RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0

I speak 3 languages fluently and 2 on a semi decent level.... and I have never had people mock me and be awful whilst learning those languages like I have experienced with Koreans.

Then you definitely shouldn't worry about not being able to speak Korean!  Hats off to multilinguists

Because of the structure of the Korean language and the simplistic base words, a lot of times, mispronouncing Korean vocabulary means you correctly pronounce a completely different word. It can make your whole sentence incomprehensible, or comical. It's just funny when you're trying to tell your friend their new jacket looks cool, but you accidentally say it looks delicious. Once I thought I was telling my friend "must be nice", and he told me I cursed at him. In other words, you'll probably continue to be mocked if you're learning Korean.

To be honest, I can't help but chuckle too when I hear some foreigners try to speak Korean sometimes. Some very few can speak Korean with pronunciation that can sounds intelligible, but most are difficult to understand.

Most of the time it's not really something to chuckle about... it's just a bit of a confusing situation. One of my friends was once asking for a lid at a Dunkin Donuts, and he repeated himself about 5 times over even trying hard to make his pronunciation even more proper. The waitress just stared at him... then I told her that he needed a lid. Suddenly a light bulb went off in her head, as you could tell from her facial expression. It's not a matter of race either I think as many would claim it is. I'm half and look mostly white. I never have a lot of the problems others claim to have. I've seen many foreigners who complain that Koreans ignore them and such and such but when I hear them speak Korean it makes complete sense as to why. My friend who asked for the lid had a good understanding of the Korean language, but his accent and pronunciation severely masked his understanding of the language and made him sound very unintelligible to natives.

Exactly that! A lot of foreigners that I know, particularly from the US and UK, think grammar and vocabulary are the most important part of learning a language, but for Korean, I feel like pronunciation is the most important part. It's not like speaking English where you can be understood regardless of accent.

It's not like speaking English where you can be understood regardless of accent.

I get what you're getting at, but this isn't exactly 100% true.
Find a monolingual redneck who has never had to deal with anybody with an accent, then stick your coworker in front of them and see exactly how much English can be understood. My guess would be "not so much".

We're all exposed to a great variety of English, and are all to some extent good at parsing broken grammar. Many people aren't, and some of the English that we nod our heads at would confuse the crap out of them.

I suspect that, all things being equal, heavily accented English might be easier to understand than an equally poor Korean... but not by much.

Fair enough point regarding pronunciation, however then perhaps instead of laughing, maybe helping someone with the correct pronunciation would be a better way to address the situation. I cannot for the life of me understand how laughing at someone, or just telling them they are wrong without actually helping is constructive at all. My kids will do that with me. Go over the pronunciation of a word over and over again, until I get it right. Adults seem to just laugh and say "that's wrong", and you are left looking like a right idiot without any form of constructive feedback for improvement. It's almost a sense of "oh well you aren't going to get it perfect, so why bother at all" attitude which really gets to me.

Coming from a country with many accents, many languages, I find that it is exposure to accents and the ability to listen carefully and contextualize things that makes communication easier. From my personal experience, I feel that it is this listening and contextualizing that seems to run short when speaking to some Koreans.

If you mispronounce "28" it can end up being a curse word. Fortunately I've an older brother who studied Korean and taught me the distinction.

It's actually 18

28?

Like he gives 2 f*cks

 

It's not like speaking English where you can be understood regardless of accent.

I get what you're getting at, but this isn't exactly 100% true.
Find a monolingual redneck who has never had to deal with anybody with an accent, then stick your coworker in front of them and see exactly how much English can be understood. My guess would be "not so much".

We're all exposed to a great variety of English, and are all to some extent good at parsing broken grammar. Many people aren't, and some of the English that we nod our heads at would confuse the crap out of them.

I suspect that, all things being equal, heavily accented English might be easier to understand than an equally poor Korean... but not by much.

When I was in high school I played WoW and had a 3vs3 arena team (basically a 3 man team in a game) and the other two players I had on my team were a southern cowboy-accented red neck and a person from Singapore. The redneck would constantly complain that he couldn't understand anything the Singaporean was saying, I always have to repeat for the Singaporean...

With that said, English is definitely not simply a language by nature that anyone can be understood regardless of accent. It is actually more the case that we English speakers tend to be more exposed to many various accents due to the world bending over to the English language.

Now to put that into perspective with Korean... it is only recently that many Koreans have heard foreigners speaking crystal clear Korean.

If you mispronounce "28" it can end up being a curse word. Fortunately I've an older brother who studied Korean and taught me the distinction.

It's actually 18

28?

