RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0

There are two primary components to art- the technical and the emotional. Both are just as important and I think I make that clear.

Wow! When we were discussing K-pop, I approached it from an actual musical perspective, discussing the theory behind the genre and compositions. You went on to retort that "technique isn't everything"... "technical", is a musical term invented by armchair experts, like yourself, to refer to anything they have not studied or are unable to understand. Music is about expressing what you want to the listener. Any technique involved in playing an instrument functions for the purpose of expressing what the musician wants to express more effectively. As for emotion, well, we can all feel that so that puts you in a total position of authority to judge anything music related... No, since us "technical" musicians have become desensitised to music because of our knowledge of all the musical, technical and theoretical mumbo-jumbo, we've lost touch with emotion. That places you, who doesn't know too much and not too little, as the expert of music... who the heck do you think you are?

You do realize I am in fact pointing out how people who find ballads inaccessible likely have some sort of emotional resistance/intelligence to deal with them. Feelings of "love" or "sadness" or whatever make them extremely uncomfortable, whereas other people can explore those feeling for 4 minutes and be fine. Their reaction to hearing someone express pain or whatever is to listen and empathize rather than change the channel.

Any feeling, be it "love", "sorrow", "anger" or whatever is easily expressible by a skilled musician. Not only that, they're also able to control the degree of expression. With Korean ballads, the "love" and "sorrow" dial is usually turned up to 11... and kept there.  Now, there might be some people who enjoy this, just as there are people who enjoy pouring chocolate, honey and 4 cups of sugar over ice-cream, but I'm not one of them. When you turn the dial up to 11, you easily run the risk of crossing the line into contrived, ridiculous and camp, this is one of the reasons people dislike ballads and find them cringey to listen to. At times, K-pop still has an element of creativity in it, Korean ballads do not; they're extremely formulaic, same structure, same guitar solo mirroring the melody, same modulation up the circle of 5ths for the final chorus. They're clones, devoid of almost all creativity and THIS is the main reason for my discomfort.

Again, it's rather pompous for you to assume that people who dislike ballads in general have emotional immaturity.

I generally stick to instrumental music because even lyrics are usually too to obtrusive for my musical palate, I find instrumental expressions of emotion to be more abstract and have the ability to express in a less clumsy way; Does this make me emotionally stupid?

So what things are OK to have strong opinions about?

Music? Failures at life, over compensating for their shortcomings. Apparently.
Food? An even dispersal across successful backgrounds.

Literature?
Art?
Movies?
Architecture?
Cars?
Sports?

I guess if Martin Scorcese had said this about a certain kind of music he would have just been displaying  his mediocrity

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/martin-scorsese-marvel-theme-park-films-205155432.html

Have you ever noticed the more someone tends to give a shit about music taste (outside of musicians) and judges people on music, the more spectacularly mediocre their life? 

Have you ever noticed the more someone complains about others judging other people while doing just that, and by doing post after post on a subject he knows very little about, other than being unable to let something go, the more spectacularly mediocre their life seems? 

It always surprises me how quickly people's opinions will change about others whenever another fellow Korean comes in and starts talking shit. I just can't get over how fast people will flip on each other over nothing but bias.

How some people can be so miserable all of the time, and how others can not only tolerate it but will also feed right into it, is beyond me. Makes me all the more grateful that I don't have to share an office with those people. God knows what they're saying about me BECAUSE I'm not sharing an office, though.

**** them, though.

With Korean ballads, the "love" and "sorrow" dial is usually turned up to 11... and kept there.  Now, there might be some people who enjoy this, just as there are people who enjoy pouring chocolate, honey and 4 cups of sugar over ice-cream, but I'm not one of them. When you turn the dial up to 11, you easily run the risk of crossing the line into contrived, ridiculous and camp, this is one of the reasons people dislike ballads and find them cringey to listen to.

Exactly. If your expression of sorrow or love consists of wailing "I'm so sad!" and "I really love you!" over an off-the-shelf piano melody, the problem with your music isn't that its emotional depth is too challenging. The problem is that you've created schmaltz. Lots of cultures have it, but the Korean variant is notable for its ubiquity and intrusiveness. I mean, I never really have to hear some audience-rousing American Idol performance of "The Lady in Red" if I don't want to. Sadly, I can't say the same about Korean ballads.

