RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0

Doing the VO stuff was your decision, but as far as materials, assuming you made them during working hours or using tools supplied by your employer, they are called "work product" and belong to the employer. 

I'm glad you have a good relationship with your Cos but this has come up before from people who wanted to destroy every piece of anything out of spite.  This is ill-advised and technically illegal since the stuff you did at work, for work, doesn't belong to you, it belongs to your work.

Yes but what is anyone going to do about it if you don't share your materials?

How did waygook.org user LIC get his name changed to Liechtenstein?

Doing the VO stuff was your decision, but as far as materials, assuming you made them during working hours or using tools supplied by your employer, they are called "work product" and belong to the employer. 

I'm glad you have a good relationship with your Cos but this has come up before from people who wanted to destroy every piece of anything out of spite.  This is ill-advised and technically illegal since the stuff you did at work, for work, doesn't belong to you, it belongs to your work.

Hi. That is so incredibly aggressive and wrong I don't know where to start.

The materials are my own, created using my hardware and licensed programs. Nobody has the right to that intellectual property but me and only I can decide where and when they are to be used. They are most certainly not a ''work product'' and please direct me to where in the contract it states the MOE owns my intellectual property.

No one said anything about destroying anything, these are my materials that I will be using (albeit adapted) in the future. But, should I wish to destroy them it most certainly would not be illegal. After all, they are my intellectual property and nobody owns them but me.

Perhaps you work for a private business. I do not, and my 'employer' owns none (zero) (zilch) (nada) (nothing) of my materials.

Yes but what is anyone going to do about it if you don't share your materials?

<shrug>
This is a bit like returning your shopping cart in the parking lot.  No one will ticket you if you don't do it, it just means you're a complete f*****d.  You're the kind of person we need laws and criminal justice systems and jack-booted police for.  You don't willingly follow the rules, you have be pressured, forced or cowed into doing what is right.

What are your opinions on giving material to Korean teachers when leaving a job? (not uploading to Wayg thats a different thing)

Based on the source of a number of my materials and templates I'd feel obligated to ask Mr. C's permission first. 

Based on the source of a number of my materials and templates I'd feel obligated to ask Mr. C's permission first. 

I'm not going to get into the whole downloading things and passing them off as your own argument. We are all adults and you can choose to work however you wish. Personally, I design, create and deliver my own material from scratch. Again, nobody owns that but me.

I'm an industrial designer so am fully versed on all of the laws surrounding intellectual property and ownership of.

The original question was ethics based, not ownership based.

How did waygook.org user LIC get his name changed to Liechtenstein?

i would love to change my username

I'm not entirely familiar with how the Korean copy-right system works, but I do know that most of its laws are based on American ones, and that in the USA, materials generated by teachers are owned by the School district: teachers have been successfully sued by their employers for selling their lesson materials online (this includes materials generated for class that were done in the teacher's free time).

 

"If your employment contract assigns copyright ownership of materials produced for the classroom to the teacher, then you probably have a green light. Absent any written agreement, however, the Copyright Act of 1976 stipulates that materials created by teachers in the scope of their employment are deemed “works for hire” and therefore the school owns them.

[Many teachers], however, believe that if they create materials on their own time, using their own equipment, they surely have the right to do with them as they please.
“Under the [American] law... this may not make a difference. The issue is whether you created the materials as part of your job duties.”

In 2004, a federal appellate court in New York ruled that “tests, quizzes, homework problems, and other teaching materials” were works made for hire owned by the district and that the “academic tradition” of granting authors ownership of their own scholarly work cannot be applied to materials not explicitly intended for publication."

[Source = NEA]

   Again, this is in the USA, but there's a good chance that it's the same here in Korea as well. I'd love to hear from anybody that can confirm or deny this with links to official sites!

   
...This is all well and good, but in the end, it's hard for a school to claim your work if you've "accidentally" deleted it all from your hard drive... 

