RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0

*napping*
  "Eh, whatever. None of my business.
--------------------------------------------------------
  *napping*
  "What are you doing??"

My similiar experience:

  *napping*
  "Eh, whatever. None of my business.

----------
  *napping*
  *loud and sudden* "ARE YOU SLEEPING?" *giggle*


 

Revenge will be had, oh sweet sweet revenge, cold, sweet revenge.

*napping*
  "Eh, whatever. None of my business.
--------------------------------------------------------
  *napping*
  "What are you doing??"

My similiar experience:

  *napping*
  "Eh, whatever. None of my business.

----------
  *napping*
  *loud and sudden* "ARE YOU SLEEPING?" *giggle*


 

Revenge will be had, oh sweet sweet revenge, cold, sweet revenge.

Mine:

  *Napping*
  Mmm Looks nice  *Sleeps*
  Mmm Looks nice *Sleeps*
  Mmm Looks nice *Sleeps*

  Why not....OFFICE GROUP NAP! *Sleeps*

Korean doesn't use pronouns in the same way as European languages, that's why they make mistakes with them. Like they do with articles.

I don't really buy that as an excuse for a person who's supposed to have studied a language for ten years. Korean has pronouns. They aren't an alien concept. Ask a class of 5th graders what "you" means, and they can tell you, even if they're more likely to just use the name of the person they're talking about instead of the pronoun when they're speaking their own language.

Using them properly can be confusing at first, of course, and mistakes are to be expected from anyone learning a language. Mistakes are likely to continue for things that are completely absent from a learner's language (like articles for Koreans learning English, or subject/topic markers for English speakers learning Korean), but when it's a concept both languages share even though they're used differently, the mistakes should generally becomes less egregious with time.

If you knew an English speaker who had been studying Japanese for ten years and he still kept putting the verb before the object when speaking Japanese, would you shrug it off with "English is an SVO language so it uses verbs and objects differently"?

Korean doesn't use pronouns in the same way as European languages, that's why they make mistakes with them. Like they do with articles.

I don't really buy that as an excuse for a person who's supposed to have studied a language for ten years. Korean has pronouns. They aren't an alien concept. Ask a class of 5th graders what "you" means, and they can tell you, even if they're more likely to just use the name of the person they're talking about instead of the pronoun when they're speaking their own language.

Using them properly can be confusing at first, of course, and mistakes are to be expected from anyone learning a language. Mistakes are likely to continue for things that are completely absent from a learner's language (like articles for Koreans learning English, or subject/topic markers for English speakers learning Korean), but when it's a concept both languages share even though they're used differently, the mistakes should generally becomes less egregious with time.

If you knew an English speaker who had been studying Japanese for ten years and he still kept putting the verb before the object when speaking Japanese, would you shrug it off with "English is an SVO language so it uses verbs and objects differently"?

I feel like a significant factor is that there is very little practical application in a lot of classrooms.  When I took language in school, my teachers made us practice conversation and write our own dialogue all the time.  But here, the focus is on teaching for tests and regurgitation rather than producing their own sentences.  And unless the students study abroad they're probably not going to talk in English at all outside of class.  Most Koreans are probably better at reading/writing than speaking.  Add in the shyness, fear of losing face and being put on the spot, and they just turn into giggly or just declare "sorry, no Korean." 

Korean doesn't use pronouns in the same way as European languages, that's why they make mistakes with them. Like they do with articles.

I don't really buy that as an excuse for a person who's supposed to have studied a language for ten years. Korean has pronouns. They aren't an alien concept. Ask a class of 5th graders what "you" means, and they can tell you, even if they're more likely to just use the name of the person they're talking about instead of the pronoun when they're speaking their own language.

Using them properly can be confusing at first, of course, and mistakes are to be expected from anyone learning a language. Mistakes are likely to continue for things that are completely absent from a learner's language (like articles for Koreans learning English, or subject/topic markers for English speakers learning Korean), but when it's a concept both languages share even though they're used differently, the mistakes should generally becomes less egregious with time.

If you knew an English speaker who had been studying Japanese for ten years and he still kept putting the verb before the object when speaking Japanese, would you shrug it off with "English is an SVO language so it uses verbs and objects differently"?