The fact that there is a market for schmaltz doesn't exempt if from criticism. The backlash against music snobbery comes with its own set of baggage. As in politics, anti-elitist populism is ironically rooted in a sense of superiority, one in which the "common man" makes sensible decisions based on sincere motives, "real" life experience and tried-and-tested products. Decadent elites, on the other hand, are motivated by some corrupted desire to flaunt their superiority and shame the lower orders. Their opinions aren't worth anything because if something's worth knowing then Joe Six-Pack will already know it.  This is BS for so many reasons. In any case, no style of art really comes in for harsher criticism than the experimental and conceptually difficult, mainly because of this inverse snobbery - I don't understand it so it must be garbage. Criticize something popular, though, and you're instantly cast as some kind of posturing elitist.

Defending Korean ballads is on a par with claiming that Koreans are excellent drivers and more online services should be restricted to Internet Explorer.

So what things are OK to have strong opinions about?

Music? Failures at life, over compensating for their shortcomings. Apparently.
Food? An even dispersal across successful backgrounds.

Literature?
Art?
Movies?
Architecture?
Cars?
Sports?

How many people do you see go "He drives a Ford Escort, what's he thinking???" Aside from Prius snobs or something, most people don't care. Book and art snobs are pretty rare. Heck, most people are just happy you vaguely recognize something.

Movies and TV you sometimes get those, but nowhere near the degree of music snobs. But yeah, you have to wonder why some people make such a big deal about how great their taste in music is and why other music is awful.

No, since us "technical" musicians have become desensitised to music because of our knowledge of all the musical, technical and theoretical mumbo-jumbo, we've lost touch with emotion. That places you, who doesn't know too much and not too little, as the expert of music... who the heck do you think you are?

Lots of times you make tradeoffs between technique, accessibility, emotional expression, innovation, etc. Music that leans more towards the technical is simply one part and people can listen to and enjoy it just as much as someone who is into innovation or someone who wants something that is more accessible and emotional.

Any feeling, be it "love", "sorrow", "anger" or whatever is easily expressible by a skilled musician.

Easily expressed, not necessarily expressed well.

With Korean ballads, the "love" and "sorrow" dial is usually turned up to 11... and kept there. 

This is based on your extensive listening of Korean ballads and familiarity with the genre, as well as your superb Korean language skills?

Korean ballads do not; they're extremely formulaic, same structure, same guitar solo mirroring the melody, same modulation up the circle of 5ths for the final chorus. They're clones, devoid of almost all creativity

Did it ever occur to you that you are not the target market, that the people on this Earth don't exist to make music to satisfy you, and you are not the king of music? Besides that, perhaps "creativity" is not the objective with those songs, but rather something else is the goal.

"I'm feeling sad"
"Don't worry, I have something new and creative for you."

You see what I mean about low emotional intelligence and perhaps some trouble with empathy?

Again, it's rather pompous for you to assume that people who dislike ballads in general have emotional immaturity.

Why? Given the extensive criticism over something as benign as a music choice, examples of utter cluelessness as illustrated above, and the blindspot that for some who are fine with angry rock music, which is fine, but sad ballad music is somehow wrong, yeah I'd say that some people don't have emotional immaturity, but perhaps have some...difficulties with that end of things. As I said, many people place a significant emphasis on maintaining emotional control or stability or avoiding certain feelings, that when some music or something has those, it makes them intensely uncomfortable. Which isn't necessarily any more wrong that certain instruments producing discomfort or someone not liking "angry rock music", just that maybe you shouldn't be so judgmental.

I generally stick to instrumental music because even lyrics are usually too to obtrusive for my musical palate, I find instrumental expressions of emotion to be more abstract and have the ability to express in a less clumsy way; Does this make me emotionally stupid?

You do realize that the human voice is an instrument and can be incredibly nuanced in the way it expresses emotion, right?

