RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0

It sounds like you're conflating genuine snobs and people who take the piss out of stuff. Would you call someone a beer snob who made a joke about Cass and Hite being crap? IE virtually everyone. I wouldn't. Just as I wouldn't assume someone was a music snob because they slagged off K pop. A genuine snob as you describe it would be someone who chose to make his/her taste in music a major part of their identity then came on here going on about all the obscure bands they liked as well as slagging off k pop.  Or someone who kept banging on about how much they're an expert on the subject, and other people are ignorant like Aristocrat. Apart from him, I haven't seen anyone on here like that or in real life since high school/university probably.

Fair point. Though I think it's more than taking the piss and as you say, less than snobbery.

Do you think I'm truly wrong in what attracts people to ballads or the different listening styles? Am I wrong in pointing out that there might be some discomfort in the emotions expressed in ballads and those can be discomforting to some people?

But that would imply that anyone who disliked Korean ballads would dislike all emotional music. That we would all think we are too hard and cool and whatever to open ourselves to emotions conjured in this music. I listen to plenty of music that is designed to be emotional. I'm a weepy son of a bitch.

It's not the emotional content of the song that bothers me. As others have already pointed out, it's the over wrought singing style, saccharine sweet, cheesiness of them. And I have noticed that this kind of faux sentimentality is big here. Obviously it does appeal to people. Many people. That's fine. And it's fine to think it's shit. Like fka said; Michael Bolton. Richard Marx. How often are those poor souls the butt of people's jokes? Also, I dislike corny music of any stripe just as much. I put a lot of post grunge North American rock (3 doors down etc) in the same category as Korean ballads. Guy singing about how hot their girlfriend is while chuggin a beer a riding in a pick up.

I also don't think if i had perfect listening comprehension in Korean and could understand all the lyrics that I would suddenly have an epiphany of appreciation. I listen to plenty of music that isn't sung in English. Spanish, Japanese, Russian, Chinese, German, Hebrew and yes even some Korean music that manages to steer clear of the shlocky cornball tendencies of Korean ballads.

I'd say the picture you are painting, of males being uncomfortable with their emotions and having an adverse reaction when confronted by something that has emotion at the forefront, is from a bygone era. Or a certain subset of males. Guys like LIC and Northstar, who bemoan millennials and "feelings". If anything I'd say guys nowadays are too ruled and in touch with their feelings.

At the end of the day, so many of these arguments start with you having a problem with people having opinions on things. I get that its dickish to use those opinions to put people down. But we are all adults and most of us know it's just messing around.

'll agree that beer snobbery has approached music snobbery levels. There's certainly snobberies and hipsterdoms with other stuff but it's not near as rampant.

I think most people by 35 stop judging people based on if they drive a minivan or a sports car. Sure some do, but most people grow up.

But music seems to be the dominant one. Why not? It's virtually free, so easy for someone to choose it as a way to distinguish themselves.

It sounds like you're conflating genuine snobs and people who take the piss out of stuff. Would you call someone a beer snob who made a joke about Cass and Hite being crap? IE virtually everyone. I wouldn't. Just as I wouldn't assume someone was a music snob because they slagged off K pop. A genuine snob as you describe it would be someone who chose to make his/her taste in music a major part of their identity then came on here going on about all the obscure bands they liked as well as slagging off k pop.  Or someone who kept banging on about how much they're an expert on the subject, and other people are ignorant like Aristocrat. Apart from him, I haven't seen anyone on here like that or in real life since high school/university probably.

If people don't like certain genres, that's fine, it's preference. You can say you like K-ballads and I won't bother you, that's your bag.

If you're going to tell me I'm wrong for arguing that K-pop has a few redeeming qualities or that K-ballads barely qualify as Art, then prove me wrong with a sensible argument. Don't kick the ball if you're not going to play the game.

If you're going to get upset that I'm using knowledge to prove something you can't refute then sorry, not sorry, the problem lies with your sensitive ego and insecurities.

I know very little about brewing coffee, never really liked the stuff. So, if a coffee aficionado decides to tell me how to brew coffee, I'll STFU and hear what he/she has to say. 

As for snobs... trust me, they don't make it far when it comes to understanding music; When you're locked into rejecting  everything other than select music, you won't even hope to get a glimpse of the utter, stupendous and wonderful complexity that is music.