I feel like a significant factor is that there is very little practical application in a lot of classrooms.  When I took language in school, my teachers made us practice conversation and write our own dialogue all the time.  But here, the focus is on teaching for tests and regurgitation rather than producing their own sentences.  And unless the students study abroad they're probably not going to talk in English at all outside of class.  Most Koreans are probably better at reading/writing than speaking.  Add in the shyness, fear of losing face and being put on the spot, and they just turn into giggly or just declare "sorry, no Korean." 

This is true, I remember going to watch a lesson at a girls' high school and the kids who were sent down to escort me to the teachers room couldn't even tell me that's what they were supposed to be doing.  E.g. 'nice to meet you, welcome to our school, come this way/follow me.' They had to do it all by gestures. The lesson itself was a study of the third conditional or something similar, all conducted in Korean.

I feel like a significant factor is that there is very little practical application in a lot of classrooms.  When I took language in school, my teachers made us practice conversation and write our own dialogue all the time.  But here, the focus is on teaching for tests and regurgitation rather than producing their own sentences.  And unless the students study abroad they're probably not going to talk in English at all outside of class.  Most Koreans are probably better at reading/writing than speaking.  Add in the shyness, fear of losing face and being put on the spot, and they just turn into giggly or just declare "sorry, no Korean." 

Oh, for sure. I don't think Koreans are incapable of becoming fluent or anything, and I really do understand why many of them don't. It's pretty hard to miss after working in the system for a few years, haha.

When people complain about how Koreans who have taken English classes for ten years are still so miserable at it, I think the complaint is often more leveled at the system than at Koreans themselves. Like you said, they teach for tests, not for retention or practical application. It's often frustrating to work in that system, and that frustration can be compounded when faced with its results out on the streets.

The venters don't generally go into that much detail about it, though, so it can come off as a complaint about Korean *people* when it really isn't, and I can see how that might rub some people wrong.

Of course it's entirely possible that some of the people venting about it actually do think it's a problem with Koreans themselves and I'm putting words in their mouths. 

I feel like a significant factor is that there is very little practical application in a lot of classrooms.  When I took language in school, my teachers made us practice conversation and write our own dialogue all the time.  But here, the focus is on teaching for tests and regurgitation rather than producing their own sentences.  And unless the students study abroad they're probably not going to talk in English at all outside of class.  Most Koreans are probably better at reading/writing than speaking.  Add in the shyness, fear of losing face and being put on the spot, and they just turn into giggly or just declare "sorry, no Korean." 

Oh, for sure. I don't think Koreans are incapable of becoming fluent or anything, and I really do understand why many of them don't. It's pretty hard to miss after working in the system for a few years, haha.

When people complain about how Koreans who have taken English classes for ten years are still so miserable at it, I think the complaint is often more leveled at the system than at Koreans themselves. Like you said, they teach for tests, not for retention or practical application. It's often frustrating to work in that system, and that frustration can be compounded when faced with its results out on the streets.

The venters don't generally go into that much detail about it, though, so it can come off as a complaint about Korean *people* when it really isn't, and I can see how that might rub some people wrong.

Of course it's entirely possible that some of the people venting about it actually do think it's a problem with Koreans themselves and I'm putting words in their mouths. 

Word.  I think some people might not realize what the system is like here while others are indeed frustrated with the system itself.  It really truly irks me when I see a KET crush any attempt at creativity by forcing kids to say only what's in the book when they're trying to play around with the language.  Sadly, I see this happen in my elementary schools and then when I'm in my middle schools I and my coTs are trying to encourage creativity but too many students want to just copy or just be told what to do. 

At 100k a session, I can't believe people can be so damn childish and unprofessional.

At 100k a session no wonder you're getting mediocre treatment. Pay a 2 1/2 star price, get a 2 1/2 star result.

Your Spanish may well be terrible, but I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you wouldn't mix up the words for "I" and "you." I certainly wouldn't make that kind of mistake in German, and I only took two years of high school German and haven't been in a German classroom since 1999.

No, but I would be terrible at verb conjugation which is pretty much the same thing. I dunno, I had to take Spanish because it was a requirement and half the time I had earbuds in my coat sleeve and was listening to Juvenile or Master P or 98 Degrees and zoning out and I'd say my experience is pretty typical. is this the product of an American school system that lacks discipline or a culture that doesn't value immigrants or some crap? Is that why our math scores are low? Or is it kids are kids and a lot of them find your subject boring and don't give a crap?