Exactly. If your expression of sorrow or love consists of wailing "I'm so sad!" and "I really love you!" over an off-the-shelf piano melody, the problem with your music isn't that its emotional depth is too challenging. The problem is that you've created schmaltz

That's what YOU hear. That's not what is being said. The lyrics are more than that, then you also have to add in the vocalist's performance.

As I said, many listeners, often men, are simply not comfortable with those kinds of emotions and their reactions can be avoidance, disgust, anger, confusion, ridicule, and all the other reactions humans typically have to the unfamiliar and uncomfortable.

It's funny how those things are considered schmaltz, yet some rock song that has anger and rage and destruction dialed up to 11 is somehow fine both musically and emotionally.

Sadly, I can't say the same about Korean ballads.

Yes living in Korea, you are likely to hear Korean music. Also, back home you probably hear American pop music or ballad-y type stuff you just aren't as aware of it because it's more familiar.

Decadent elites, on the other hand, are motivated by some corrupted desire to flaunt their superiority and shame the lower orders. Their opinions aren't worth anything because if something's worth knowing then Joe Six-Pack will already know it.  This is BS for so many reasons.  In any case, no style of art really comes in for harsher criticism than the experimental and conceptually difficult, mainly because of this inverse snobbery - I don't understand it so it must be garbage. Criticize something popular, though, and you're instantly cast as some kind of posturing elitist.

The people on here are decadent elites?

Most people here are pretty normal. That was kind of my point- music snobbery is a way to compensate for mediocrity and lack of accomplishment in other phases of life. Who gives a crap what people listen to? I know people who do good, brave, charitable work, who listen to utterly generic work. People who are extremely successful who have generic taste in music. And usually these people don't really give a crap about what other people listen to.

Do you notice who comes on here and rants about people's music taste? It's not Kpop fans. It's not young people who are going out and clubbing and having fun with their friends. It's almost never women. Why is that?

As I said, there's a lot of similarity here to Disco Demolition, where the reaction of a group of people to new music was to get angry, blow stuff up, and start a riot.  Not something normal, sane, and emotionally mature like- "People like different music, that's cool."

Sigh.

So what things are OK to have strong opinions about?

Music? Failures at life, over compensating for their shortcomings. Apparently.
Food? An even dispersal across successful backgrounds.

Literature?
Art?
Movies?
Architecture?
Cars?
Sports?

How many people do you see go "He drives a Ford Escort, what's he thinking???" Aside from Prius snobs or something, most people don't care. Book and art snobs are pretty rare. Heck, most people are just happy you vaguely recognize something.

Movies and TV you sometimes get those, but nowhere near the degree of music snobs. But yeah, you have to wonder why some people make such a big deal about how great their taste in music is and why other music is awful.

Martin, you need to learn to quit while you are ahead. Or behind. You are talking utter rubbish here mate.
Either you are lying or you have had an incredibly sheltered or restricted social life.

I've heard people give each other shit for movies, cars, books, beer, wine, food, choice of holiday destination, sports and countless other things. I'd say the most common is food. The vast majority of people beyond a certain age just don't care enough about music to even discuss it. I can't remember the last time i had an actual conversation with someone about music. Most people just say they "like everything." You are arguing with Aristocrat, who, though can come off as a tad pompous, obviously knows his stuff and then some, when it comes to music. LIC, some 65 year old boomer living in Pattaya. And fka, who is simply giving you his personal opinion on a particular kind of music.

I've said it before and i'll say it again your mind seems to be trapped in this high school/90s sitcom time warp and you are constantly tilting at windmills that don't exist. Where the bullies/elitists/whoever are pushing around and hassling the other kids for their music taste thinking they are better then them. This manifests itself in you, a university educated person, willingly voting for Donald Trump.

Book and art snobs are pretty rare.

I remember the Harry Potter craze in the early part of the century where people were talking about whether it was OK for adults to be seen reading children's books in public. A lot of people with mediocre lives around back then. Not completely dissimilar to asking whether it's embarrassing for adults to be caught listening to kids' pop music.

Or when Dan Brown's Davinci Code was huge. And people saying it was for low brow plebs.

