RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0

He didn't go through her personal photos, just flipped it over. I always feel it's not okay to call others out in this country. For example, some dickhead kept checking his phone in the cinema, so I told him to stop it. Everyone looked at me like i was the one in the wrong and my wife called me rude after the film ended. Same with escalators, etc. If someone blocks the walking side, no one ever says anything

Well as for the phone thing, I'm not one to go against Avec's judgment here as I don't know the school dynamics and culture, but I can easily imagine someone ranting about how one of the Korean staff just walked over in a huff and touched their phone to put it on silent. I mean, this is kind of easy to imagine a rant with the situations reversed.

I've seen Koreans tell others off. Rarely but it does.

As for escalators there are two ways- you can politely ask them to move. I've done that. However if it's dipshit punk kids I'll either just growl "MOVE" or just straight up walk through them.

The lack of calling people out is the negative side effect of the same mentality that sees generally lower street crime here. Or I guess you could say the lower street crime rate is one positive effect of the negative mentality of not Calling anything out.

Got told off for walking over to vacant teachers desk and flipping her iphone to silent.

Apparently KAKAO KAKAO KAKAO is the good guy here. 

I mean, that's annoying, but that doesn't give you the right to touch other people's stuff. If someone came and touched anything on my desk, I'd tell them off, too.
Especially my phone.

Why? It was nothing intrusive. It was simply like turning off the TV or radio.

With you on this one.  Part of this was discussed on that thread about 'Koreans and Noise' and there have been loads of times when I was sat in the teachers' room and the maths teacher's phone was ringing on full volume when he was in class.  Such a depressing ringtone too.  The Kakao thing is fukcing annoying too, especially if that person is in some active chat group. 

It really is ridiculous how much that happens....it's like logic and reasoning or  critical/creative thinking are scary things

Speaking as someone who worked in foodservice, there were a lot of things we couldn't do which seemed "illogical" but were actually rules, and yes, some of them seemed illogical to us employees as well.

Here's something to remember- A lot of times the person serving you is a minimum wage schlep with a rather indifferent espirit de corps. Often they aren't the best and brightest as well. And often you are about the 20th person of the day to ask for something outside the normal process or gripe at them about something. Add to that a lot of things are computerized and systemized and the slightest deviation can take a significant amount of extra time to deal with and any irregularities can get you accused of theft by an utter ass of a manager. Not to mention you might have a bunch of other customers to deal with, a bunch of people waiting in line, and you don't have time to give the person a 5 minute explanation of the situation. And finally, you might not have been the first person to make this request. Someone else might have and something bad might have resulted. The whole concept relies on customers making relatively standardized orders and a low-wage person churning out as much product as possible.

Now top it all off with the fact that the employee might have extremely limited English skills. And speaking from experience, food service employees back home and I'm guessing here, REALLY don't like being griped at and demanded of by foreign customers. It does trigger some extra level of hostility. A lot of times subtle cues for politeness are unfamiliar to foreign customers and they (usually unintentionally) can come off rude due to not using the subtle cues either in tone or body language or especially with language that natives rely upon to make those kinds of requests or complaints politely. And in the heat of the moment, that can get to people, perhaps even unconsciously and unintentionally. Even if you think your Korean is good, you might be missing out on some subtle cues or it might not be as good as you think it is.

Lastly, I've noticed a lot of these kinds of stories tend to involve the Korea haters and moaners and I have the sneaking suspicion that their attitude here carries over into their interactions and that attitude can be picked up. People who are naturally affable and easy-going tend to be able to get these things done and smooth over these kinds of wrinkles, even with the language and culture barrier.

Either that or these stories DO involve people who have never worked foodservice or a job that has similar levels of high-paceds, systemized customer interaction that has frequent requests (some of them ridiculous or unreasonable) and deals with a constant stream of customer complaints. Off the top of my head, and this was back home, one of my friends was complaining about how they had to pay for extra ketchup packets. As a foodservice veteran, I had to explain to him why this was a thing and that anyone who has worked food service knows the nightmare that can result from having free ketchups. The thing is, even after that explanation he still didn't really "get it". Some people just aren't that good at understanding systems and conceptualizing the whole process and how there are negative actors out there and they aren't the only customer.

As for the classroom example, some of these same concepts can be applied to bureaucracy and internal office dealings as well.

Everyone looked at me like i was the one in the wrong and my wife called me rude after the film ended. Same with escalators, etc. If someone blocks the walking side, no one ever says anything.

Actually, from what I understand, this is where cultural differences come into play. In Korea, people walking up and down the escalators is strongly discouraged. I've seen posters in the subway with little pictures showing that one shouldn't be walking as it's a "safety hazard". Most people don't think to stand to the side because local etiquette doesn't require them to.
   They're not being inconsiderate or ignorant, they just have a slightly different idea of what is polite escalator behaviour.

even though I see others leaving early all the time.....

