RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0

*napping*
  "Eh, whatever. None of my business.
--------------------------------------------------------
  *napping*
  "What are you doing??"

Next time:

*napping*
"What are you doing??"

My co will not stop micromanaging my lessons. It didn't bother me when I first started because I was brand new and had no clue what I was doing. But that's not the case anymore. I've already done this camp once already and it went really well. I get that she speaks fluent English and she doesn't want to give up control in the classroom. I would be upset too if a NET came in and tried to do a job that she can do on her own. But still... LET ME DO MY JOB. I put a lot of work into these lessons and I really don't need her changing everything just to have it fit what she thinks it should look like.
Ugh. Rant over.

"I want go home with me?" okay have fun going home with yourself.

스스로 고추를 놀이해요!

Couple of things to rant about.
1. Why am I here? Like seriously why? Why does the government pay all this money to bring me here and spend all this money on english learning, when no-one takes it seriously enough to make these kids learn? Like these kids have been taking English lessons since the third grade at least 3 times a week, PLUS imerison classes at least once a week. In addition, many of them go to hagwons for hours on end to learn but yet they CANNOT form a sentence to save their damn lives! Like a fully formed senence is beneath them. By the sixth grade level I expect that you should be able to express your self in at least 2 coherent sentences by now. I dont understand. It is so frustrating. I wish my home country started us on a second language that early, that many times a week. So many of us wouod be flunt or ar least be able to hold a decent conversation in that language by the time we are 12. I dont understand this place.

2. For the love of God, Why do kids who hvae next to no interest in English sign up for English camp?? Like why are you here? You're making my job harder because you refuse to do or say shit. Stay home or go to another camp. I wish my school actually vetted the kids who sign up to make sure they actually want to learn so they can get the full benefits of attending. Sigh, this place.

I feel you on the first one. And it's not just because they are kids either. I've had way too many university age guys try to hit on me unable to form a sentence and who didn't know  that you should not call me "sister" in English. I even went off on one before, because I was so annoyed. I asked him didn't he study English at school? And he said "yes but everyone hates English class" (filling in the blanks here, cos it was more like "yes....all student... english hate" and I said so what? I hated math but I still had to study it or else I didn't get a good grade. University students who don't know the difference between "you" and "I" and here I spent probably half the time & money studying a second language and I still know the basics. Doctors who don't know the days of the week or how to ask "what time?"  Who here doesn't know how to ask "what time?" in whatever language they studied in grade school???


I'm SO happy to hop in this ranting train, because I've been meaning to call out the 20 somethings who don't know that saying "I like my sister" to a foreign girl you're trying to pick up at a club is wrong. Maybe they didn't pay attention, or maybe they really were never taught that Korean honorific rules don't apply to English. And by the way, I never ask that people speak English to me unless they advertise English services. I either get help or come prepared with Korean translations of what I need. But when people do try and speak English to me I see how much of a failure English education here really is. Sure there are a lot of people who took it upon themselves to learn English to communicate if their lifestyle calls for it... but with all the time money and effort this country puts into English it's pretty sad how many people go through the system and come out knowing absolutely nothing.


 "I want go home with me?" okay have fun going home with yourself.

In all fairness, many of us have taken various lessons throughout our lives and many of us are at less than stellar levels of competence. I took piano all through elementary school and into middle school because...I just did...its what kids do. I think I can play the Star Wars theme with one hand and many mistakes. If you think we'd all be fluent in a second language, you're mistaken. And at least our language is similar to the German/French/Spanish we'd be taking.

How about math classes? Would we all be fine at quadratic equations? I remember of the existence of sine, cosine, and tangent. I don't remember what they deal with. I like, remember basic math, a handful of geometry formulas, PEMDAS, and the pythagorean theorem. My chemistry? Shaky at best, more likely insipid. What comes first, order or family? My Spanish? Occasionally its 'stereotypical American bad' other times its worst. I bet there's some person who knows math out there, possibly Korean, who would scream at me for being braindead and blame my education system.

The point is that although we think English is special and that after all these years everyone should be just fine, we need to remember that it is essentially the equivalent of all the stuff we've learned and forgotten- math, obsessive rules of grammar, history, science, tennis, piano, how to get stuff to run in DOS, etc and has been squeezed out in favor of music by our favorite bands, Mortal Kombat codes, baseball stats, The Complete History of Westeros, the entire lineup of Sienar Fleet Systems spacecraft, Simpsons quotes, alcohol, Seinfeld references, etc.

It's called teaching children and them growing up. Deal with it the same way all the other subject teachers do- Understand that for a big chunk most will forget 95%. Some will retain some more than that, and a handful will go on to specialize in whatever you teach and become just as good as you at it.

Welcome to growing old. Welcome to teaching.