Like he gives 2 f*cks

 

Apparently 28 is worse, but I can't remember why.

It can also be heard in 38, 78, 118, 1,818...

It's not like speaking English where you can be understood regardless of accent.

I get what you're getting at, but this isn't exactly 100% true.
Find a monolingual redneck who has never had to deal with anybody with an accent, then stick your coworker in front of them and see exactly how much English can be understood. My guess would be "not so much".

We're all exposed to a great variety of English, and are all to some extent good at parsing broken grammar. Many people aren't, and some of the English that we nod our heads at would confuse the crap out of them.

I suspect that, all things being equal, heavily accented English might be easier to understand than an equally poor Korean... but not by much.

But my point is that when you mispronounce English, you aren't accidentally saying completely different English words most of the time. And that adds an extra obstacle to things. Plus English-speakers trying to learn Korean is a relatively new thing here, so almost every Korean you come into contact with is going to be that "monolingual redneck". (I'm not trying to call all Koreans rednecks, this is just for comparison).

It's not like speaking English where you can be understood regardless of accent.

I get what you're getting at, but this isn't exactly 100% true.
Find a monolingual redneck who has never had to deal with anybody with an accent, then stick your coworker in front of them and see exactly how much English can be understood. My guess would be "not so much".

We're all exposed to a great variety of English, and are all to some extent good at parsing broken grammar. Many people aren't, and some of the English that we nod our heads at would confuse the crap out of them.

I suspect that, all things being equal, heavily accented English might be easier to understand than an equally poor Korean... but not by much.

But my point is that when you mispronounce English, you aren't accidentally saying completely different English words most of the time. And that adds an extra obstacle to things. Plus English-speakers trying to learn Korean is a relatively new thing here, so almost every Korean you come into contact with is going to be that "monolingual redneck". (I'm not trying to call all Koreans rednecks, this is just for comparison).

It's true, responsibility/respunsibility/respensibility/respinsibility are all the same, virtually. You fu*k up an 아 where an 어 should have been? Total nightmare. 

To be fair though, some peoples' Korean pronunciation is so cringe-worthy that I can completely understand why Korean's don't like hearing it.

Someone butchering a few Korean words and and getting frustrated when someone doesn't get it is the equivalent of when old people just bust out the "hello-hello-wa-you-from? a-mae-li-ca?" because those are the few English words they bothered to learn and they think they're understandable.

Koreans do tend to have a bit of a harder time understanding poor Korean than we do understanding poor English, BUT - yeah, some people, there's a reason nobody understands what you're saying. Because you're literally saying it wrong.

You literally use literally in literally all of your posts. 

But my point is that when you mispronounce English, you aren't accidentally saying completely different English words most of the time. And that adds an extra obstacle to things. Plus English-speakers trying to learn Korean is a relatively new thing here, so almost every Korean you come into contact with is going to be that "monolingual redneck". (I'm not trying to call all Koreans rednecks, this is just for comparison).

Shit down!
I went to the Jew.
I like science and meth.
Crap your hands!
Who wants more lice?

I'm sure everyone on this site has heard those and many, many more while teaching here. There are myriad English words that mean something completely different when mispronounced. I think the second half of your post there is much more relevant. They aren't used to hearing foreigners try to speak their language, but we are.

Re: current conversation on learning Korean

Anyone else get the Korean Stare^TM? You know, when you say something in what you know is perfectly comprehensible Korean and they look at you like you just sprouted a second head and don't even respond to what you said? I feel like that's definitely been the biggest deterrent to me learning Korean in Korea. I still study vocab every day and I got a dang minor in Korean back in university,  but both while studying abroad in Korea and now that I'm working here I felt that Koreans really don't want to speak to Korean language learners.

Probably even worse is when you're struggling to express yourself and they don't offer any words to help. Personally, even before getting licensed to teach and coming over here, if I was talking to a non-native speaker and what they were saying was confusing, I'd ask clarifying questions or suggest words or rephrase what they were saying to make sure I understood. I never get that here. Just the blank stare. Talk about demoralizing!

The two biggest things that put me off continuing to study Korean:

- Anything less than absolute accuracy with grammar, pronunciation and politeness (see CO2's story), then you might as well be speaking Swahili to a Korean person.

- Koreans never, ever slow down when speaking Korean to a foreigner.  It's like an alien concept to them. 

I can't remember who it was but someone on this site made a great point about speaking English to a Korean person; you have to constantly "ride the brake".  I can't understand why Koreans don't do it for us.

These above quotes and a few of the other comments since capture my problems with learning Korean. I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets this. 

