RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0

'll agree that beer snobbery has approached music snobbery levels. There's certainly snobberies and hipsterdoms with other stuff but it's not near as rampant.

I think most people by 35 stop judging people based on if they drive a minivan or a sports car. Sure some do, but most people grow up.

But music seems to be the dominant one. Why not? It's virtually free, so easy for someone to choose it as a way to distinguish themselves.

It sounds like you're conflating genuine snobs and people who take the piss out of stuff. Would you call someone a beer snob who made a joke about Cass and Hite being crap? IE virtually everyone. I wouldn't. Just as I wouldn't assume someone was a music snob because they slagged off K pop.

This is the problem with our dear Martin.  He always talks about 'a bit of banter' but I don't think he really understands what it really means.  It means, not getting bent out of shape by what people say in jest.  Example, I think something like Colby Jack cheese is disgusting and rubbery and I'd say that openly.  Only someone who was insecure and easily offended would care about what I said.  Most of us just shrug and move on without judging.  It obvious from his continuing this whole K-Pop thing that he can't shrug and move on.  Therefore, he just doesn't get 'banter'.   

Or when Dan Brown's Davinci Code was huge. And people saying it was for low brow plebs.

To be fair, that was an okay story, but he is a terrible, terrible writer. One of the view instances where the movie (despite being not great?) was a million times better than the book.

I love a schlocky mystery story. But Dan Brown is literally a bad writer.

Or when Dan Brown's Davinci Code was huge. And people saying it was for low brow plebs.

To be fair, that was an okay story, but he is a terrible, terrible writer. One of the view instances where the movie (despite being not great?) was a million times better than the book.

I love a schlocky mystery story. But Dan Brown is literally a bad writer.

Meh. I kinda liked his "Deception Point".
Although I'm a sucker for sci-fis, theological debates,  and geology, so I guess I was the perfect target audience.

if I tell you Korean ballads are campy, you don't take that with a pinch of salt.

You can have a bunch of expertise and can still be vastly wrong about something.

And it's made clear with this-

You're missing the point entirely. I'm saying that it clearly sounds like very little thought goes into making a Korean ballad, it's copy and paste. Whether I'm the target market or not is irrelevant, I have no respect for Art that doesn't make any effort.

YOU are missing the point. It's not about that. That's not what the target audience is going for. They're not looking for what you are insisting it should be judged upon. And YOU are not the one who matters above all else.

When it comes to artistic criticism, there are different schools of thought. One is that you should apply the same standard to everything. Another is that you judge things based upon the audience they are intended for. In the world of film criticism, Roger Ebert was the most famous proponent of the latter. Whether it was art house or a dumb action movie, the overall goal he had was "Did this film succeed in making a good movie for that intended audience in that genre." It involves such questions as "What is the audience looking for?"

The fact that YOU are not the target audience is 100% relevant. It is the core of any art.

Korean ballads, I can't find a single redeeming quality, save maybe some  vocal abilities...

Again, you aren't the target audience and you don't even understand why they appeal to people and what the people who are listening to them are looking for.

Again-
"I'm feeling sad"
"I have constructed a piece with technically sound and innovative progressions, cadences and melodic patterns and have ensured that no intervals in the piece will cause discomfort."

Oy. It's like talking to Data from Star Trek.

an instrument doesn't produce discomfort...If I move from a 5th to a flat 5th, you're going to feel discomfort (the correct musical term is "tension"), whether I play it on a bagpipe or a harp.

All humans react the same regardless of instrument? I'm pretty sure for a big chunk of people you do that on bagpipes vs. a harp and you'll get different reactions either way.

That's why I said lyrics, you donkey! Not vocals or vocalizations.
"oooooohhss" and "aaaaaahss" - vocalizations from a choir.
"Who let the dogs out?" - lyrics

Distinction without difference for the purposes of ballad listeners.

I'm not trying to be mean here, but my opinion is that you really don't know much about how music works.