Not every kid is going to like English. Not every kid is going to be interested in it. Lots of kids are going to toss that out of their heads and replace it with some crap from TV, just like we have all done in various subjects we didn't give a shit about.

If you knew an English speaker who had been studying Japanese for ten years and he still kept putting the verb before the object when speaking Japanese, would you shrug it off with "English is an SVO language so it uses verbs and objects differently"?

I knew plenty of immigrants who had varying levels of familiarity with English and still retained minor grammatical errors and so on. It's life. It's what happens in a global society. I don't understand why people get such a stick up their ass over it. Yeah, in your classroom, fine, but outside with random people? In their country? WTF do you expect?

Like I said, this is about as reasonable as some science teacher ranting that some guy he ran into didn't know the difference between Mitosis or Meiosis. Or whether Noble gases are reactive or unreactive. Or (Insert random Algebra problem we'd bomb). Or all the crap that people get wrong when Jay Leno asks them random questions on the street.

Basically what I'm saying, is that people's expectations are unrealistic and unreasonable, and aren't even applied to our kids at home.

Word.  I think some people might not realize what the system is like here while others are indeed frustrated with the system itself.  It really truly irks me when I see a KET crush any attempt at creativity by forcing kids to say only what's in the book when they're trying to play around with the language.  Sadly, I see this happen in my elementary schools and then when I'm in my middle schools I and my coTs are trying to encourage creativity but too many students want to just copy or just be told what to do.

I think the system has produced fair results. It could certainly improve, but its not the disaster many people think it is. I wouldn't base things off of "Random drunk guy at bar, trying to score" or "6th grade kids more concerned with BtS than English".

Also, kids wanting simple direct objectives and trying to copy to get the work done so they can talk or play? Unheard of.

No, but I would be terrible at verb conjugation which is pretty much the same thing.

No, it isn't "pretty much the same thing." Spanish verb conjugation is vastly more complicated than Spanish pronouns, and that's more or less the point. It's acceptable and often even expected that people are going to f*ck up the more complex stuff, especially after enough time has passed since they learned it. We're talking basic stuff here, though. Pronouns. The alphabet. Being able to count past ten. Stuff you learn very early on, and continue to be exposed to throughout your education. Nobody is complaining when someone who took English for ten years can't remember the past participle form of "begin." Well, nobody reasonable, anyway. 

I dunno, I had to take Spanish because it was a requirement and half the time I had earbuds in my coat sleeve and was listening to Juvenile or Master P or 98 Degrees and zoning out and I'd say my experience is pretty typical.

And yet you can remember the basics. Funny how that worked out.

is this the product of an American school system that lacks discipline or a culture that doesn't value immigrants or some crap? Is that why our math scores are low? Or is it kids are kids and a lot of them find your subject boring and don't give a crap?

The American education system is deeply flawed. I'm not sure what point you're trying to prove by pointing that out. The American system being flawed doesn't magically mean the Korean system isn't flawed as well.

Not every kid is going to like English. Not every kid is going to be interested in it. Lots of kids are going to toss that out of their heads and replace it with some crap from TV, just like we have all done in various subjects we didn't give a shit about.

And yet, as you pointed out using your own experience, students can still manage to retain the basics of what they learn.

I knew plenty of immigrants who had varying levels of familiarity with English and still retained minor grammatical errors and so on. It's life. It's what happens in a global society. I don't understand why people get such a stick up their ass over it. Yeah, in your classroom, fine, but outside with random people? In their country? WTF do you expect?

Yes, obviously people will continue to make mistakes even after long periods of time in a country. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I expect otherwise, especially not given the sentence you quoted. I was talking about a hypothetical someone who has taken language classes for ten years, but still continues to make an extremely basic mistake in something that is fundamental to the use of that language.

We aren't talking a first generation Chinese immigrant who learned English through exposure to it over the years and still mixes up definite and indefinite articles or uses the past perfect instead of the past participle. We're talking people who were in English classes for a decade and still mix up "I" "you" "he" and "she."

Like I said, this is about as reasonable as some science teacher ranting that some guy he ran into didn't know the difference between Mitosis or Meiosis. Or whether Noble gases are reactive or unreactive. Or (Insert random Algebra problem we'd bomb). Or all the crap that people get wrong when Jay Leno asks them random questions on the street.

No, you're off base a bit. Dial it back a little on the difficulty scale. English pronouns are something learned extremely early on by Korean learners. Maybe I just went to sh!tty schools, but I didn't learn about the reactivity of Noble gases in 3rd grade science class.