Aristocrat: I know very little about brewing coffee, never really liked the stuff. So, if a coffee aficionado decides to tell me how to brew coffee, I'll STFU and hear what he/she has to say. 

Really?  I also know very little about coffee as I don't drink and don't care one iota about it, so my reaction to some coffee aficionado  trying to tell me about coffee would be to hope they could read the room and stop boring me with their expertise.  Hint, hint. 

yeah that doesn't make sense. if i didn't like coffee, and someone kept telling me i'd like it if i brewed it a certain way - despite me insisting i don't like coffee - i'd be pretty peeved

Aristocrat: I know very little about brewing coffee, never really liked the stuff. So, if a coffee aficionado decides to tell me how to brew coffee, I'll STFU and hear what he/she has to say. 

Really?  I also know very little about coffee as I don't drink and don't care one iota about it, so my reaction to some coffee aficionado  trying to tell me about coffee would be to hope they could read the room and stop boring me with their expertise.  Hint, hint. 

Fascinating, you're engaging in a rather long discussion about music, yet you've no interest in it?

Or... you're interested in music and are willing to engage in an argument, that is until someone who knows more than you comes along. Then you chuck your toys, pout your lips, declare the game boring, blow a raspberry and run home.

"Runaway when you know you can't win"
I should remember that

The ****** loudspeakers are too ****** loud. Why are they always set to deafcon 1?

The ****** loudspeakers are too ****** loud. Why are they always set to deafcon 1?

That's "Defcon 1", not  "deafcon 1", and....
...
... ooooh. I get it! 

How hard would it be for these textbook companies to find someone whose native language is English to proofread these garbage ass textbooks?

Aristocrat: I know very little about brewing coffee, never really liked the stuff. So, if a coffee aficionado decides to tell me how to brew coffee, I'll STFU and hear what he/she has to say. 

Really?  I also know very little about coffee as I don't drink and don't care one iota about it, so my reaction to some coffee aficionado  trying to tell me about coffee would be to hope they could read the room and stop boring me with their expertise.  Hint, hint. 

Fascinating, you're engaging in a rather long discussion about music, yet you've no interest in it?

Or... you're interested in music and are willing to engage in an argument, that is until someone who knows more than you comes along. Then you chuck your toys, pout your lips, declare the game boring, blow a raspberry and run home.

"Runaway when you know you can't win"
I should remember that

As I long suspected, we have a name to add to the list of people who take themselves too seriously to be light heartedly mocked.  I get it, you consider yourself an expert in the study of music and its technical aspects.  You've exhaustedly covered that.  You, however, are clearly, not an expert in reading the room and realise people think your enlightenments on music are boring.  I enjoy music greatly, but I don't really care what's behind the sound.  It's a visceral response for me.  Stop taking yourself so seriously with the "you should care what I say about Korean ballads." attitude.  I don't care.  Most people in this discussion don't seem to care.  I get that's not the response you wanted, but it is the reality.  You've decided there is only one way to discuss and understand music (from your perspective, unsurprisingly) and you're frustrated that your opinions are not getting the respect you feel they deserve. 

Here is a simpler way to understand the situation.  The only person who is impressed with your credentials and understanding of music is...you.  That should make it easy. 

How hard would it be for these textbook companies to find someone whose native language is English to proofread these garbage ass textbooks?

i've posted this before but

a few years ago the publishing company (cheonjae?) came to our school. asked us native teachers (3 of us) what improvements we recommend. we spent an hour suggesting things. they gave us 50k won each. nice.

they completely ignored every single thing we mentioned in the next edition. infact, they did the opposite. ughh

But that would imply that anyone who disliked Korean ballads would dislike all emotional music. That we would all think we are too hard and cool and whatever to open ourselves to emotions conjured in this music. I listen to plenty of music that is designed to be emotional. I'm a weepy son of a bitch.

Well certainly not all. I mean there are people who just have preferences for other kinds of music. But those people generally don't go out of their way to knock something. But I do think it applies to some percentage of the people who don't like Korean ballads. I mean, a lot of the complaints focus on the subject matter of the songs and the underlying feelings.

But you're right that people can get sad and weepy over different kinds of music. I mean, if I want some sad down music, I'd probably go with Hank Sr. over a Korean ballad, but then again I can see why country songs from yesteryear might not appeal to some urban-dwelling woman or man in their 20s-30s.

it's the over wrought singing style, saccharine sweet, cheesiness of them.