In all fairness, many of us have taken various lessons throughout our lives and many of us are at less than stellar levels of competence. I took piano all through elementary school and into middle school because...I just did...its what kids do. I think I can play the Star Wars theme with one hand and many mistakes. If you think we'd all be fluent in a second language, you're mistaken. And at least our language is similar to the German/French/Spanish we'd be taking.

You make a point, I think the difference is that you wouldn't try to pull a girl by playing her that. hahahahahaha

In all fairness, many of us have taken various lessons throughout our lives and many of us are at less than stellar levels of competence. I took piano all through elementary school and into middle school because...I just did...its what kids do. I think I can play the Star Wars theme with one hand and many mistakes. If you think we'd all be fluent in a second language, you're mistaken. And at least our language is similar to the German/French/Spanish we'd be taking.

You make a point, I think the difference is that you wouldn't try to pull a girl by playing her that. hahahahahaha

Now now, there's always E3/ComicCon. Of course, to get her attention I'd probably have to do it with a midi synthesizer and be dressed as one of Figrin D'an and the Modal Nodes

It's raining sideways... I really hope the weather is decent tomorrow (aka no ferry cancellations) because after camp my vacation starts and I was gonna head to the mainland...

It's raining sideways... I really hope the weather is decent tomorrow (aka no ferry cancellations) because after camp my vacation starts and I was gonna head to the mainland...

Better than it raining upside down!

    ...which I experienced while cycling in Taiwan during typhoon season. I actually managed to achieve lift-off once or twice.
     5/7, would try again! 

Becoming absolutely livid with the aversion to speaking English here.

My Korean is pretty elementary and while I don't expect a Korean person to speak English to me, I do expect it when I pay them to. I'm recovering from an annoying injury and chose to see a specialist, in Seoul, for treatment and rehab. The ads for the specialist brag about English speaking staff. I gave them a call and stressed the point that the doctor and therapist needed to have excellent English skills as I'm the type of person who asks many detailed questions and expects detailed answers... I don't joke around with my health.

I get there and the doctor speaks passable English with bad pronunciation. Furthermore, he and the therapist (same place) contradict one another and when I enquire, I get ambiguous and vague answers. The therapist's English was much worse and while I might've been able to excuse that, she let her English skills and shyness get in the way of doing her job.
She tells me to 'Youtube' how to do the specific exercises and stretches I had to do instead of even making an attempt to explain them. She giggles when trying to speak English and opts to avoid conversation as much as possible, no questions to me, no suggestions, nothing.

At 100k a session, I can't believe people can be so damn childish and unprofessional. 

In all fairness, many of us have taken various lessons throughout our lives and many of us are at less than stellar levels of competence. ...  If you think we'd all be fluent in a second language, you're mistaken. And at least our language is similar to the German/French/Spanish we'd be taking.

My Spanish? Occasionally its 'stereotypical American bad' other times its worst.

It didn't really seem to me like she was expecting fluency or stellar levels of competency from the Koreans she meets. She just thinks their level should be higher than it is. Obviously people forget things when they're out of practice, but there's a limit to that. There's a difference between not remembering the quadratic equation and not remembering basic pronouns in a language you studied for ten years.

Your Spanish may well be terrible, but I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you wouldn't mix up the words for "I" and "you." I certainly wouldn't make that kind of mistake in German, and I only took two years of high school German and haven't been in a German classroom since 1999.

And for what it's worth, I also wouldn't make those mistakes in Arabic, which is as different from English as Korean is, and I haven't been in an Arabic classroom since 2003 or had to use the language since separating from the military in 2006.

As I said in that other thread recently, it's absolutely understandable that many Koreans aren't fluent in English despite studying it for so long. They don't need to use it in their lives, and the system doesn't really set them up to retain anything once they're tested on it. I get that. The issue being discussed here isn't that they aren't fluent, it's how horrendously bad many of them have turned out to be. There's a whooooooole lot of ground between "fluency" and "completely incompetent."

Becoming absolutely livid with the aversion to speaking English here.

My Korean is pretty elementary and while I don't expect a Korean person to speak English to me, I do expect it when I pay them to. I'm recovering from an annoying injury and chose to see a specialist, in Seoul, for treatment and rehab. The ads for the specialist brag about English speaking staff. I gave them a call and stressed the point that the doctor and therapist needed to have excellent English skills as I'm the type of person who asks many detailed questions and expects detailed answers... I don't joke around with my health.

I get there and the doctor speaks passable English with bad pronunciation. Furthermore, he and the therapist (same place) contradict one another and when I enquire, I get ambiguous and vague answers. The therapist's English was much worse and while I might've been able to excuse that, she let her English skills and shyness get in the way of doing her job.
She tells me to 'Youtube' how to do the specific exercises and stretches I had to do instead of even making an attempt to explain them. She giggles when trying to speak English and opts to avoid conversation as much as possible, no questions to me, no suggestions, nothing.