Martin, you need to learn to quit while you are ahead. Or behind. You are talking utter rubbish here mate.
Either you are lying or you have had an incredibly sheltered or restricted social life.

I've heard people give each other shit for movies, cars, books, beer, wine, food, choice of holiday destination, sports and countless other things. I'd say the most common is food. The vast majority of people beyond a certain age just don't care enough about music to even discuss it. I can't remember the last time i had an actual conversation with someone about music. Most people just say they "like everything." You are arguing with Aristocrat, who, though can come off as a tad pompous, obviously knows his stuff and then some, when it comes to music. LIC, some 65 year old boomer living in Pattaya. And fka, who is simply giving you his personal opinion on a particular kind of music.

I've said it before and i'll say it again your mind seems to be trapped in this high school/90s sitcom time warp and you are constantly tilting at windmills that don't exist. Where the bullies/elitists/whoever are pushing around and hassling the other kids for their music taste thinking they are better then them. This manifests itself in you, a university educated person, willingly voting for Donald Trump.

I'll agree that beer snobbery has approached music snobbery levels. There's certainly snobberies and hipsterdoms with other stuff but it's not near as rampant.

I think most people by 35 stop judging people based on if they drive a minivan or a sports car. Sure some do, but most people grow up.

But music seems to be the dominant one. Why not? It's virtually free, so easy for someone to choose it as a way to distinguish themselves.

Anyways, I dont think your assesment is fully accurate (probsbly has a touch o truth somewhere though). I think I'm trying yo explain why ballads and music appeal to other people and I genuinely think some people don't understand why. They just think it's wrong and stupid that someone has different taste.

Do you think I'm truly wrong in what attracts people to ballads or the different listening styles? Am I wrong in pointing out that there might be some discomfort in the emotions expressed in ballads and those can be discomforting to some people?

But yeah it is kind of a silly argument, which is kind of mh point- Who gives a shit what other people listen to?

No, since us "technical" musicians have become desensitised to music because of our knowledge of all the musical, technical and theoretical mumbo-jumbo, we've lost touch with emotion. That places you, who doesn't know too much and not too little, as the expert of music... who the heck do you think you are?

Lots of times you make tradeoffs between technique, accessibility, emotional expression, innovation, etc. Music that leans more towards the technical is simply one part and people can listen to and enjoy it just as much as someone who is into innovation or someone who wants something that is more accessible and emotional.

As I've said, you're using the armchair expert understanding of technique. The technique you're referring to is what what musicians informally call "chops". The tradeoff of technique for musicality refers to a very isolated era in music, mainly the 80s shred obsession. You've narrowed down on a very particular example, from the vastness of musical history and influence, to make a rather silly point.

With Korean ballads, the "love" and "sorrow" dial is usually turned up to 11... and kept there. 

This is based on your extensive listening of Korean ballads and familiarity with the genre, as well as your superb Korean language skills?

Close, it's based on the ears and knowledge of someone who spent roughly 17yrs playing instruments ,about 8yrs focusing heavily on music theory (incl. heavy emphasise on ear-training and developing, if I dare say, I pretty damn bang on relative pitch), getting certified, teaching close to 100 students at the Athlone Academy of Music and privately and still playing pretty much everyday... My ears are trained to hear things like progressions, cadences and melodic patterns; things that you'd simply label as "creativity", "magic", "inspiration" or "emotion".
Yes, I know I'm sounding pompous, but I've literally studied and practised through blood, tears of frustration, carpal tunnel syndrome and tendinitis... if I tell you Korean ballads are campy, you don't take that with a pinch of salt.

Korean ballads do not; they're extremely formulaic, same structure, same guitar solo mirroring the melody, same modulation up the circle of 5ths for the final chorus. They're clones, devoid of almost all creativity

Did it ever occur to you that you are not the target market, that the people on this Earth don't exist to make music to satisfy you, and you are not the king of music? Besides that, perhaps "creativity" is not the objective with those songs, but rather something else is the goal.

"I'm feeling sad"
"Don't worry, I have something new and creative for you."

You see what I mean about low emotional intelligence and perhaps some trouble with empathy?

