RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0

Everyone looked at me like i was the one in the wrong and my wife called me rude after the film ended. Same with escalators, etc. If someone blocks the walking side, no one ever says anything.

Actually, from what I understand, this is where cultural differences come into play. In Korea, people walking up and down the escalators is strongly discouraged. I've seen posters in the subway with little pictures showing that one shouldn't be walking as it's a "safety hazard". Most people don't think to stand to the side because local etiquette doesn't require them to.
   They're not being inconsiderate or ignorant, they just have a slightly different idea of what is polite escalator behaviour.

Ehh, sort of depends.

I've seen everyone do the stand on the right thing and things flow and most of the time if you're coming down the left and someone's blocking it, they'll move or the person they're talking to will move them. Usually it's either some old person who doesn't think they have to move or dipshit kids.

That being said, there was a study done in England (or was it Japan?) where depending on how long they were and how many people were using them, it was actually more efficient overall for people to stand on both sides. Something about how the two disparate groups of lines would result in a riding line that would stretch some distance. But this only works in specific circumstances.

For the average station with light-medium traffic I think stand on the right is the better way to go.

According to impeccable sources:
In the early 2000s, a campaign was "effectively" launched to encourage standing only on the right side to allow other "busy" passengers to walk on the left.

Before long, the formula was causing adverse effects such as walkers bumping against standers or falling down while walking or running. So, the authority discouraged walking and instead encouraged people to stand on both sides.

Source: Impeccable. 

That being said, there was a study done in England (or was it Japan?) where depending on how long they were and how many people were using them, it was actually more efficient overall for people to stand on both sides. Something about how the two disparate groups of lines would result in a riding line that would stretch some distance. But this only works in specific circumstances.

I saw a documentary about the London underground where one of the stewards(?) tried to get people to stand on both sides during the rush hour instead of one side walking. the theory was more people could move up the escalator at any given time, as the side for walking was often empty.  Anyway the experiment failed as people continued to walk.

As far as Korea , or Seoul is concerned, I travel a lot on the subway and walking seems to be acceptable during rush hours, or very busy stations, but kind of frowned upon, or at least not done so much, at other times. 

That being said, there was a study done in England (or was it Japan?) where depending on how long they were and how many people were using them, it was actually more efficient overall for people to stand on both sides. Something about how the two disparate groups of lines would result in a riding line that would stretch some distance. But this only works in specific circumstances.

I saw a documentary about the London underground where one of the stewards(?) tried to get people to stand on both sides during the rush hour instead of one side walking. the theory was more people could move up the escalator at any given time, as the side for walking was often empty.  Anyway the experiment failed as people continued to walk.

yeah, i'm sure *in therory* it works, but people who want to stand don't care if it takes longer, and people  who walk get to where they're going quicker. so, let people do whichever they want. but don't block the way for people who want to walk ffs

yeah, i'm sure *in therory* it works, but people who want to stand don't care if it takes longer, and people  who walk get to where they're going quicker. so, let people do whichever they want. but don't block the way for people who want to walk ffs

While personally I agree as an individual, I can understand that a person in charge of implementing a system, where efficiency and data are emphasized to a greater degree than personal experience, would try and support the no-walking policy and would encourage different behavior. Again, not that I agree with this, just that I understand it.

I do think the people doing these studies ignored, as you said, personal preference in waiting and whether people are willing to accept longer times for not walking vs. those emphasizing speed. Seems to be a bit of a blindspot in all this research. I imagine that if such preferences were somehow analyzed and adjusted for, then it would take an absolute utter horde of people and some serious chaos.

Speaking of all of this, Itaewon station on Halloween is a tragedy waiting to happen.

The authorities should just post a sign saying "High speed lane" over the stairs. Problem solved. 

DeMartino: Speaking as someone who worked in foodservice,... Often they aren't the best and brightest as well.

Can't argue with that.  As for your rather lengthy list of hypotheticals, which single one applied to how ice cream scoops were placed in a cup?

In my daily subway commute, as well as using it on the weekends, overall I've noticed people have really been catching on to having a lane to stand if you wish, and a moving lane if you'd prefer.  As Dmart said it's usually older people who are unfamiliar with the concept of giving a sh*t about strangers or students being goofs.  A lot of the time you'll see the person standing on the left be pulled over by their companion when they sense someone coming.  In my line 4 experience this seems to be the way it works most of the time. 

  Country bumpkin that I was, I didn't ride my first escalator until I was in my teens. Partly because of that I've always thought they were pretty darn cool. That said, I usually take the stairs here in Korea because even if it's not always faster (on those rare occasions when people aren't blocking both sides of the escalator), walking gives the illusion of getting somewhere.
   I'm definitely a proponent of people crowding their lazy butts to the right so that I can walk up.

   That said, the reason why so many people don't do that here in Korea is because there were government programs telling people that they shouldn't walk up or down them:

   Here's another hyperbole filled article (from 2008) about how incredibly dangerous it is to walk on escalators, and that you're basically just vandalizing government property every time you do:



"SEOUL — There’s a new rule for walking on subway escalators: Don’t.