I think that's somewhat subjective. As you yourself point out, you find that in other kinds of music, and while some people might despise both, other people might say one is fine but not the other, simply because one is rock and familiar, while the other is Kpop and unfamiliar.

I also don't think if i had perfect listening comprehension in Korean and could understand all the lyrics that I would suddenly have an epiphany of appreciation.

Certainly, but that can be a factor.  Understanding can make a difference.

At the end of the day, so many of these arguments start with you having a problem with people having opinions on things. I get that its dickish to use those opinions to put people down. But we are all adults and most of us know it's just messing around.

True in some cases. I mentioned Disco Demolition Night. To use that again, I'd say a good chunk of people were there just as an amusement. Chant "Disco sucks!" a few times, see some records get blown up, have some brews and watch a ballgame. Whatever. Heck they might even have a few favorite Disco tunes. But there were also some people there who were going beyond that. They were actually angry at Disco. There was resentment that people liked it. That it was taking over their radio stations. That they were being subjected to this "lower" form of music. That they needed to prove that it was inferior and their taste was superior. That's what turned a dumb stunt into a riot. Well, that and drugs and alcohol.

I think just like that, there's this some of the same feelings regarding Kpop as well. Combined with I think, some level of ignorance. It's like the "Why is it so hot in here????" threads. And I point out that for some people, particularly people of African descent or places that are hotter, and women as well, they like things warmer and that's okay. They have just as much a right to a comfortable temperature. I think most people understand this and agree and maybe just hope for some compromise. But I think some people don't really get that. They feel there's a right temperature and it's their temperature. And like the temperature beef, I notice that the people most upset TEND TO be, uh well, common demographically.

As I said, I think Chinguetti was hitting on something when she posted this-

I also notice that a lot of the music trash talking almost exclusively begins whenever a boy band is the subject. Doesn't seem to come up as often when girl groups are mentioned. 

I know very little about brewing coffee, never really liked the stuff. So, if a coffee aficionado decides to tell me how to brew coffee, I'll STFU and hear what he/she has to say. 

I think it's like this-
A: The coffee at Ralph's Diner sucks. How can anyone like that crap? Why do people drink such crap coffee?"
B: I don't think the coffee at Ralph's is that bad. It's not for everyone, but the people there seem to like it. It certainly seems to appeal to a certain demographic of people.
A: They're wrong. It's generic crap coffee. Nothing is original about it. I know, I'm a trained barista and have decades of experience with coffee. For starters they use pre-ground coffee. That's literally the worst thing you can do for your coffee. Don't they know that freshly roasted whole bean coffee ground within 10 minutes of brewing is best because (insert scientific explanation filled with explanations about freshness and grind and blah blah blah)
B: I think they like the coffee because it's $1.25 a cup and you get unlimited refills.
A: That's not the issue. We're discussing what makes good coffee. Do you know that the coffee they use that's preground and freeze-dried isn't even single origin and it's ROBUSTA, not ARABICA??? I mean, it's like these people have never even had a cup or single origin Tanzania Peaberry prepared in a Chemex blah blah blah
B: I think there just looking for the emotional satisfaction of a hot cup of coffee to start their day, plus the waitresses at Ralph's are really nice. I think it's mostly the feeling they get from it.
A: Don't they know that feeling in fact comes from the release and proper execution of the extraction of coffee blah blah blah. I'm an expert. You don't even know what you're talking about. These are the qualities that make a good cup of coffee and the coffee at Ralph's Diner has none of these. I worked at a small time coffee shop that didn't have a big clientele, but I was a serious expert, so I know what people should be looking for in coffee. You don't understand this and that and this.
B: Dude, I'm trying to tell you that doesn't matter. People like the coffee at Ralph's because it's hot and comforting and they can enjoy it over their newspaper and the people at Ralph's are nice.
A: No, you're not listening. I'm an expert. You can't even tell the difference between a City Roast and a Full City Roast. You couldn't tell the difference between an acidic African coffee like Ethiopian Yirgacheffe and a nutty Indonesian Mandheling.
B: I think I know why your coffee shop closed and everyone goes to Ralph's. There's more to "coffee" than just coffee. At least the people at Ralph's don't spend endless hours trying to show everyone what coffee experts they are and ranting about the failings of things.  Your coffee is great, but sometimes you just want a stead cup and your newspaper.
A: You're wrong because I'm a trained expert.