At 100k a session, I can't believe people can be so damn childish and unprofessional.

Don't I need a shot, doctor?



I hope this made you laugh. That sounds like an incredibly frustrating situation~

In all fairness, many of us have taken various lessons throughout our lives and many of us are at less than stellar levels of competence. ...  If you think we'd all be fluent in a second language, you're mistaken. And at least our language is similar to the German/French/Spanish we'd be taking.

My Spanish? Occasionally its 'stereotypical American bad' other times its worst.

It didn't really seem to me like she was expecting fluency or stellar levels of competency from the Koreans she meets. She just thinks their level should be higher than it is. Obviously people forget things when they're out of practice, but there's a limit to that. There's a difference between not remembering the quadratic equation and not remembering basic pronouns in a language you studied for ten years.

Your Spanish may well be terrible, but I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you wouldn't mix up the words for "I" and "you." I certainly wouldn't make that kind of mistake in German, and I only took two years of high school German and haven't been in a German classroom since 1999.

And for what it's worth, I also wouldn't make those mistakes in Arabic, which is as different from English as Korean is, and I haven't been in an Arabic classroom since 2003 or had to use the language since separating from the military in 2006.

As I said in that other thread recently, it's absolutely understandable that many Koreans aren't fluent in English despite studying it for so long. They don't need to use it in their lives, and the system doesn't really set them up to retain anything once they're tested on it. I get that. The issue being discussed here isn't that they aren't fluent, it's how horrendously bad many of them have turned out to be. There's a whooooooole lot of ground between "fluency" and "completely incompetent."

Korean doesn't use pronouns in the same way as European languages, that's why they make mistakes with them. Like they do with articles.

*napping*
  "Eh, whatever. None of my business.
--------------------------------------------------------
  *napping*
  "What are you doing??"

My similiar experience:

  *napping*
  "Eh, whatever. None of my business.

----------
  *napping*
  *loud and sudden* "ARE YOU SLEEPING?" *giggle*


 

Revenge will be had, oh sweet sweet revenge, cold, sweet revenge.

*napping*
  "Eh, whatever. None of my business.
--------------------------------------------------------
  *napping*
  "What are you doing??"

My similiar experience:

  *napping*
  "Eh, whatever. None of my business.

----------
  *napping*
  *loud and sudden* "ARE YOU SLEEPING?" *giggle*


 

Revenge will be had, oh sweet sweet revenge, cold, sweet revenge.

Mine:

  *Napping*
  Mmm Looks nice  *Sleeps*
  Mmm Looks nice *Sleeps*
  Mmm Looks nice *Sleeps*

  Why not....OFFICE GROUP NAP! *Sleeps*

Korean doesn't use pronouns in the same way as European languages, that's why they make mistakes with them. Like they do with articles.

I don't really buy that as an excuse for a person who's supposed to have studied a language for ten years. Korean has pronouns. They aren't an alien concept. Ask a class of 5th graders what "you" means, and they can tell you, even if they're more likely to just use the name of the person they're talking about instead of the pronoun when they're speaking their own language.

Using them properly can be confusing at first, of course, and mistakes are to be expected from anyone learning a language. Mistakes are likely to continue for things that are completely absent from a learner's language (like articles for Koreans learning English, or subject/topic markers for English speakers learning Korean), but when it's a concept both languages share even though they're used differently, the mistakes should generally becomes less egregious with time.

If you knew an English speaker who had been studying Japanese for ten years and he still kept putting the verb before the object when speaking Japanese, would you shrug it off with "English is an SVO language so it uses verbs and objects differently"?

Korean doesn't use pronouns in the same way as European languages, that's why they make mistakes with them. Like they do with articles.

I don't really buy that as an excuse for a person who's supposed to have studied a language for ten years. Korean has pronouns. They aren't an alien concept. Ask a class of 5th graders what "you" means, and they can tell you, even if they're more likely to just use the name of the person they're talking about instead of the pronoun when they're speaking their own language.

Using them properly can be confusing at first, of course, and mistakes are to be expected from anyone learning a language. Mistakes are likely to continue for things that are completely absent from a learner's language (like articles for Koreans learning English, or subject/topic markers for English speakers learning Korean), but when it's a concept both languages share even though they're used differently, the mistakes should generally becomes less egregious with time.

If you knew an English speaker who had been studying Japanese for ten years and he still kept putting the verb before the object when speaking Japanese, would you shrug it off with "English is an SVO language so it uses verbs and objects differently"?

I feel like a significant factor is that there is very little practical application in a lot of classrooms.  When I took language in school, my teachers made us practice conversation and write our own dialogue all the time.  But here, the focus is on teaching for tests and regurgitation rather than producing their own sentences.  And unless the students study abroad they're probably not going to talk in English at all outside of class.  Most Koreans are probably better at reading/writing than speaking.  Add in the shyness, fear of losing face and being put on the spot, and they just turn into giggly or just declare "sorry, no Korean." 