I'm not entirely familiar with how the Korean copy-right system works, but I do know that most of its laws are based on American ones, and that in the USA, materials generated by teachers are owned by the School district: teachers have been successfully sued by their employers for selling their lesson materials online (this includes materials generated for class that were done in the teacher's free time).

 [Source = NEA]

   Again, this is in the USA, but there's a good chance that it's the same here in Korea as well. I'd love to hear from anybody that can confirm or deny this with links to official sites!

   
...This is all well and good, but in the end, it's hard for a school to claim your work if you've "accidentally" deleted it all from your hard drive... 

Interesting. But luckily thats not the case with foreign, temp contracted workers in Korea and IP. (aka most of us) Actual workers play by different rules (just look at the vacation and desk warming saga) The only issue you face is using trademarked photos or pictures on PPT's. Ran into this issue when working privately and had to adapt some of my work.

Would be interesting to hear from them actual Korean teachers about this though about the things they produce. I'll go and ask them about their work and get back to you.

<shrug>
This is a bit like returning your shopping cart in the parking lot.  No one will ticket you if you don't do it, it just means you're a complete f*****d.  You're the kind of person we need laws and criminal justice systems and jack-booted police for.  You don't willingly follow the rules, you have be pressured, forced or cowed into doing what is right.

hm, strange shopping trolley analogy. also not sure what the police has to do with not wanting to share materials with undeserving co-workers. none of these things are really the same thing

hm, strange shopping trolley analogy. also not sure what the police has to do with not wanting to share materials with undeserving co-workers. none of these things are really the same thing

Gosh, if only I  had bold-faced the the word "bit" to indicate that it wasn't really the same but a sort of parallel case ...

to indicate that it wasn't really the same but a sort of parallel case ...

well, they're not really though

I'm not going to get into the whole downloading things and passing them off as your own argument. We are all adults and you can choose to work however you wish. Personally, I design, create and deliver my own material from scratch. Again, nobody owns that but me.

I'm an industrial designer so am fully versed on all of the laws surrounding intellectual property and ownership of.

The original question was ethics based, not ownership based.

Thought the obvious glibness was obvious.  Apparently not.  See, what I was implying was that a lot of materials weren't actually created by me, so it's not entirely my decision.  And I meant that flippantly as a small joke. 

I'm not entirely familiar with how the Korean copyright system works,

I'll just add that copyright is just one part of intellectual property ownership. Trademarking, Plans, Designs, Patents all fall under the IP banner. You may well have the right to copy something (perhaps a school wants to use the presentation, for example) maybe you purchased that right (the school may believe because you were salaried that they own the presentation) But that is simply not the case. That does not extend your right to ownership, distribution or publishing of said IP.

The original creator of the work holds all ownership unless given away. (via gifting, trading, dealing etc etc...)

Damn, this takes me back! 

Thought the obvious glibness was obvious.  Apparently not.  See, what I was implying was that a lot of materials weren't actually created by me, so it's not entirely my decision.  And I meant that flippantly as a small joke. 

apologies, been ruddy recording all day and my eyes have given up I think.

Yes, if you are not the IP holder (You copied - legitimately (purchasing) or illegitimately (pirating)) then it's not really an issue. My works are solely my own, I guess thats why it sits a bit in the throat to give them away.

Interesting. But luckily thats not the case with foreign, temp contracted workers in Korea and IP. (aka most of us) Actual workers play by different rules (just look at the vacation and desk warming saga).

But isn't that just due to having different contracts? US NETs play by different rules because we're issued a different set of contracts. I would imagine that intellectual property rights are a lot like labour laws in that they apply to everybody equally. As both public school KETs and NETs are employed by the same employer (Korean ministry of Education), rules applying to IP would be applied in a similar fashion, wouldn't they?

 

The only issue you face is using trademarked photos or pictures on PPT's. Ran into this issue when working privately and had to adapt some of my work.

This is a whole 'nother kettle of fish!
While fair-use regulations obviously do cover the use of trade-marked images and stuff for teaching public school etc, and do not cover stuff that you make to sell, I wonder if fair-use covers materials made by a NET working in a for-profit hagwon?