It reminds me of the time, early in my stint here, when I went to order a coffee.  Young kid behind the counter, and sure, my pronunciation could not have been perfect, but I was trying....
Me: Coppi joo-say-oh. 
Him: Korean Stare.
Me: cop-pee joo-sah-yoh?
Him: Korean Stare plus tilt of head.
Me: Koppee jew-say-yo?
Him: Korean Stare into space now.
And this continues for at least three more exchanges before it clicks: Ah, koppee! Neh.
I standing in a god-damm coffee shop!!! A coffee shop you work in!! What did you think I was asking for? The crown jewels? Your mother? What?????!!!!

Obviously my fault for imprecise pronunciation.  No lateral thinking or putting pieces together for that boy. 

 

Re: current conversation on learning Korean

Anyone else get the Korean Stare^TM? You know, when you say something in what you know is perfectly comprehensible Korean and they look at you like you just sprouted a second head and don't even respond to what you said? I feel like that's definitely been the biggest deterrent to me learning Korean in Korea. I still study vocab every day and I got a dang minor in Korean back in university,  but both while studying abroad in Korea and now that I'm working here I felt that Koreans really don't want to speak to Korean language learners.

Probably even worse is when you're struggling to express yourself and they don't offer any words to help. Personally, even before getting licensed to teach and coming over here, if I was talking to a non-native speaker and what they were saying was confusing, I'd ask clarifying questions or suggest words or rephrase what they were saying to make sure I understood. I never get that here. Just the blank stare. Talk about demoralizing!

The two biggest things that put me off continuing to study Korean:

- Anything less than absolute accuracy with grammar, pronunciation and politeness (see CO2's story), then you might as well be speaking Swahili to a Korean person.

- Koreans never, ever slow down when speaking Korean to a foreigner.  It's like an alien concept to them. 

I can't remember who it was but someone on this site made a great point about speaking English to a Korean person; you have to constantly "ride the brake".  I can't understand why Koreans don't do it for us.

These above quotes and a few of the other comments since capture my problems with learning Korean. I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets this. 

It reminds me of the time, early in my stint here, when I went to order a coffee.  Young kid behind the counter, and sure, my pronunciation could not have been perfect, but I was trying....
Me: Coppi joo-say-oh. 
Him: Korean Stare.
Me: cop-pee joo-sah-yoh?
Him: Korean Stare plus tilt of head.
Me: Koppee jew-say-yo?
Him: Korean Stare into space now.
And this continues for at least three more exchanges before it clicks: Ah, koppee! Neh.
I standing in a god-damm coffee shop!!! A coffee shop you work in!! What did you think I was asking for? The crown jewels? Your mother? What?????!!!!

Obviously my fault for imprecise pronunciation.  No lateral thinking or putting pieces together for that boy. 

 

Tbf, service workers the world over aren't known for their ability to connect the dots.

It reminds me of the time, early in my stint here, when I went to order a coffee.  Young kid behind the counter, and sure, my pronunciation could not have been perfect, but I was trying....
Me: Coppi joo-say-oh. 
Him: Korean Stare.
Me: cop-pee joo-sah-yoh?
Him: Korean Stare plus tilt of head.
Me: Koppee jew-say-yo?
Him: Korean Stare into space now.
And this continues for at least three more exchanges before it clicks: Ah, koppee! Neh.
I standing in a god-damm coffee shop!!! A coffee shop you work in!! What did you think I was asking for? The crown jewels? Your mother? What?????!!!!

Obviously my fault for imprecise pronunciation.  No lateral thinking or putting pieces together for that boy. 

 

Tbf, service workers the world over aren't known for their ability to connect the dots.

Granted and agreed.  Still pretty frustrating.

The two biggest things that put me off continuing to study Korean:

I can't remember who it was but someone on this site made a great point about speaking English to a Korean person; you have to constantly "ride the brake".  I can't understand why Koreans don't do it for us.

Anytime someone hears anything beyond annyonghaseyo they assume you've mastered the entire language and then carry on at light speed. Ughh. I hate it but I've just had to come to the conclusion that it's nobody's job here to be my language partner (outside of my actual language partner ha) so they're not gonna cut me any slack. I know we do it for them but that's kinda our job as teachers, plus we are in their country so 

On a positive note though I've finally trained a couple co-workers to speak at a reasonable pace when we speak Korean! It's amazing. They picked up on the fact that I was seriously grading my English when speaking with them and now they return the favor! Hallelujah! Only took 2 years but I'll take it 

It reminds me of the time, early in my stint here, when I went to order a coffee.  Young kid behind the counter, and sure, my pronunciation could not have been perfect, but I was trying....
Me: Coppi joo-say-oh. 
Him: Korean Stare.
Me: cop-pee joo-sah-yoh?
Him: Korean Stare plus tilt of head.
Me: Koppee jew-say-yo?
Him: Korean Stare into space now.
And this continues for at least three more exchanges before it clicks: Ah, koppee! Neh.
I standing in a god-damm coffee shop!!! A coffee shop you work in!! What did you think I was asking for? The crown jewels? Your mother? What?????!!!!

