Quote from: OnNut81 on October 08, 2019, 12:22:50 pmWhich part is from my imagination? The part where I just copied and pasted what you wrote? Or the part where I inferred your condescending attitude towards women in regards to what they get from music, movies and television?If you think what I wrote below is being condescending towards women, then that's on you. There are two primary components to art- the technical and the emotional. Both are just as important and I think I make that clear. You do realize I am in fact pointing out how people who find ballads inaccessible likely have some sort of emotional resistance/intelligence to deal with them. Feelings of "love" or "sadness" or whatever make them extremely uncomfortable, whereas other people can explore those feeling for 4 minutes and be fine. Their reaction to hearing someone express pain or whatever is to listen and empathize rather than change the channel. QuoteIf this is not how you listen to music, and instead rely almost exclusively on the structural aspects, then I can see how it is inaccessible, just as technically sophisticated but comparatively emotionally barren or vocal-less music would have little appeal to a ballad listener. It can be hard for people more comfortable in technical things to have the emotional sensitivity and acceptance and comfort to be able to listen to songs that express pain, sadness, longing, regret, hope, love, passion, anger, etc. where those emotions can shift and might be subtle, and are often uncomfortable to observe and certainly uncomfortable to experience for people who pride themselves on dispassion and self-control.The clueless people aren't women. It's people who can't understand the appeal of ballads yet claim to be experts on music. If you can't even grasp why people listen to ballads then I don't care how tecnically gifted you are, you are deeply flawed as an artist. I think you're projecting in this case. I'm the one perfectly fine with ballads and understands why people listen to them. Your reaction to my perfectly reasonable explanation was to hallucinate something that wasn't there in order to win an argument and then frame it in a sexist manner.
Which part is from my imagination? The part where I just copied and pasted what you wrote? Or the part where I inferred your condescending attitude towards women in regards to what they get from music, movies and television?
If this is not how you listen to music, and instead rely almost exclusively on the structural aspects, then I can see how it is inaccessible, just as technically sophisticated but comparatively emotionally barren or vocal-less music would have little appeal to a ballad listener. It can be hard for people more comfortable in technical things to have the emotional sensitivity and acceptance and comfort to be able to listen to songs that express pain, sadness, longing, regret, hope, love, passion, anger, etc. where those emotions can shift and might be subtle, and are often uncomfortable to observe and certainly uncomfortable to experience for people who pride themselves on dispassion and self-control.
What you wrote is generally condescending, not just to women. The idea that people don't like coffee shop Korean ballads because they lack the necessary emotional depth or intelligence is risible. These songs sound like Richard Marx or Michael Bolton at their absolute worst. If you're still into that stuff, or late-period Rick Astley, then good for you, enjoy it. There's a reason other people mock it, though. And Korean ballads are fully deserving of the same mockery.
but do you really want them to serve as your general social ambiance?
Do you think that Koreans with broad musical tastes and deep knowledge of musical history are really into the ballads getting pumped out of your average Twosome Place like some kind of malfunctioning sewer pipe? The same stuff that high schoolers go and warble in the noraebang? I very much doubt it. It's as likely as Greil Marcus being a huge Michael Bolton fan. And that's not because the former group of Koreans lacks emotional depth and intelligence.
OK, so a male definitively stating how women view songs, film and art in a different manner is not sexist? Got it. Again, just your words:DeMartino: The audience for ballads is primarily women, who tend to listen to music differently (and view movies, TV, etc). As I mentioned for them they are much more interested in experiencing the emotions of the performer or actor than say in structure/technique/or even story.
There are two primary components to art- the technical and the emotional. Both are just as important and I think I make that clear.
You do realize I am in fact pointing out how people who find ballads inaccessible likely have some sort of emotional resistance/intelligence to deal with them. Feelings of "love" or "sadness" or whatever make them extremely uncomfortable, whereas other people can explore those feeling for 4 minutes and be fine. Their reaction to hearing someone express pain or whatever is to listen and empathize rather than change the channel.
So what things are OK to have strong opinions about?Music? Failures at life, over compensating for their shortcomings. Apparently.Food? An even dispersal across successful backgrounds. Literature? Art?Movies?Architecture?Cars?Sports?
Have you ever noticed the more someone tends to give a shit about music taste (outside of musicians) and judges people on music, the more spectacularly mediocre their life?
With Korean ballads, the "love" and "sorrow" dial is usually turned up to 11... and kept there. Now, there might be some people who enjoy this, just as there are people who enjoy pouring chocolate, honey and 4 cups of sugar over ice-cream, but I'm not one of them. When you turn the dial up to 11, you easily run the risk of crossing the line into contrived, ridiculous and camp, this is one of the reasons people dislike ballads and find them cringey to listen to.
No, since us "technical" musicians have become desensitised to music because of our knowledge of all the musical, technical and theoretical mumbo-jumbo, we've lost touch with emotion. That places you, who doesn't know too much and not too little, as the expert of music... who the heck do you think you are?