And I'm telling you that "how music works" is true, but irrelevant. You are missing the point about why people listen to it, what value they get from it, and how it should be judged.

At the end it's about people, not music. I'm telling you why certain kinds of music appeals to people and what those people are looking for. You know a lot about music, but you clearly aren't understanding people here.

It sounds like you're conflating genuine snobs and people who take the piss out of stuff. Would you call someone a beer snob who made a joke about Cass and Hite being crap? IE virtually everyone. I wouldn't. Just as I wouldn't assume someone was a music snob because they slagged off K pop. A genuine snob as you describe it would be someone who chose to make his/her taste in music a major part of their identity then came on here going on about all the obscure bands they liked as well as slagging off k pop.  Or someone who kept banging on about how much they're an expert on the subject, and other people are ignorant like Aristocrat. Apart from him, I haven't seen anyone on here like that or in real life since high school/university probably.

Fair point. Though I think it's more than taking the piss and as you say, less than snobbery.

Do you think I'm truly wrong in what attracts people to ballads or the different listening styles? Am I wrong in pointing out that there might be some discomfort in the emotions expressed in ballads and those can be discomforting to some people?

But that would imply that anyone who disliked Korean ballads would dislike all emotional music. That we would all think we are too hard and cool and whatever to open ourselves to emotions conjured in this music. I listen to plenty of music that is designed to be emotional. I'm a weepy son of a bitch.

It's not the emotional content of the song that bothers me. As others have already pointed out, it's the over wrought singing style, saccharine sweet, cheesiness of them. And I have noticed that this kind of faux sentimentality is big here. Obviously it does appeal to people. Many people. That's fine. And it's fine to think it's shit. Like fka said; Michael Bolton. Richard Marx. How often are those poor souls the butt of people's jokes? Also, I dislike corny music of any stripe just as much. I put a lot of post grunge North American rock (3 doors down etc) in the same category as Korean ballads. Guy singing about how hot their girlfriend is while chuggin a beer a riding in a pick up.

I also don't think if i had perfect listening comprehension in Korean and could understand all the lyrics that I would suddenly have an epiphany of appreciation. I listen to plenty of music that isn't sung in English. Spanish, Japanese, Russian, Chinese, German, Hebrew and yes even some Korean music that manages to steer clear of the shlocky cornball tendencies of Korean ballads.

I'd say the picture you are painting, of males being uncomfortable with their emotions and having an adverse reaction when confronted by something that has emotion at the forefront, is from a bygone era. Or a certain subset of males. Guys like LIC and Northstar, who bemoan millennials and "feelings". If anything I'd say guys nowadays are too ruled and in touch with their feelings.

At the end of the day, so many of these arguments start with you having a problem with people having opinions on things. I get that its dickish to use those opinions to put people down. But we are all adults and most of us know it's just messing around.

'll agree that beer snobbery has approached music snobbery levels. There's certainly snobberies and hipsterdoms with other stuff but it's not near as rampant.

I think most people by 35 stop judging people based on if they drive a minivan or a sports car. Sure some do, but most people grow up.

But music seems to be the dominant one. Why not? It's virtually free, so easy for someone to choose it as a way to distinguish themselves.

It sounds like you're conflating genuine snobs and people who take the piss out of stuff. Would you call someone a beer snob who made a joke about Cass and Hite being crap? IE virtually everyone. I wouldn't. Just as I wouldn't assume someone was a music snob because they slagged off K pop. A genuine snob as you describe it would be someone who chose to make his/her taste in music a major part of their identity then came on here going on about all the obscure bands they liked as well as slagging off k pop.  Or someone who kept banging on about how much they're an expert on the subject, and other people are ignorant like Aristocrat. Apart from him, I haven't seen anyone on here like that or in real life since high school/university probably.

If people don't like certain genres, that's fine, it's preference. You can say you like K-ballads and I won't bother you, that's your bag.