Think more along the lines of not knowing what a cell is, rather than not knowing what mitosis is. Think not being able to solve for X in the equation 2x = 10, rather than not being able to remember the quadratic equation.

Do you know why those Leno segments were popular? Why they were funny? Because the people who got the extremely easy questions wrong look like morons. We think it's unusual and amusing when someone doesn't know an extremely basic thing that we generally assume everyone knows.

Basically what I'm saying, is that people's expectations are unrealistic and unreasonable, and aren't even applied to our kids at home.

I definitely agree that many people have unreasonable expectations of Korean here in Korea with regards to English. I don't think we're entitled to English everywhere we go, and I think it's absurd when people whine about things like that. I'm with you there.

However, as you pointed out with your own Leno example, similar expectations are applied back home. We do expect people to retain basic, foundational knowledge in core subjects, and we even think it's funny when someone doesn't. If it's okay for someone to have an entire TV segment mocking people for not knowing extremely basic things, i think it's okay for an English teacher in Korea to post online about his or her frustrations regarding a perceived inability to retain extremely basic facets of a subject students learn for a decade or more.

Most Koreans younger than 30 have had 12~13 years of English education. Somewhere around 50~75% of them have also had extra English education at a private institution. Then a decent chunk have English language as part of their university studies.

Comparing that to the joke that is foreign language education in most of our countries, is stupid. English is a core subject here. Foreign language is a little more than an afterthought back home. So saying 'i cant remember much of my 3 years of Spanish' means nothing in this conversation.

Couple of things to rant about.
1. Why am I here? Like seriously why? Why does the government pay all this money to bring me here and spend all this money on english learning, when no-one takes it seriously enough to make these kids learn? Like these kids have been taking English lessons since the third grade at least 3 times a week, PLUS imerison classes at least once a week. In addition, many of them go to hagwons for hours on end to learn but yet they CANNOT form a sentence to save their damn lives! Like a fully formed senence is beneath them. By the sixth grade level I expect that you should be able to express your self in at least 2 coherent sentences by now. I dont understand. It is so frustrating. I wish my home country started us on a second language that early, that many times a week. So many of us wouod be flunt or ar least be able to hold a decent conversation in that language by the time we are 12. I dont understand this place.

2. For the love of God, Why do kids who hvae next to no interest in English sign up for English camp?? Like why are you here? You're making my job harder because you refuse to do or say shit. Stay home or go to another camp. I wish my school actually vetted the kids who sign up to make sure they actually want to learn so they can get the full benefits of attending. Sigh, this place.

I feel you on the first one. And it's not just because they are kids either. I've had way too many university age guys try to hit on me unable to form a sentence and who didn't know  that you should not call me "sister" in English. I even went off on one before, because I was so annoyed. I asked him didn't he study English at school? And he said "yes but everyone hates English class" (filling in the blanks here, cos it was more like "yes....all student... english hate" and I said so what? I hated math but I still had to study it or else I didn't get a good grade. University students who don't know the difference between "you" and "I" and here I spent probably half the time & money studying a second language and I still know the basics. Doctors who don't know the days of the week or how to ask "what time?"  Who here doesn't know how to ask "what time?" in whatever language they studied in grade school???


I'm SO happy to hop in this ranting train, because I've been meaning to call out the 20 somethings who don't know that saying "I like my sister" to a foreign girl you're trying to pick up at a club is wrong. Maybe they didn't pay attention, or maybe they really were never taught that Korean honorific rules don't apply to English. And by the way, I never ask that people speak English to me unless they advertise English services. I either get help or come prepared with Korean translations of what I need. But when people do try and speak English to me I see how much of a failure English education here really is. Sure there are a lot of people who took it upon themselves to learn English to communicate if their lifestyle calls for it... but with all the time money and effort this country puts into English it's pretty sad how many people go through the system and come out knowing absolutely nothing.


 "I want go home with me?" okay have fun going home with yourself.

In all fairness, many of us have taken various lessons throughout our lives and many of us are at less than stellar levels of competence. I took piano all through elementary school and into middle school because...I just did...its what kids do. I think I can play the Star Wars theme with one hand and many mistakes. If you think we'd all be fluent in a second language, you're mistaken. And at least our language is similar to the German/French/Spanish we'd be taking.