You're missing the point entirely. I'm saying that it clearly sounds like very little thought goes into making a Korean ballad, it's copy and paste. Whether I'm the target market or not is irrelevant, I have no respect for Art that doesn't make any effort.

Again, it's rather pompous for you to assume that people who dislike ballads in general have emotional immaturity.

Why? Given the extensive criticism over something as benign as a music choice, examples of utter cluelessness as illustrated above, and the blindspot that for some who are fine with angry rock music, which is fine, but sad ballad music is somehow wrong, yeah I'd say that some people don't have emotional immaturity, but perhaps have some...difficulties with that end of things. As I said, many people place a significant emphasis on maintaining emotional control or stability or avoiding certain feelings, that when some music or something has those, it makes them intensely uncomfortable. Which isn't necessarily any more wrong that certain instruments producing discomfort or someone not liking "angry rock music", just that maybe you shouldn't be so judgmental.

Goodness, now you're confusing a critique with taste. You don't get requested to play "Everything I do" on piano, at wedding gigs at least a 50 times or get through music exams without learning to analyse and appreciate music you don't necessarily like. K-pop isn't my taste, but I can break it down and find things in it I like. Korean ballads, I can't find a single redeeming quality, save maybe some  vocal abilities... an instrument doesn't produce discomfort... you're mixing up instruments with their "timbre" (pronounced TAM-BIR) and it's more likely you were trying to refer to certain intervals causing discomfort; If I move from a 5th to a flat 5th, you're going to feel discomfort (the correct musical term is "tension"), whether I play it on a bagpipe or a harp. 
I'm attacking the genre for being devoid of Art, not because it falls outside my personal taste.

I generally stick to instrumental music because even lyrics are usually too to obtrusive for my musical palate, I find instrumental expressions of emotion to be more abstract and have the ability to express in a less clumsy way; Does this make me emotionally stupid?

You do realize that the human voice is an instrument and can be incredibly nuanced in the way it expresses emotion, right?

That's why I said lyrics, you donkey! Not vocals or vocalizations.
"oooooohhss" and "aaaaaahss" - vocalizations from a choir.
"Who let the dogs out?" - lyrics

I'm not trying to be mean here, but my opinion is that you really don't know much about how music works. Being able to identify the first few bars of a song or know plenty of different artists... you take those skills to a game show, they'll be less than useless when it comes to understanding music or challenging a musician to a musical debate.

'll agree that beer snobbery has approached music snobbery levels. There's certainly snobberies and hipsterdoms with other stuff but it's not near as rampant.

I think most people by 35 stop judging people based on if they drive a minivan or a sports car. Sure some do, but most people grow up.

But music seems to be the dominant one. Why not? It's virtually free, so easy for someone to choose it as a way to distinguish themselves.

It sounds like you're conflating genuine snobs and people who take the piss out of stuff. Would you call someone a beer snob who made a joke about Cass and Hite being crap? IE virtually everyone. I wouldn't. Just as I wouldn't assume someone was a music snob because they slagged off K pop. A genuine snob as you describe it would be someone who chose to make his/her taste in music a major part of their identity then came on here going on about all the obscure bands they liked as well as slagging off k pop.  Or someone who kept banging on about how much they're an expert on the subject, and other people are ignorant like Aristocrat. Apart from him, I haven't seen anyone on here like that or in real life since high school/university probably.

'll agree that beer snobbery has approached music snobbery levels. There's certainly snobberies and hipsterdoms with other stuff but it's not near as rampant.

I think most people by 35 stop judging people based on if they drive a minivan or a sports car. Sure some do, but most people grow up.

But music seems to be the dominant one. Why not? It's virtually free, so easy for someone to choose it as a way to distinguish themselves.

It sounds like you're conflating genuine snobs and people who take the piss out of stuff. Would you call someone a beer snob who made a joke about Cass and Hite being crap? IE virtually everyone. I wouldn't. Just as I wouldn't assume someone was a music snob because they slagged off K pop.