As I said, I think Chinguetti was hitting on something when she posted this-
Quote from: Chinguetti on September 30, 2019, 01:11:57 pm
I also notice that a lot of the music trash talking almost exclusively begins whenever a boy band is the subject. Doesn't seem to come up as often when girl groups are mentioned. 

Is this related to your theory that males who slag off K pop bands do it because they're secretly jealous of their effeminate looks and dance moves?
 
The hype over Big Bang and BTS has far surpassed anything a girl band has produced. If people started bigging up Black Pink or Red Velvet in the same way they do those, fine I'd be more than happy to chip in with my opinion that they're also both crap. 

Aristocrat: I know very little about brewing coffee, never really liked the stuff. So, if a coffee aficionado decides to tell me how to brew coffee, I'll STFU and hear what he/she has to say. 

Really?  I also know very little about coffee as I don't drink and don't care one iota about it, so my reaction to some coffee aficionado  trying to tell me about coffee would be to hope they could read the room and stop boring me with their expertise.  Hint, hint. 

Fascinating, you're engaging in a rather long discussion about music, yet you've no interest in it?

Or... you're interested in music and are willing to engage in an argument, that is until someone who knows more than you comes along. Then you chuck your toys, pout your lips, declare the game boring, blow a raspberry and run home.

"Runaway when you know you can't win"
I should remember that

As I long suspected, we have a name to add to the list of people who take themselves too seriously to be light heartedly mocked.  I get it, you consider yourself an expert in the study of music and its technical aspects.  You've exhaustedly covered that.  You, however, are clearly, not an expert in reading the room and realise people think your enlightenments on music are boring.  I enjoy music greatly, but I don't really care what's behind the sound.  It's a visceral response for me.  Stop taking yourself so seriously with the "you should care what I say about Korean ballads." attitude.  I don't care.  Most people in this discussion don't seem to care.  I get that's not the response you wanted, but it is the reality.  You've decided there is only one way to discuss and understand music (from your perspective, unsurprisingly) and you're frustrated that your opinions are not getting the respect you feel they deserve. 

Here is a simpler way to understand the situation.  The only person who is impressed with your credentials and understanding of music is...you.  That should make it easy. 

Many find musical understanding  fascinating. Take a seat, don't flatter yourself, the last thing I'd give a crap about is trying to impress you... you're approval is not terribly important to me.

You're absolutely hell-bent on believing I'm trying to grandstand. Has the possibility never occurred to you that a person who really has a passion for music simply likes to discuss it? Crazy! I know.
If you find a proper critique on the genres in question boring? Fine, if you can't keep up/are unwilling to participate, leave the discussion.

I made the mistake of assuming a college educated adult might take an interest in learning something new. Obviously, I was wrong.

It would be interesting to compare which would be lower, your interest in my opinion, or my interest in your approval.

Imagine not liking pop music. That must suck.

Imagine not liking pop music. That must suck.

Somehow I manage.

Aristocrat: I know very little about brewing coffee, never really liked the stuff. So, if a coffee aficionado decides to tell me how to brew coffee, I'll STFU and hear what he/she has to say. 

Really?  I also know very little about coffee as I don't drink and don't care one iota about it, so my reaction to some coffee aficionado  trying to tell me about coffee would be to hope they could read the room and stop boring me with their expertise.  Hint, hint. 

Fascinating, you're engaging in a rather long discussion about music, yet you've no interest in it?

Or... you're interested in music and are willing to engage in an argument, that is until someone who knows more than you comes along. Then you chuck your toys, pout your lips, declare the game boring, blow a raspberry and run home.

"Runaway when you know you can't win"
I should remember that

As I long suspected, we have a name to add to the list of people who take themselves too seriously to be light heartedly mocked.  I get it, you consider yourself an expert in the study of music and its technical aspects.  You've exhaustedly covered that.  You, however, are clearly, not an expert in reading the room and realise people think your enlightenments on music are boring.  I enjoy music greatly, but I don't really care what's behind the sound.  It's a visceral response for me.  Stop taking yourself so seriously with the "you should care what I say about Korean ballads." attitude.  I don't care.  Most people in this discussion don't seem to care.  I get that's not the response you wanted, but it is the reality.  You've decided there is only one way to discuss and understand music (from your perspective, unsurprisingly) and you're frustrated that your opinions are not getting the respect you feel they deserve. 