If you're going to tell me I'm wrong for arguing that K-pop has a few redeeming qualities or that K-ballads barely qualify as Art, then prove me wrong with a sensible argument. Don't kick the ball if you're not going to play the game.

If you're going to get upset that I'm using knowledge to prove something you can't refute then sorry, not sorry, the problem lies with your sensitive ego and insecurities.

I know very little about brewing coffee, never really liked the stuff. So, if a coffee aficionado decides to tell me how to brew coffee, I'll STFU and hear what he/she has to say. 

As for snobs... trust me, they don't make it far when it comes to understanding music; When you're locked into rejecting  everything other than select music, you won't even hope to get a glimpse of the utter, stupendous and wonderful complexity that is music.

Aristocrat: I know very little about brewing coffee, never really liked the stuff. So, if a coffee aficionado decides to tell me how to brew coffee, I'll STFU and hear what he/she has to say. 

Really?  I also know very little about coffee as I don't drink and don't care one iota about it, so my reaction to some coffee aficionado  trying to tell me about coffee would be to hope they could read the room and stop boring me with their expertise.  Hint, hint. 

yeah that doesn't make sense. if i didn't like coffee, and someone kept telling me i'd like it if i brewed it a certain way - despite me insisting i don't like coffee - i'd be pretty peeved

Aristocrat: I know very little about brewing coffee, never really liked the stuff. So, if a coffee aficionado decides to tell me how to brew coffee, I'll STFU and hear what he/she has to say. 

Really?  I also know very little about coffee as I don't drink and don't care one iota about it, so my reaction to some coffee aficionado  trying to tell me about coffee would be to hope they could read the room and stop boring me with their expertise.  Hint, hint. 

Fascinating, you're engaging in a rather long discussion about music, yet you've no interest in it?

Or... you're interested in music and are willing to engage in an argument, that is until someone who knows more than you comes along. Then you chuck your toys, pout your lips, declare the game boring, blow a raspberry and run home.

"Runaway when you know you can't win"
I should remember that

The ****** loudspeakers are too ****** loud. Why are they always set to deafcon 1?

The ****** loudspeakers are too ****** loud. Why are they always set to deafcon 1?

That's "Defcon 1", not  "deafcon 1", and....
...
... ooooh. I get it! 

How hard would it be for these textbook companies to find someone whose native language is English to proofread these garbage ass textbooks?

Aristocrat: I know very little about brewing coffee, never really liked the stuff. So, if a coffee aficionado decides to tell me how to brew coffee, I'll STFU and hear what he/she has to say. 

Really?  I also know very little about coffee as I don't drink and don't care one iota about it, so my reaction to some coffee aficionado  trying to tell me about coffee would be to hope they could read the room and stop boring me with their expertise.  Hint, hint. 

Fascinating, you're engaging in a rather long discussion about music, yet you've no interest in it?

Or... you're interested in music and are willing to engage in an argument, that is until someone who knows more than you comes along. Then you chuck your toys, pout your lips, declare the game boring, blow a raspberry and run home.

"Runaway when you know you can't win"
I should remember that

As I long suspected, we have a name to add to the list of people who take themselves too seriously to be light heartedly mocked.  I get it, you consider yourself an expert in the study of music and its technical aspects.  You've exhaustedly covered that.  You, however, are clearly, not an expert in reading the room and realise people think your enlightenments on music are boring.  I enjoy music greatly, but I don't really care what's behind the sound.  It's a visceral response for me.  Stop taking yourself so seriously with the "you should care what I say about Korean ballads." attitude.  I don't care.  Most people in this discussion don't seem to care.  I get that's not the response you wanted, but it is the reality.  You've decided there is only one way to discuss and understand music (from your perspective, unsurprisingly) and you're frustrated that your opinions are not getting the respect you feel they deserve. 

Here is a simpler way to understand the situation.  The only person who is impressed with your credentials and understanding of music is...you.  That should make it easy. 