Korean doesn't use pronouns in the same way as European languages, that's why they make mistakes with them. Like they do with articles.

I don't really buy that as an excuse for a person who's supposed to have studied a language for ten years. Korean has pronouns. They aren't an alien concept. Ask a class of 5th graders what "you" means, and they can tell you, even if they're more likely to just use the name of the person they're talking about instead of the pronoun when they're speaking their own language.

Using them properly can be confusing at first, of course, and mistakes are to be expected from anyone learning a language. Mistakes are likely to continue for things that are completely absent from a learner's language (like articles for Koreans learning English, or subject/topic markers for English speakers learning Korean), but when it's a concept both languages share even though they're used differently, the mistakes should generally becomes less egregious with time.

If you knew an English speaker who had been studying Japanese for ten years and he still kept putting the verb before the object when speaking Japanese, would you shrug it off with "English is an SVO language so it uses verbs and objects differently"?

I feel like a significant factor is that there is very little practical application in a lot of classrooms.  When I took language in school, my teachers made us practice conversation and write our own dialogue all the time.  But here, the focus is on teaching for tests and regurgitation rather than producing their own sentences.  And unless the students study abroad they're probably not going to talk in English at all outside of class.  Most Koreans are probably better at reading/writing than speaking.  Add in the shyness, fear of losing face and being put on the spot, and they just turn into giggly or just declare "sorry, no Korean." 

This is true, I remember going to watch a lesson at a girls' high school and the kids who were sent down to escort me to the teachers room couldn't even tell me that's what they were supposed to be doing.  E.g. 'nice to meet you, welcome to our school, come this way/follow me.' They had to do it all by gestures. The lesson itself was a study of the third conditional or something similar, all conducted in Korean.

I feel like a significant factor is that there is very little practical application in a lot of classrooms.  When I took language in school, my teachers made us practice conversation and write our own dialogue all the time.  But here, the focus is on teaching for tests and regurgitation rather than producing their own sentences.  And unless the students study abroad they're probably not going to talk in English at all outside of class.  Most Koreans are probably better at reading/writing than speaking.  Add in the shyness, fear of losing face and being put on the spot, and they just turn into giggly or just declare "sorry, no Korean." 

Oh, for sure. I don't think Koreans are incapable of becoming fluent or anything, and I really do understand why many of them don't. It's pretty hard to miss after working in the system for a few years, haha.

When people complain about how Koreans who have taken English classes for ten years are still so miserable at it, I think the complaint is often more leveled at the system than at Koreans themselves. Like you said, they teach for tests, not for retention or practical application. It's often frustrating to work in that system, and that frustration can be compounded when faced with its results out on the streets.

The venters don't generally go into that much detail about it, though, so it can come off as a complaint about Korean *people* when it really isn't, and I can see how that might rub some people wrong.

Of course it's entirely possible that some of the people venting about it actually do think it's a problem with Koreans themselves and I'm putting words in their mouths. 

I feel like a significant factor is that there is very little practical application in a lot of classrooms.  When I took language in school, my teachers made us practice conversation and write our own dialogue all the time.  But here, the focus is on teaching for tests and regurgitation rather than producing their own sentences.  And unless the students study abroad they're probably not going to talk in English at all outside of class.  Most Koreans are probably better at reading/writing than speaking.  Add in the shyness, fear of losing face and being put on the spot, and they just turn into giggly or just declare "sorry, no Korean." 

Oh, for sure. I don't think Koreans are incapable of becoming fluent or anything, and I really do understand why many of them don't. It's pretty hard to miss after working in the system for a few years, haha.

When people complain about how Koreans who have taken English classes for ten years are still so miserable at it, I think the complaint is often more leveled at the system than at Koreans themselves. Like you said, they teach for tests, not for retention or practical application. It's often frustrating to work in that system, and that frustration can be compounded when faced with its results out on the streets.

The venters don't generally go into that much detail about it, though, so it can come off as a complaint about Korean *people* when it really isn't, and I can see how that might rub some people wrong.

Of course it's entirely possible that some of the people venting about it actually do think it's a problem with Koreans themselves and I'm putting words in their mouths. 

Word.  I think some people might not realize what the system is like here while others are indeed frustrated with the system itself.  It really truly irks me when I see a KET crush any attempt at creativity by forcing kids to say only what's in the book when they're trying to play around with the language.  Sadly, I see this happen in my elementary schools and then when I'm in my middle schools I and my coTs are trying to encourage creativity but too many students want to just copy or just be told what to do. 

At 100k a session, I can't believe people can be so damn childish and unprofessional.

At 100k a session no wonder you're getting mediocre treatment. Pay a 2 1/2 star price, get a 2 1/2 star result.