Here is a simpler way to understand the situation.  The only person who is impressed with your credentials and understanding of music is...you.  That should make it easy. 

Many find musical understanding  fascinating. Take a seat, don't flatter yourself, the last thing I'd give a crap about is trying to impress you... you're approval is not terribly important to me.

You're absolutely hell-bent on believing I'm trying to grandstand. Has the possibility never occurred to you that a person who really has a passion for music simply likes to discuss it? Crazy! I know.
If you find a proper critique on the genres in question boring? Fine, if you can't keep up/are unwilling to participate, leave the discussion.

I made the mistake of assuming a college educated adult might take an interest in learning something new. Obviously, I was wrong.

It would be interesting to compare which would be lower, your interest in my opinion, or my interest in your approval.

You find many people in this discussion are finding your musical thoughts fascinating?  We must be reading different threads. 

If I don't want to participate in the discussion I should leave the discussion?  Have you checked the thread title?  If you started a thread "My musings on music by Aristocrat" then I would leave it, but this clearly isn't a discussion centered around your critiques.  In fact, I'd say you keep breaking the flow of the conversation with your "I know better than you, don't ignore my wisdom" interjections.  But, as I thought your high handedness was deserving of some non-malicious mockery I chimed (can I use that term?) in.  But, you're clearly lacking a sense of humour where your knowledge of music is involved. 

You get I'm not interested in your opinion but I don't think your interested in my approval whatsoever.  Good God, it's an anonymous discussion board for ESL teachers deskwarming.  I hope no one is looking for approval here.  However, it does seem with your seventeen years of musical study you're looking for some recognition.  Here?  Come on, man.  This is the ranting/venting mega thread on waygook.  What were you expecting?  Start a thread and get the interested parties under one roof. 

Imagine not liking pop music. That must suck.

Oh you know most do deep down. It's just some desperate attempt to stand out or be rebellious or proclaim their great taste and superiority. If whatever music they were into was popular and pop was more obscure, a good many would proclaim that pop was great.

As I said, I think Chinguetti was hitting on something when she posted this-
Quote from: Chinguetti on September 30, 2019, 01:11:57 pm
I also notice that a lot of the music trash talking almost exclusively begins whenever a boy band is the subject. Doesn't seem to come up as often when girl groups are mentioned. 

Is this related to your theory that males who slag off K pop bands do it because they're secretly jealous of their effeminate looks and dance moves?

I think this might be one of those cases where women know men better than most men know themselves.

Back in the day two of my friends played acoustic guitar (as did many more). Anyways during house parties both would bust theirs out (they were in different circles, so not the same party). But people also wanted to dance and then Top-40, hip-hop, and techno would come on. One dude would play his stuff in the basement or garage or wherever and then when everyone was dancing he was out there too and partying. Those weren't his favorite genres but he was about the party and people. The other would bitch and moan about hip hop and pop and get pissed that everyone was going to go dance and how shallow it was. Both were skilled and both had "good taste" in music.

Was it about music? Or was it about the fact that one knew how to have a good time, while the other was upset he wasn't the center of attention.

I think there's some of dude #2 in all of this as well. Same with Disco Demolition Night. Like, it's pretty obvious. As I've said, the first giveaway is the fact that you don't see Kpop fans going out of their way to trash other music on here. That's a blinking red indicator. Banter is usually a two-way street, but this is one-way.

Having your aesthetic not being popular or even outright rejected is an unnerving experience. Some people easily adapt. "Hey everyone here likes hip-hop, play some hip-hop. Hey everyone here is into country- play some country." Others are unnerved by that. Theyre outside their comfort zone and don't fit in and aren't familiar. They can be discomforted by it.

you don't see Kpop fans going out of their way to trash other music on here. That's a blinking red indicator. Banter is usually a two-way street, but this is one-way.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but I do feel that I have to correct you on this.

A lot of k-pop fans are extremely vocal about the genres they see as inferior. K-pop fans like to trash other genres of music just as much as anybody else does.