How about math classes? Would we all be fine at quadratic equations? I remember of the existence of sine, cosine, and tangent. I don't remember what they deal with. I like, remember basic math, a handful of geometry formulas, PEMDAS, and the pythagorean theorem. My chemistry? Shaky at best, more likely insipid. What comes first, order or family? My Spanish? Occasionally its 'stereotypical American bad' other times its worst. I bet there's some person who knows math out there, possibly Korean, who would scream at me for being braindead and blame my education system.

The point is that although we think English is special and that after all these years everyone should be just fine, we need to remember that it is essentially the equivalent of all the stuff we've learned and forgotten- math, obsessive rules of grammar, history, science, tennis, piano, how to get stuff to run in DOS, etc and has been squeezed out in favor of music by our favorite bands, Mortal Kombat codes, baseball stats, The Complete History of Westeros, the entire lineup of Sienar Fleet Systems spacecraft, Simpsons quotes, alcohol, Seinfeld references, etc.

It's called teaching children and them growing up. Deal with it the same way all the other subject teachers do- Understand that for a big chunk most will forget 95%. Some will retain some more than that, and a handful will go on to specialize in whatever you teach and become just as good as you at it.

Welcome to growing old. Welcome to teaching.

While I see where you're coming from, you're off base. I'm not expecting these kids or Koreans in general to be fluent. What I do expect, which is very reasonable, is that you would be able to retain basic information the subject you're studying even if you never remember more complex stuff like subject-verb agreements. I expect at 6th grade that you would be able to say something, anything beyond " My name is ... I'm fine thank you" I expect that if I ask how old are you, you can answer me and tell me your age. You have been studying this for 3 years! In class we're at the stage of you being able to tell me what your plans are for summer vacation and you don't know how to answer how old you are? There is obviously a disconnect with the way they are being taught if they cannot remember basic things.  I am in no way blaming the kids. I blame the teachers, the system that only teaches these kids to memorise and regurgitate without learning how to apply the information. I try to give the the kids context, I try to teach them how to apply what they are learning in real situations but that is not allowed because its not in the book. I know why they never improve, I don't waste my energy anymore because I see them once a week and anything I teach is not reinforced the other 3 days. I just do it the way they want but its still incrediby frustrating.

3 Days left of camp / desk warming until vacation. It's toooooooooooooooooo long.

How did "desk-warming" days become a "thing"?  When I first came to Korea I lived in Jeollanam-do (10 years ago) and nobody ever did a desk-warming day. Ever.  We did long-ass camps (4 weeks), but we got paid for them (like double our salary).  Our main co-teacher was there and helped as well.  It could be fun because the schools had funds to make them so. I didn't mind doing camps, cause I was paid and I had sufficient funds to make them memorable....
What the **** happened? Camps are included in our pay, and there seems to be minimal funds to aid us in our efforts to even make camps fun anymore.....I've used my own funds in my camps........what a ****** wrong-doing on all levels...

How did "desk-warming" days become a "thing"?  When I first came to Korea I lived in Jeollanam-do (10 years ago) and nobody ever did a desk-warming day. Ever.  We did long-ass camps (4 weeks), but we got paid for them (like double our salary).  Our main co-teacher was there and helped as well.  It could be fun because the schools had funds to make them so. I didn't mind doing camps, cause I was paid and I had sufficient funds to make them memorable....
What the **** happened? Camps are included in our pay, and there seems to be minimal funds to aid us in our efforts to even make camps fun anymore.....I've used my own funds in my camps........what a ****** wrong-doing on all levels...

They hired a whole bunch of us. There weren't many waygooks in public school ten years ago (I was the only one in my city) so things were off the cuff and fun. Now there are a whole bunch of us doing it, they have to regulate it into oblivion.

A friend of mine used to make bank off camp programs. They'd pay him a million a month to teach three hours a week. Get a few of those and he was set. Now they've got a bunch of us in their pockets, those programs disappeared.