Any feeling, be it "love", "sorrow", "anger" or whatever is easily expressible by a skilled musician.
With Korean ballads, the "love" and "sorrow" dial is usually turned up to 11... and kept there.
Korean ballads do not; they're extremely formulaic, same structure, same guitar solo mirroring the melody, same modulation up the circle of 5ths for the final chorus. They're clones, devoid of almost all creativity
Again, it's rather pompous for you to assume that people who dislike ballads in general have emotional immaturity.
I generally stick to instrumental music because even lyrics are usually too to obtrusive for my musical palate, I find instrumental expressions of emotion to be more abstract and have the ability to express in a less clumsy way; Does this make me emotionally stupid?
Exactly. If your expression of sorrow or love consists of wailing "I'm so sad!" and "I really love you!" over an off-the-shelf piano melody, the problem with your music isn't that its emotional depth is too challenging. The problem is that you've created schmaltz
Sadly, I can't say the same about Korean ballads.
Decadent elites, on the other hand, are motivated by some corrupted desire to flaunt their superiority and shame the lower orders. Their opinions aren't worth anything because if something's worth knowing then Joe Six-Pack will already know it. This is BS for so many reasons. In any case, no style of art really comes in for harsher criticism than the experimental and conceptually difficult, mainly because of this inverse snobbery - I don't understand it so it must be garbage. Criticize something popular, though, and you're instantly cast as some kind of posturing elitist.
Quote from: zola on October 14, 2019, 08:56:47 amSo what things are OK to have strong opinions about?Music? Failures at life, over compensating for their shortcomings. Apparently.Food? An even dispersal across successful backgrounds. Literature? Art?Movies?Architecture?Cars?Sports?How many people do you see go "He drives a Ford Escort, what's he thinking???" Aside from Prius snobs or something, most people don't care. Book and art snobs are pretty rare. Heck, most people are just happy you vaguely recognize something. Movies and TV you sometimes get those, but nowhere near the degree of music snobs. But yeah, you have to wonder why some people make such a big deal about how great their taste in music is and why other music is awful.
Book and art snobs are pretty rare.
Martin, you need to learn to quit while you are ahead. Or behind. You are talking utter rubbish here mate.Either you are lying or you have had an incredibly sheltered or restricted social life.I've heard people give each other shit for movies, cars, books, beer, wine, food, choice of holiday destination, sports and countless other things. I'd say the most common is food. The vast majority of people beyond a certain age just don't care enough about music to even discuss it. I can't remember the last time i had an actual conversation with someone about music. Most people just say they "like everything." You are arguing with Aristocrat, who, though can come off as a tad pompous, obviously knows his stuff and then some, when it comes to music. LIC, some 65 year old boomer living in Pattaya. And fka, who is simply giving you his personal opinion on a particular kind of music.I've said it before and i'll say it again your mind seems to be trapped in this high school/90s sitcom time warp and you are constantly tilting at windmills that don't exist. Where the bullies/elitists/whoever are pushing around and hassling the other kids for their music taste thinking they are better then them. This manifests itself in you, a university educated person, willingly voting for Donald Trump.
Quote from: Aristocrat on October 14, 2019, 09:10:05 amNo, since us "technical" musicians have become desensitised to music because of our knowledge of all the musical, technical and theoretical mumbo-jumbo, we've lost touch with emotion. That places you, who doesn't know too much and not too little, as the expert of music... who the heck do you think you are? Lots of times you make tradeoffs between technique, accessibility, emotional expression, innovation, etc. Music that leans more towards the technical is simply one part and people can listen to and enjoy it just as much as someone who is into innovation or someone who wants something that is more accessible and emotional.
This is based on your extensive listening of Korean ballads and familiarity with the genre, as well as your superb Korean language skills?
Did it ever occur to you that you are not the target market, that the people on this Earth don't exist to make music to satisfy you, and you are not the king of music? Besides that, perhaps "creativity" is not the objective with those songs, but rather something else is the goal."I'm feeling sad""Don't worry, I have something new and creative for you."You see what I mean about low emotional intelligence and perhaps some trouble with empathy?
Why? Given the extensive criticism over something as benign as a music choice, examples of utter cluelessness as illustrated above, and the blindspot that for some who are fine with angry rock music, which is fine, but sad ballad music is somehow wrong, yeah I'd say that some people don't have emotional immaturity, but perhaps have some...difficulties with that end of things. As I said, many people place a significant emphasis on maintaining emotional control or stability or avoiding certain feelings, that when some music or something has those, it makes them intensely uncomfortable. Which isn't necessarily any more wrong that certain instruments producing discomfort or someone not liking "angry rock music", just that maybe you shouldn't be so judgmental.
You do realize that the human voice is an instrument and can be incredibly nuanced in the way it expresses emotion, right?