Too bad you're not a DayNinja, you could sneak out.

What would a DayNinja wear?

Oh, me, me, me!!  It's a popular misconception that ninjas always wear black.  At night maybe, but their main aim is to blend in, so they wear normal clothes so as not to look conspicuous.

Ninja also wore red. Red in battle can/has a psychological effect, which can cause hesitation in battle.
Learnt that in ninja training in Japan. I've done ninja weapons training in Japan. :D (Although. I'm not very good )

A New Zealand Ninja?  Get out of here!

Dressed as a sheep, I bet!

Yeap! NZ Sheep ninja. It's a thing NO ONE would see coming.

To the untrained eye, there is no danger.  But I can count at least 5 New Zealand ninjas there.



Fraught with danger.

Death by sheep ninja is the biggest cause of death in NZ. True story.
NZ is an extremely dangerous place because of them. Best to avoid the place, if you can.

He didn't go through her personal photos, just flipped it over. I always feel it's not okay to call others out in this country. For example, some dickhead kept checking his phone in the cinema, so I told him to stop it. Everyone looked at me like i was the one in the wrong and my wife called me rude after the film ended. Same with escalators, etc. If someone blocks the walking side, no one ever says anything

Well as for the phone thing, I'm not one to go against Avec's judgment here as I don't know the school dynamics and culture, but I can easily imagine someone ranting about how one of the Korean staff just walked over in a huff and touched their phone to put it on silent. I mean, this is kind of easy to imagine a rant with the situations reversed.

I've seen Koreans tell others off. Rarely but it does.

As for escalators there are two ways- you can politely ask them to move. I've done that. However if it's dipshit punk kids I'll either just growl "MOVE" or just straight up walk through them.

The lack of calling people out is the negative side effect of the same mentality that sees generally lower street crime here. Or I guess you could say the lower street crime rate is one positive effect of the negative mentality of not Calling anything out.

true, i can actually imagine that post in here. although not calling people out here is what allows for a lot of shitty behevaiour e.g. even not properly sorting your rubbish, as was mentioneds yesterday. it's possibelt o call people out without expecting violence. this would happen in england. blocking the escalator? you're gonna get asked to move. doesn't always lead to violence ;)

Everyone looked at me like i was the one in the wrong and my wife called me rude after the film ended. Same with escalators, etc. If someone blocks the walking side, no one ever says anything.

Actually, from what I understand, this is where cultural differences come into play. In Korea, people walking up and down the escalators is strongly discouraged. I've seen posters in the subway with little pictures showing that one shouldn't be walking as it's a "safety hazard". Most people don't think to stand to the side because local etiquette doesn't require them to.
   They're not being inconsiderate or ignorant, they just have a slightly different idea of what is polite escalator behaviour.

yeah i'm calling bollocks here. people are *always* walking up and down. everyone knows this. everyone knows right = stand, left = walk. everyone. but nobody ever calls out people for blocking the way.

Everyone looked at me like i was the one in the wrong and my wife called me rude after the film ended. Same with escalators, etc. If someone blocks the walking side, no one ever says anything.

Actually, from what I understand, this is where cultural differences come into play. In Korea, people walking up and down the escalators is strongly discouraged. I've seen posters in the subway with little pictures showing that one shouldn't be walking as it's a "safety hazard". Most people don't think to stand to the side because local etiquette doesn't require them to.
   They're not being inconsiderate or ignorant, they just have a slightly different idea of what is polite escalator behaviour.

Ehh, sort of depends.

I've seen everyone do the stand on the right thing and things flow and most of the time if you're coming down the left and someone's blocking it, they'll move or the person they're talking to will move them. Usually it's either some old person who doesn't think they have to move or dipshit kids.

That being said, there was a study done in England (or was it Japan?) where depending on how long they were and how many people were using them, it was actually more efficient overall for people to stand on both sides. Something about how the two disparate groups of lines would result in a riding line that would stretch some distance. But this only works in specific circumstances.

For the average station with light-medium traffic I think stand on the right is the better way to go.

According to impeccable sources:
In the early 2000s, a campaign was "effectively" launched to encourage standing only on the right side to allow other "busy" passengers to walk on the left.

Before long, the formula was causing adverse effects such as walkers bumping against standers or falling down while walking or running. So, the authority discouraged walking and instead encouraged people to stand on both sides.

Source: Impeccable. 

That being said, there was a study done in England (or was it Japan?) where depending on how long they were and how many people were using them, it was actually more efficient overall for people to stand on both sides. Something about how the two disparate groups of lines would result in a riding line that would stretch some distance. But this only works in specific circumstances.