Obviously my fault for imprecise pronunciation.  No lateral thinking or putting pieces together for that boy. 

 

Did you... look at the menu and see if there was an item called 'coffee'?

Imagine walking into Starbucks in Canada or something, and just saying, "Coffee please." They'd probably also wait for you to specify what kind of coffee you want, or be confused.

And then imagine, instead of clarifying, saying to the English speaking cashier or barista, "Cawfee plase. Cuffi plaz. Copy plase," and wondering why it's not working.

It's obviously not your fault completely. Literally every expat here has had some sort of similar experience, but miscommunications are not exclusive to Korea.

Oh I totally understand that he would have needed clarification of my order.  He could have easily babbled something to me in Korean that I could have guessed he needed more info.  It's like walking into Baskins Robbins and asking for "Icecream please".  But the complete non-comprehension of what I was saying, you could see it in his eyes, that was what got me.  When he eventually did repeat "Ah, Koppee." I swear he said it EXACTLY as I said it 5 times earlier (well, at least a couple of the attempts I made).  He actually repeated what I said with a confused look on his face the last time, and then the bulb went off.  I'm sure many of us have had similar experiences and felt like a right dill, not just angry at the Korean, but knowing that it's hard to get right, and you don't get cut any slack, you are rarely met halfway and guided even a little bit, and it's frustrating.

I can accept foreigners won't have perfect pronunciation but if you're in a coffee shop then the Korean staffs' ears should be listening out for relevant words.  You're not going to go into a coffee shop and ask for a washing machine.  Just listen.

I was in a restaurant once and I called the waitress over and said "물좀주세요".  She looked at me like I had two heads.  But think...I'm eating in a restaurant so she should already be honing in on specific words.  Even if my pronunciation was terrible, she must have heard the 'm' sound and then the following vowel sound.  So I either want water or radish.  She just carried on staring at me, open-mouthed.

Anyway, I'm flogging a dead horse I know.  I'm making no real attempts to learn Korean these days so I can't exactly moan and complain 

I can accept foreigners won't have perfect pronunciation but if you're in a coffee shop then the Korean staffs' ears should be listening out for relevant words.  You're not going to go into a coffee shop and ask for a washing machine.  Just listen.

I was in a restaurant once and I called the waitress over and said "물좀주세요".  She looked at me like I had two heads.  But think...I'm eating in a restaurant so she should already be honing in on specific words.  Even if my pronunciation was terrible, she must have heard the 'm' sound and then the following vowel sound.  So I either want water or radish.  She just carried on staring at me, open-mouthed.

Anyway, I'm flogging a dead horse I know.  I'm making no real attempts to learn Korean these days so I can't exactly moan and complain 

+1

If you mispronounce "28" it can end up being a curse word. Fortunately I've an older brother who studied Korean and taught me the distinction.

It's actually 18

28?

Like he gives 2 f*cks

 

Apparently 28 is worse, but I can't remember why.

Because 2 is worse than 1 

Anyway. My bad. I'm used to saying 28 since that's my Korean age so I rarely say 18. But like this guy said:

It can also be heard in 38, 78, 118, 1,818...

Guess it just depends on how many you give 

I can accept foreigners won't have perfect pronunciation but if you're in a coffee shop then the Korean staffs' ears should be listening out for relevant words.  You're not going to go into a coffee shop and ask for a washing machine.  Just listen.

I was in a restaurant once and I called the waitress over and said "물좀주세요".  She looked at me like I had two heads.  But think...I'm eating in a restaurant so she should already be honing in on specific words.  Even if my pronunciation was terrible, she must have heard the 'm' sound and then the following vowel sound.  So I either want water or radish.  She just carried on staring at me, open-mouthed.

Anyway, I'm flogging a dead horse I know.  I'm making no real attempts to learn Korean these days so I can't exactly moan and complain 

+1

I definitely get the frustration though. There are times when the thing on the menu is literally in English, and yet somehow it's my pronunciation that's strange. It's definitely a valid point. I just wanted to suggest that their POV might be valid too, at least half the time.