The Seoul Metropolitan Rapid Transit — which runs subway lines five through eight — announced last week it is going to ban people from walking up station escalators because of an increase in accidents, according to a Korea Times report. The report didn’t say what day the new policy will go into effect.

Seoul Metro, the company running subway lines one through four, also is reviewing its escalator policy, according to the report.

Both companies adopted the policy of allowing people to walk on the left as other passengers stood on the right in 2002.

“In 2002, there were 16 accidents on escalators on subway lines five to eight, but the accident rate increased to 87 in 2006, mainly due to walking passengers on escalators,” SMRT spokesman Kim Wan-gi was quoted as saying in the Korea Times report. “We urge passengers not to walk on escalators because it is dangerous.”

Kim said the weight of all the passengers standing on the right also has created mechanical problems, the report said."
{source}

Got told off for walking over to vacant teachers desk and flipping her iphone to silent.

Apparently KAKAO KAKAO KAKAO is the good guy here. 

I mean, that's annoying, but that doesn't give you the right to touch other people's stuff. If someone came and touched anything on my desk, I'd tell them off, too.
Especially my phone.

Why? It was nothing intrusive. It was simply like turning off the TV or radio.

I agree. In fact, the only time it is acceptable to NOT have your phone on silent is when you are in your own home and the phone is not physically on your person.

Got told off for walking over to vacant teachers desk and flipping her iphone to silent.

Apparently KAKAO KAKAO KAKAO is the good guy here. 

I mean, that's annoying, but that doesn't give you the right to touch other people's stuff. If someone came and touched anything on my desk, I'd tell them off, too.
Especially my phone.

Why? It was nothing intrusive. It was simply like turning off the TV or radio.

I agree. In fact, the only time it is acceptable to NOT have your phone on silent is when you are in your own home and the phone is not physically on your person.

Regardless of when a person thinks it’s acceptable to have the ringer volume turned up on one’s phone, the matter is entirely subjective and cannot be forced on other people who choose not to follow a single view or who do not agree with any one single individual’s belief. AvecPrommeFrites went into another teacher’s work space, touched her phone without permission, that is, her personal property. Is hearing the phone ringing constantly annoying? Sure. No disagreements there. But if a Korean teacher did this to you with your phone, how would any of you feel? You’d be angry, I’m sure. You’d be wondering if the teacher tried to get into your phone and might have seen personal messages, etc. At least I would be wondering that. She wasn’t there according to OP, so these might be questions going through her mind.

It boggles my mind that anyone would think your behavior is appropriate, Avec. What is this? Oe-logic? Oeguk-logic? When foreigners do something it’s always ok, but when Koreans do something it’s never ok? Now, maybe this has been going on for a long time and you were really frustrated. Maybe your relationship with this teacher is really poor and your actions were just par for the course. It would make things more understandable, but not excusable. No, your actions were not like turning the TV off. Were you to be turning the TV off, it would invariably be your property, or at least common property.

Objectively speaking, what did you accomplish, right or wrong (and you are wrong)? All you did was make yourself look like an asshole in front of your co-workers. Koreans are noisy people. You’re not going to change their minds by being an asshole. If you don’t like it there are any number of things you (and others) can do. Put in ear plugs. Listen to music with ear phones. Worst case scenario, find another job if you can’t control your behavior. 

Frankly, if you pulled this little stunt in a Western country, Avec, you’d probably be hauled before HR for creating a hostile work environment. You are the problem in your co-workers eyes now. Yes, Koreans do some annoying things that wouldn’t fly in the West. This still does not give you (or anyone) the right to be a jerk and touch someone else’s personal property...personal property that is expensive and undoubtedly contains a great deal of personal information. 

^ /s ?

Frankly, if you pulled this little stunt in a Western country, Avec, you’d probably be hauled before HR for creating a hostile work environment. You are the problem in your co-workers eyes now. Yes, Koreans do some annoying things that wouldn’t fly in the West. This still does not give you (or anyone) the right to be a jerk and touch someone else’s personal property...personal property that is expensive and undoubtedly contains a great deal of personal information. 

Weird accusatory post which seems completely off target.

He went and turned the sound off.  That's it.  If other teachers saw him go over to the phone, turn the sound off and then put it back down, and then go back to his seat, there is no problem here.  Takes 10 seconds.  Done. 

I imagine if someone were to do the same to his phone, he'd be fine with it.  You do realise phones have locks on them?

  hippity hoppity get off my property

Frankly, if you pulled this little stunt in a Western country, Avec, you’d probably be hauled before HR for creating a hostile work environment. You are the problem in your co-workers eyes now. Yes, Koreans do some annoying things that wouldn’t fly in the West. This still does not give you (or anyone) the right to be a jerk and touch someone else’s personal property...personal property that is expensive and undoubtedly contains a great deal of personal information. 

Weird accusatory post which seems completely off target.