I saw a documentary about the London underground where one of the stewards(?) tried to get people to stand on both sides during the rush hour instead of one side walking. the theory was more people could move up the escalator at any given time, as the side for walking was often empty.  Anyway the experiment failed as people continued to walk.

As far as Korea , or Seoul is concerned, I travel a lot on the subway and walking seems to be acceptable during rush hours, or very busy stations, but kind of frowned upon, or at least not done so much, at other times. 

That being said, there was a study done in England (or was it Japan?) where depending on how long they were and how many people were using them, it was actually more efficient overall for people to stand on both sides. Something about how the two disparate groups of lines would result in a riding line that would stretch some distance. But this only works in specific circumstances.

I saw a documentary about the London underground where one of the stewards(?) tried to get people to stand on both sides during the rush hour instead of one side walking. the theory was more people could move up the escalator at any given time, as the side for walking was often empty.  Anyway the experiment failed as people continued to walk.

yeah, i'm sure *in therory* it works, but people who want to stand don't care if it takes longer, and people  who walk get to where they're going quicker. so, let people do whichever they want. but don't block the way for people who want to walk ffs

yeah, i'm sure *in therory* it works, but people who want to stand don't care if it takes longer, and people  who walk get to where they're going quicker. so, let people do whichever they want. but don't block the way for people who want to walk ffs

While personally I agree as an individual, I can understand that a person in charge of implementing a system, where efficiency and data are emphasized to a greater degree than personal experience, would try and support the no-walking policy and would encourage different behavior. Again, not that I agree with this, just that I understand it.

I do think the people doing these studies ignored, as you said, personal preference in waiting and whether people are willing to accept longer times for not walking vs. those emphasizing speed. Seems to be a bit of a blindspot in all this research. I imagine that if such preferences were somehow analyzed and adjusted for, then it would take an absolute utter horde of people and some serious chaos.

Speaking of all of this, Itaewon station on Halloween is a tragedy waiting to happen.

The authorities should just post a sign saying "High speed lane" over the stairs. Problem solved. 

DeMartino: Speaking as someone who worked in foodservice,... Often they aren't the best and brightest as well.

Can't argue with that.  As for your rather lengthy list of hypotheticals, which single one applied to how ice cream scoops were placed in a cup?

In my daily subway commute, as well as using it on the weekends, overall I've noticed people have really been catching on to having a lane to stand if you wish, and a moving lane if you'd prefer.  As Dmart said it's usually older people who are unfamiliar with the concept of giving a sh*t about strangers or students being goofs.  A lot of the time you'll see the person standing on the left be pulled over by their companion when they sense someone coming.  In my line 4 experience this seems to be the way it works most of the time. 

  Country bumpkin that I was, I didn't ride my first escalator until I was in my teens. Partly because of that I've always thought they were pretty darn cool. That said, I usually take the stairs here in Korea because even if it's not always faster (on those rare occasions when people aren't blocking both sides of the escalator), walking gives the illusion of getting somewhere.
   I'm definitely a proponent of people crowding their lazy butts to the right so that I can walk up.

   That said, the reason why so many people don't do that here in Korea is because there were government programs telling people that they shouldn't walk up or down them:

   Here's another hyperbole filled article (from 2008) about how incredibly dangerous it is to walk on escalators, and that you're basically just vandalizing government property every time you do:



"SEOUL — There’s a new rule for walking on subway escalators: Don’t.

The Seoul Metropolitan Rapid Transit — which runs subway lines five through eight — announced last week it is going to ban people from walking up station escalators because of an increase in accidents, according to a Korea Times report. The report didn’t say what day the new policy will go into effect.

Seoul Metro, the company running subway lines one through four, also is reviewing its escalator policy, according to the report.

Both companies adopted the policy of allowing people to walk on the left as other passengers stood on the right in 2002.

“In 2002, there were 16 accidents on escalators on subway lines five to eight, but the accident rate increased to 87 in 2006, mainly due to walking passengers on escalators,” SMRT spokesman Kim Wan-gi was quoted as saying in the Korea Times report. “We urge passengers not to walk on escalators because it is dangerous.”

Kim said the weight of all the passengers standing on the right also has created mechanical problems, the report said."
{source}

Got told off for walking over to vacant teachers desk and flipping her iphone to silent.

Apparently KAKAO KAKAO KAKAO is the good guy here. 

I mean, that's annoying, but that doesn't give you the right to touch other people's stuff. If someone came and touched anything on my desk, I'd tell them off, too.
Especially my phone.

Why? It was nothing intrusive. It was simply like turning off the TV or radio.

I agree. In fact, the only time it is acceptable to NOT have your phone on silent is when you are in your own home and the phone is not physically on your person.