Just returned from a wonderful vacation to the serenity of my desk. My back slowly gets more crumpled as I slowly but surely **** it up even more due to the futility of this requirement. I love it, love it, loveeeeee it. If they want us to deskwarm, fine. But would it not make more sense if you book your deskwarming days? 8 days in the Summer and the rest is vacation and 10 days in the Winter?

quote - I definitely agree that many people have unreasonable expectations of Korean here in Korea with regards to English. I don't think we're entitled to English everywhere we go, and I think it's absurd when people whine about things like that. I'm with you there

I can't recall anyone on here saying they're entitled to English everywhere they go in Korea. What usually happens is someone complains that the people at immigration or an international hotel or tourist information don't speak English and someone like De Martino accuses them of being whiny entitled westerners with crap Korean language skills, who expect English everywhere they go. And so the cycle continues.

quote - I definitely agree that many people have unreasonable expectations of Korean here in Korea with regards to English. I don't think we're entitled to English everywhere we go, and I think it's absurd when people whine about things like that. I'm with you there

I can't recall anyone on here saying they're entitled to English everywhere they go in Korea. What usually happens is someone complains that the people at immigration or an international hotel or tourist information don't speak English and someone like De Martino accuses them of being whiny entitled westerners with crap Korean language skills, who expect English everywhere they go. And so the cycle continues.

Not in this thread recently, no, you're right. I know I've heard people complaining about a lack English in places where I don't think there's really any reasonable right to expect it, though, both on this site and in real life. I don't mean places like immigration or government offices, I mean places/people like cashiers at convenience stores or salespeople at clothes stores. I think people who complain about it are vastly outnumbered by the people who don't think it's a big deal, but it does happen.

At any rate, I said that mostly in an effort to try to meet Mr.D somewhere in the middle or add something to my post that he could agree with. I find that when you do that with people who will argue about everything, it tempers them a little and makes them a bit more pleasant to deal with than if you just stick to confrontation mode from start to finish.

quote - I definitely agree that many people have unreasonable expectations of Korean here in Korea with regards to English. I don't think we're entitled to English everywhere we go, and I think it's absurd when people whine about things like that. I'm with you there

I can't recall anyone on here saying they're entitled to English everywhere they go in Korea. What usually happens is someone complains that the people at immigration or an international hotel or tourist information don't speak English and someone like De Martino accuses them of being whiny entitled westerners with crap Korean language skills, who expect English everywhere they go. And so the cycle continues.

Not in this thread recently, no, you're right. I know I've heard people complaining about a lack English in places where I don't think there's really any reasonable right to expect it, though, both on this site and in real life. I don't mean places like immigration or government offices, I mean places/people like cashiers at convenience stores or salespeople at clothes stores. I think people who complain about it are vastly outnumbered by the people who don't think it's a big deal, but it does happen.

At any rate, I said that mostly in an effort to try to meet Mr.D somewhere in the middle or add something to my post that he could agree with. I find that when you do that with people who will argue about everything, it tempers them a little and makes them a bit more pleasant to deal with than if you just stick to confrontation mode from start to finish.

I just want to say, that although I argue with you and eggie a fair bit, both of you are top notch posters and make really good points and are good at making arguments and presenting different points of view. I'd also say that neither of you are "haters". Also, eggie and I find points of agreement on other topics so I wouldn't say we're at loggerheads or anything. Heck, even me and gogators! occasionally find ourselves agreeing.

quote - I definitely agree that many people have unreasonable expectations of Korean here in Korea with regards to English. I don't think we're entitled to English everywhere we go, and I think it's absurd when people whine about things like that. I'm with you there

I can't recall anyone on here saying they're entitled to English everywhere they go in Korea. What usually happens is someone complains that the people at immigration or an international hotel or tourist information don't speak English and someone like De Martino accuses them of being whiny entitled westerners with crap Korean language skills, who expect English everywhere they go. And so the cycle continues.

Not in this thread recently, no, you're right. I know I've heard people complaining about a lack English in places where I don't think there's really any reasonable right to expect it, though, both on this site and in real life. I don't mean places like immigration or government offices, I mean places/people like cashiers at convenience stores or salespeople at clothes stores. I think people who complain about it are vastly outnumbered by the people who don't think it's a big deal, but it does happen.

At any rate, I said that mostly in an effort to try to meet Mr.D somewhere in the middle or add something to my post that he could agree with. I find that when you do that with people who will argue about everything, it tempers them a little and makes them a bit more pleasant to deal with than if you just stick to confrontation mode from start to finish.

I just want to say, that although I argue with you and eggie a fair bit, both of you are top notch posters and make really good points and are good at making arguments and presenting different points of view. I'd also say that neither of you are "haters". Also, eggie and I find points of agreement on other topics so I wouldn't say we're at loggerheads or anything. Heck, even me and gogators! occasionally find ourselves agreeing.

Awwwwn...