problems and do your job, then again, maybe your boss doesn't like you because you didn't kiss enough ass, perhaps he likes you because you downed half your weight in alcohol at the hweshik.

The farce of an interview or review will reflect your underlying relationship.
This entire system needs to be scrapped. Performance needs to be the sole metric.
but who would measure your performances? it seems like no korean teachers have had any proper ESL/EFL training (come to that, do many native teachers?). in the past, when i had open classes, the principal was critical of my classes, even though he had no understanding of what was happening - he didn't speak a word of english. other times, korean teachers told me i did an amazing job, when they only turned up for 2 minutes and left

i've heard many stories of native teachers losing their jobs because somebody had a grudge against them at school, and they weren't renewed and had to leave korea; even the MOE refused to help. there's a ton of these stories on the LOFT facebook group. pretty lame

That's what happened to one of my English friends recently. He was working super hard for his students here, even when we'd hang out on the weekends, he'd bring his laptop to work on his lessons. His students loved him, but his older co-teachers hated him (he had 6 co-T's at 1 school, and the 3 older ones were the ones who got to decide if he could renew), the younger ones liked him though.
The older one's didn't like that the students were enjoying his lessons, and felt like they were losing face, because their lessons weren't as good as his. So, at renewal time, they said no.

His old students have actually contacted him a few times, to say they don't like the new teacher, because the new teacher is very boring. He thinks, the older teachers are trying to force the new teacher to be boring, based on what happened with him.


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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #8932 on: October 15, 2018, 09:35:54 am »
The reason I think this is happening is because teachers get harassed by parents and from a teacher's perspective it's not worth it to go to battle against White Wine or Tiger Moms who have nothing better to do.

Haven't come across this expression before, and Urban Dictionary is only giving me smut. I have a general sense of what it might mean, but... my general guesses usually end up embarrassing me, so...

A White Wine Mom in my mind has kid(s) and kind of regrets it. She thought it would be more like what she's seen on TV and movies. She's overwhelmed. Her husband works as a highly placed executive at a company which we all purchase products from. The family's finances are so safe that outside help can be paid for to do most of the parenting. Her friends hired Filipinas, so she does the same. Her kid accidentally called the nanny, mom. She was angry, but also felt a tinge of guilt. As they leave for the playground, she glances into her glass-door refrigerator, then at the kitchen clock. It's not too early, she tells herself.
That was beautiful. Brought a tear to my eye, it did.  :cry:
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 09:56:49 am by kyndo »


Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #8933 on: October 15, 2018, 09:55:38 am »
People who put their feet up on chairs really bug me.  I mean, sitting down and then resting both feet on the seat of another chair. 

I see it everywhere I go so is it acceptable in Korea?  My students do it in class, my coworkers do it in the office, and I've seen people in coffee shops doing it.

I don't know why it annoys me so much. 


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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #8934 on: October 15, 2018, 09:58:05 am »
People who put their feet up on chairs really bug me.  I mean, sitting down and then resting both feet on the seat of another chair. 

I see it everywhere I go so is it acceptable in Korea?  My students do it in class, my coworkers do it in the office, and I've seen people in coffee shops doing it.

I don't know why it annoys me so much.

Used to do it in NZ myself. My friends used to do it as well.
I think it is an easier way to relax. But, in NZ, we'd give up the extra seat to people who need it. :p


Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #8935 on: October 15, 2018, 10:04:35 am »
People who put their feet up on chairs really bug me.  I mean, sitting down and then resting both feet on the seat of another chair. 

I see it everywhere I go so is it acceptable in Korea?  My students do it in class, my coworkers do it in the office, and I've seen people in coffee shops doing it.

I don't know why it annoys me so much.

Used to do it in NZ myself. My friends used to do it as well.
I think it is an easier way to relax. But, in NZ, we'd give up the extra seat to people who need it. :p

It must be the Brit in me then.  We'd call it "uncouth" haha.


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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #8936 on: October 15, 2018, 10:13:19 am »
People who put their feet up on chairs really bug me.  I mean, sitting down and then resting both feet on the seat of another chair. 

I see it everywhere I go so is it acceptable in Korea?  My students do it in class, my coworkers do it in the office, and I've seen people in coffee shops doing it.

I don't know why it annoys me so much.

Used to do it in NZ myself. My friends used to do it as well.
I think it is an easier way to relax. But, in NZ, we'd give up the extra seat to people who need it. :p

It must be the Brit in me then.  We'd call it "uncouth" haha.

It's not common in NZ, and usually not done in public places. Like, you wouldn't see people in a cafe doing it.
But sometimes at home, or students in a classroom outside of class-time, might do it if there is an available chair :P


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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #8937 on: October 15, 2018, 10:23:51 am »
People who put their feet up on chairs really bug me.  I mean, sitting down and then resting both feet on the seat of another chair. 

I see it everywhere I go so is it acceptable in Korea?  My students do it in class, my coworkers do it in the office, and I've seen people in coffee shops doing it.

I don't know why it annoys me so much.
yeah, it's one of those weird double standards in korea

putting both feet on a chair -> mostly fine
but wearing shoes inside your home -> ew, dirty!

wearing indoor slippers outside and to the bathroom -> fine
wearing your normal shoes in the classroom -> ew, dirty!


Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #8938 on: October 15, 2018, 10:31:51 am »
People who put their feet up on chairs really bug me.  I mean, sitting down and then resting both feet on the seat of another chair. 

I see it everywhere I go so is it acceptable in Korea?  My students do it in class, my coworkers do it in the office, and I've seen people in coffee shops doing it.

I don't know why it annoys me so much.
yeah, it's one of those weird double standards in korea

putting both feet on a chair -> mostly fine
but wearing shoes inside your home -> ew, dirty!

wearing indoor slippers outside and to the bathroom -> fine
wearing your normal shoes in the classroom -> ew, dirty!

On the empty seat next to you in the cinema right next to your head  :huh: WTF
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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #8939 on: October 15, 2018, 11:05:28 am »
People who put their feet up on chairs really bug me.  I mean, sitting down and then resting both feet on the seat of another chair. 

I see it everywhere I go so is it acceptable in Korea?  My students do it in class, my coworkers do it in the office, and I've seen people in coffee shops doing it.

I don't know why it annoys me so much.
yeah, it's one of those weird double standards in korea

putting both feet on a chair -> mostly fine
but wearing shoes inside your home -> ew, dirty!

wearing indoor slippers outside and to the bathroom -> fine
wearing your normal shoes in the classroom -> ew, dirty!
I think that part of that is that they all know the rules, but few of them understand the reason for the rules. They see it as etiquette rather than a public health practice.