This is the problem with our dear Martin.  He always talks about 'a bit of banter' but I don't think he really understands what it really means.  It means, not getting bent out of shape by what people say in jest.  Example, I think something like Colby Jack cheese is disgusting and rubbery and I'd say that openly.  Only someone who was insecure and easily offended would care about what I said.  Most of us just shrug and move on without judging.  It obvious from his continuing this whole K-Pop thing that he can't shrug and move on.  Therefore, he just doesn't get 'banter'.   

Or when Dan Brown's Davinci Code was huge. And people saying it was for low brow plebs.

To be fair, that was an okay story, but he is a terrible, terrible writer. One of the view instances where the movie (despite being not great?) was a million times better than the book.

I love a schlocky mystery story. But Dan Brown is literally a bad writer.

Or when Dan Brown's Davinci Code was huge. And people saying it was for low brow plebs.

To be fair, that was an okay story, but he is a terrible, terrible writer. One of the view instances where the movie (despite being not great?) was a million times better than the book.

I love a schlocky mystery story. But Dan Brown is literally a bad writer.

Meh. I kinda liked his "Deception Point".
Although I'm a sucker for sci-fis, theological debates,  and geology, so I guess I was the perfect target audience.

if I tell you Korean ballads are campy, you don't take that with a pinch of salt.

You can have a bunch of expertise and can still be vastly wrong about something.

And it's made clear with this-

You're missing the point entirely. I'm saying that it clearly sounds like very little thought goes into making a Korean ballad, it's copy and paste. Whether I'm the target market or not is irrelevant, I have no respect for Art that doesn't make any effort.

YOU are missing the point. It's not about that. That's not what the target audience is going for. They're not looking for what you are insisting it should be judged upon. And YOU are not the one who matters above all else.

When it comes to artistic criticism, there are different schools of thought. One is that you should apply the same standard to everything. Another is that you judge things based upon the audience they are intended for. In the world of film criticism, Roger Ebert was the most famous proponent of the latter. Whether it was art house or a dumb action movie, the overall goal he had was "Did this film succeed in making a good movie for that intended audience in that genre." It involves such questions as "What is the audience looking for?"

The fact that YOU are not the target audience is 100% relevant. It is the core of any art.

Korean ballads, I can't find a single redeeming quality, save maybe some  vocal abilities...

Again, you aren't the target audience and you don't even understand why they appeal to people and what the people who are listening to them are looking for.

Again-
"I'm feeling sad"
"I have constructed a piece with technically sound and innovative progressions, cadences and melodic patterns and have ensured that no intervals in the piece will cause discomfort."

Oy. It's like talking to Data from Star Trek.

an instrument doesn't produce discomfort...If I move from a 5th to a flat 5th, you're going to feel discomfort (the correct musical term is "tension"), whether I play it on a bagpipe or a harp.

All humans react the same regardless of instrument? I'm pretty sure for a big chunk of people you do that on bagpipes vs. a harp and you'll get different reactions either way.

That's why I said lyrics, you donkey! Not vocals or vocalizations.
"oooooohhss" and "aaaaaahss" - vocalizations from a choir.
"Who let the dogs out?" - lyrics

Distinction without difference for the purposes of ballad listeners.

I'm not trying to be mean here, but my opinion is that you really don't know much about how music works.

And I'm telling you that "how music works" is true, but irrelevant. You are missing the point about why people listen to it, what value they get from it, and how it should be judged.

At the end it's about people, not music. I'm telling you why certain kinds of music appeals to people and what those people are looking for. You know a lot about music, but you clearly aren't understanding people here.

It sounds like you're conflating genuine snobs and people who take the piss out of stuff. Would you call someone a beer snob who made a joke about Cass and Hite being crap? IE virtually everyone. I wouldn't. Just as I wouldn't assume someone was a music snob because they slagged off K pop. A genuine snob as you describe it would be someone who chose to make his/her taste in music a major part of their identity then came on here going on about all the obscure bands they liked as well as slagging off k pop.  Or someone who kept banging on about how much they're an expert on the subject, and other people are ignorant like Aristocrat. Apart from him, I haven't seen anyone on here like that or in real life since high school/university probably.

Fair point. Though I think it's more than taking the piss and as you say, less than snobbery.