He went and turned the sound off.  That's it.  If other teachers saw him go over to the phone, turn the sound off and then put it back down, and then go back to his seat, there is no problem here.  Takes 10 seconds.  Done. 

I imagine if someone were to do the same to his phone, he'd be fine with it.  You do realise phones have locks on them?

mjc8500 is kind of right. What would happen in western countries is irrelevant. Distinguishing universal morals (consideration for others) and cultural norms is oftentimes tricky.
In Confucian cultures, things have to get REALLY bad before you're permitted to call someone out for bad behaviour or even intervene. Everyone knows that I think Confucian culture is completely outdated BS, but again, my opinion on this matter is irrelevant. In the eyes of your co-workers, you probably did something intrusive by touching someone else's property and calling them out for bad behaviour (making them lose face). When people put their phones on the equipment I'm about to use at the gym, I look for them to tell them to move their things, last thing I need is some douchebag telling me I "broke his phone".

The Confucian culture is the reason many westerners, like myself, have a difficult time in Korea, but we're on their turf.

We all might just be blowing this whole thing out of proportion and none of your co-workers gives a hoot.

If i left my phone in a common space and it made enough noise to bother other people and one of them, Korean, Argentinian or stateless refugee, felt aggrieved enough to simply switch it to silent, my reaction wouldn't be anger, or gripes of invasion of privacy. My feeling would be embarrassment that i had imposed my noisy bullshit on others around me. If a poster here posted it from the other side "I left my phone in the office and some Korean teacher switched it to silent because the incessant notification noise annoyed them. Should I call my coordinator to complain?" I would say the same thing to them.

In Confucian cultures, things have to get REALLY bad before you're permitted to call someone out for bad behaviour or even intervene.

Whenever I think, Why doesn't anyone object to this? I remember that in Korea, driving a motorcycle at high speed down a busy sidewalk, steering with one hand and using the other to throw prostitute calling cards at pedestrians' heads, is insufficiently obnoxious to earn even a collective look of disdain.

This phone business looks like quite a divisive issue, like reclining seats on planes. I'd say if a phone rings just once, ignore it, but once I was in a Korean office where someone had gone to a meeting or something and someone was trying to get them on their phone urgently. It went off pretty loudly multiple times (nasty k ballad ring tone) but no one did anything.  Maybe in that situation I'd have intervened if I'd known how to switch it to silent. Generally i'd say if it rings once, only an easily aggrieved person would take action and similarly only an easily aggrieved person would make a big deal out of someone switching their phone to silent. 

Like, duh, not having your phone on silent or vibrate is inconsiderate and rude and also dumb. Especially in an office. And especially especially if you're not even in the office to hear it.

But still. Don't touch other people's stuff.

Like, duh, not having your phone on silent or vibrate is inconsiderate and rude and also dumb. Especially in an office. And especially especially if you're not even in the office to hear it.

But still. Don't touch other people's stuff.

So how far does that go? You are having a meeting in the office and someone who's out of the room's phone rings incessantly, disrupting the meeting. Can't touch it? The "don't touch people's stuff" rule is so sacred that it overrides all common sense?

It's like we have these social norms that should be respected, like don't touch people's shit. But technology and the world has moved ahead of them. If someone had a personal radio on their desk that they left blasting to go teach, can i turn that off? I think it would be expected that I would. Cell phones are a relatively recent innovation, and certainly group chats where you can be receiving multiple notifications per minute are very recent. So we apply the old social ideas to them, as we should. But the other side has to hold up their side of the social contract. You dont want me to touch your shit, then have the courtesy to set the phone to silent. You can't do that? You have foregone your right to the "dont touch my shit" social provision.

The Confucian culture is the reason many westerners, like myself, have a difficult time in Korea, but we're on their turf.

We all might just be blowing this whole thing out of proportion and none of your co-workers gives a hoot.

I agree.  Usually, we weigh up situations case by case.  You react based on what will give you the best outcome.  I suspect judging from Frite's reaction, he'd weigh up the pros and cons of the situation and did what he did.  If it were the VP's phone then he probably wouldn't have done it.  Like you said, bar one co-worker who could be a pain in the bum the whole time, no one else would give a shit.  Or possibly, the other teachers were happy that he did it because they'd just sit and bear it. 

Like the kid around your way who keeps damaging cars, you thought about it, wanted to teach the kid a lesson, went about it the best way to get the best outcome with minimal fuss, the parents got dragged into it and then you realised that they were probably used to him doing this.  I suspect in your case, if it had been a Korean person whose car had been damaged, there would have been similar reactions and ramifications but to a different timescale, all leading to the embarrassment and financial burden of the parents and the total ignorance of their kid.  I think being teachers here, or for my part anyway, has taught me to be more assertive.  If my class is not going well, then I'll do something about it.  Some Korean teachers, just carry on regardless.  It shows more initiative to stop something that is not working or if there is a problem and try to fix it in real-time, than just put up with a stupid situation.  I know we've had these discussions a number of times here about how Koreans aren't really taught to do this with their silly Confucian nonsense. 

Or we may just be blowing this out of all proportion....