Got told off for walking over to vacant teachers desk and flipping her iphone to silent.

Apparently KAKAO KAKAO KAKAO is the good guy here. 

I mean, that's annoying, but that doesn't give you the right to touch other people's stuff. If someone came and touched anything on my desk, I'd tell them off, too.
Especially my phone.

Why? It was nothing intrusive. It was simply like turning off the TV or radio.

I agree. In fact, the only time it is acceptable to NOT have your phone on silent is when you are in your own home and the phone is not physically on your person.

Regardless of when a person thinks it’s acceptable to have the ringer volume turned up on one’s phone, the matter is entirely subjective and cannot be forced on other people who choose not to follow a single view or who do not agree with any one single individual’s belief. AvecPrommeFrites went into another teacher’s work space, touched her phone without permission, that is, her personal property. Is hearing the phone ringing constantly annoying? Sure. No disagreements there. But if a Korean teacher did this to you with your phone, how would any of you feel? You’d be angry, I’m sure. You’d be wondering if the teacher tried to get into your phone and might have seen personal messages, etc. At least I would be wondering that. She wasn’t there according to OP, so these might be questions going through her mind.

It boggles my mind that anyone would think your behavior is appropriate, Avec. What is this? Oe-logic? Oeguk-logic? When foreigners do something it’s always ok, but when Koreans do something it’s never ok? Now, maybe this has been going on for a long time and you were really frustrated. Maybe your relationship with this teacher is really poor and your actions were just par for the course. It would make things more understandable, but not excusable. No, your actions were not like turning the TV off. Were you to be turning the TV off, it would invariably be your property, or at least common property.

Objectively speaking, what did you accomplish, right or wrong (and you are wrong)? All you did was make yourself look like an asshole in front of your co-workers. Koreans are noisy people. You’re not going to change their minds by being an asshole. If you don’t like it there are any number of things you (and others) can do. Put in ear plugs. Listen to music with ear phones. Worst case scenario, find another job if you can’t control your behavior. 

Frankly, if you pulled this little stunt in a Western country, Avec, you’d probably be hauled before HR for creating a hostile work environment. You are the problem in your co-workers eyes now. Yes, Koreans do some annoying things that wouldn’t fly in the West. This still does not give you (or anyone) the right to be a jerk and touch someone else’s personal property...personal property that is expensive and undoubtedly contains a great deal of personal information. 

^ /s ?

Frankly, if you pulled this little stunt in a Western country, Avec, you’d probably be hauled before HR for creating a hostile work environment. You are the problem in your co-workers eyes now. Yes, Koreans do some annoying things that wouldn’t fly in the West. This still does not give you (or anyone) the right to be a jerk and touch someone else’s personal property...personal property that is expensive and undoubtedly contains a great deal of personal information. 

Weird accusatory post which seems completely off target.

He went and turned the sound off.  That's it.  If other teachers saw him go over to the phone, turn the sound off and then put it back down, and then go back to his seat, there is no problem here.  Takes 10 seconds.  Done. 

I imagine if someone were to do the same to his phone, he'd be fine with it.  You do realise phones have locks on them?

  hippity hoppity get off my property

Frankly, if you pulled this little stunt in a Western country, Avec, you’d probably be hauled before HR for creating a hostile work environment. You are the problem in your co-workers eyes now. Yes, Koreans do some annoying things that wouldn’t fly in the West. This still does not give you (or anyone) the right to be a jerk and touch someone else’s personal property...personal property that is expensive and undoubtedly contains a great deal of personal information. 

Weird accusatory post which seems completely off target.

He went and turned the sound off.  That's it.  If other teachers saw him go over to the phone, turn the sound off and then put it back down, and then go back to his seat, there is no problem here.  Takes 10 seconds.  Done. 

I imagine if someone were to do the same to his phone, he'd be fine with it.  You do realise phones have locks on them?

mjc8500 is kind of right. What would happen in western countries is irrelevant. Distinguishing universal morals (consideration for others) and cultural norms is oftentimes tricky.
In Confucian cultures, things have to get REALLY bad before you're permitted to call someone out for bad behaviour or even intervene. Everyone knows that I think Confucian culture is completely outdated BS, but again, my opinion on this matter is irrelevant. In the eyes of your co-workers, you probably did something intrusive by touching someone else's property and calling them out for bad behaviour (making them lose face). When people put their phones on the equipment I'm about to use at the gym, I look for them to tell them to move their things, last thing I need is some douchebag telling me I "broke his phone".

The Confucian culture is the reason many westerners, like myself, have a difficult time in Korea, but we're on their turf.

We all might just be blowing this whole thing out of proportion and none of your co-workers gives a hoot.