      As a vaguely related aside, a friend of mine wrote a children's book a little while ago, and hired an artist to draw the pictures. She had mapped out exactly what kind of images go on each pages etc, and had specified that the protagonist of the story should "look a little like Dora the Explorer, but with longer hair". While the artist was very good, they followed instructions maybe a little too closely, and the likeness was... striking. Long story short, whoever owns Dora somehow got wind of this and halted publication due to (I guess) copy-right infringement. Took a looooong time and a lot of effort to set everything straight again. Did end up getting published though, so all's well that ends well, I guess. 

Would be interesting to hear from them actual Korean teachers about this though about the things they produce. I'll go and ask them about their work and get back to you.

Cool!
I'd be interested in knowing official rules, as it's hypothetically possible that I've hypothetically made some money in the distant past generating .ppts and worksheet packages. It would be nice to know if I'm hypothetically breaking IP laws as well as hypothetically not abiding by contractual ones. Hypothetically.

It depends on my relationship with them. If they've been helpful and considerate towards me in general, they can have anything they want.

If they've tried to avoid doing more than the bare minimum or treated me like a chore at all, I straight up tell them no.

With all that being said, though, most KTs don't ask me for my materials, and, whenever they do, it's only for a random ppt here and there.

I wouldn't mind audio recordings, but I'd say no to any video recordings. Just not comfortable with that at all.

And I'm like tyler, I leave most if not all of my materials to a new NET if I'm being replaced at a school anyway. I'm not possessive over my stuff, I just don't want a lazy asshole taking advantage of me, haha.

This, I only got asked by 1 at the end of my first year. I gave it to him as he helped me a lot during that year.

I officially requested a change of one of my travel schools. The students over the last 2 years were really horrible, some good students there, but overshadowed by the bad ones.
This year, the students are only slightly better in the classroom, and not as destructive, so after a bad class 2 weeks ago, I had enough and officially requested a change to a different travel school.
It's become a huge ordeal. All 3 of my schools have contacted about it, the other 2 said there was no problems and stuff, and the co-t at the horrible school, said she doesn't know about any problems there, even though we have discussed them for over 2 years. So tomorrow, I have some official coming to watch how much the students listen to me and I'm worried the co-t is going to try bribe the students in someway to listen to me so I don't get changed. Plus general nerves for having someone watch the class.

well, they're not really though

Well, they are a f*****g bit!

See, some people care about other people, some people not so much.  The former person will put the cart back in the cart return (becasue that is objective good), but the latter person just won't bother.

Similarly, assuming I think my materials in some way help students (an objective good) I will willingly share my materials, even though  the law mights say i have to.  However, a person who doesn't care about objective good will only leave his materials to be shared if he fears the law or some form of repercussions.  However, in the case of leaving your materials in Korea goes, as Kyndo said, you can just tell them Oops, I accidentally erased my thumbdrive. 

So, yeah.  A fair bit of similarlity there. 

I would imagine that intellectual property rights are a lot like labour laws in that they apply to everybody equally.

Correct, the creator of the IP has ownership (unless given away/sold) I presume some businesses include that in the contract. It is most certainly not in mine. Your MOE does not own your IP in any way shape or form unless it includes something they own.
Mine was made by me on my hardware using my licenses. The MOE does not own my time, it is paying me for me for it. They are not paying for my property either! (that would be more expensive than 2.6 mil a month!)

they followed instructions maybe a little too closely, and the likeness was... striking.

I've had similar issues when contracting work. There is 'being inspired' and 'ripping off'.

I'd be interested in knowing official rules, as it's hypothetically possible that I've hypothetically made some money in the distant past generating .ppts and worksheet packages. It would be nice to know if I'm hypothetically breaking IP laws as well as hypothetically not abiding by contractual ones. Hypothetically.

Turns out my lot don't really make their own. The thought of it for the 2nd semester was the reason they were asking for mine! They said they will ask and let me know... (they won't let me know - cba)