How hard would it be for these textbook companies to find someone whose native language is English to proofread these garbage ass textbooks?

i've posted this before but

a few years ago the publishing company (cheonjae?) came to our school. asked us native teachers (3 of us) what improvements we recommend. we spent an hour suggesting things. they gave us 50k won each. nice.

they completely ignored every single thing we mentioned in the next edition. infact, they did the opposite. ughh

But that would imply that anyone who disliked Korean ballads would dislike all emotional music. That we would all think we are too hard and cool and whatever to open ourselves to emotions conjured in this music. I listen to plenty of music that is designed to be emotional. I'm a weepy son of a bitch.

Well certainly not all. I mean there are people who just have preferences for other kinds of music. But those people generally don't go out of their way to knock something. But I do think it applies to some percentage of the people who don't like Korean ballads. I mean, a lot of the complaints focus on the subject matter of the songs and the underlying feelings.

But you're right that people can get sad and weepy over different kinds of music. I mean, if I want some sad down music, I'd probably go with Hank Sr. over a Korean ballad, but then again I can see why country songs from yesteryear might not appeal to some urban-dwelling woman or man in their 20s-30s.

it's the over wrought singing style, saccharine sweet, cheesiness of them.

I think that's somewhat subjective. As you yourself point out, you find that in other kinds of music, and while some people might despise both, other people might say one is fine but not the other, simply because one is rock and familiar, while the other is Kpop and unfamiliar.

I also don't think if i had perfect listening comprehension in Korean and could understand all the lyrics that I would suddenly have an epiphany of appreciation.

Certainly, but that can be a factor.  Understanding can make a difference.

At the end of the day, so many of these arguments start with you having a problem with people having opinions on things. I get that its dickish to use those opinions to put people down. But we are all adults and most of us know it's just messing around.

True in some cases. I mentioned Disco Demolition Night. To use that again, I'd say a good chunk of people were there just as an amusement. Chant "Disco sucks!" a few times, see some records get blown up, have some brews and watch a ballgame. Whatever. Heck they might even have a few favorite Disco tunes. But there were also some people there who were going beyond that. They were actually angry at Disco. There was resentment that people liked it. That it was taking over their radio stations. That they were being subjected to this "lower" form of music. That they needed to prove that it was inferior and their taste was superior. That's what turned a dumb stunt into a riot. Well, that and drugs and alcohol.

I think just like that, there's this some of the same feelings regarding Kpop as well. Combined with I think, some level of ignorance. It's like the "Why is it so hot in here????" threads. And I point out that for some people, particularly people of African descent or places that are hotter, and women as well, they like things warmer and that's okay. They have just as much a right to a comfortable temperature. I think most people understand this and agree and maybe just hope for some compromise. But I think some people don't really get that. They feel there's a right temperature and it's their temperature. And like the temperature beef, I notice that the people most upset TEND TO be, uh well, common demographically.

As I said, I think Chinguetti was hitting on something when she posted this-

I also notice that a lot of the music trash talking almost exclusively begins whenever a boy band is the subject. Doesn't seem to come up as often when girl groups are mentioned. 

I know very little about brewing coffee, never really liked the stuff. So, if a coffee aficionado decides to tell me how to brew coffee, I'll STFU and hear what he/she has to say. 

I think it's like this-
A: The coffee at Ralph's Diner sucks. How can anyone like that crap? Why do people drink such crap coffee?"
B: I don't think the coffee at Ralph's is that bad. It's not for everyone, but the people there seem to like it. It certainly seems to appeal to a certain demographic of people.
A: They're wrong. It's generic crap coffee. Nothing is original about it. I know, I'm a trained barista and have decades of experience with coffee. For starters they use pre-ground coffee. That's literally the worst thing you can do for your coffee. Don't they know that freshly roasted whole bean coffee ground within 10 minutes of brewing is best because (insert scientific explanation filled with explanations about freshness and grind and blah blah blah)
B: I think they like the coffee because it's $1.25 a cup and you get unlimited refills.
A: That's not the issue. We're discussing what makes good coffee. Do you know that the coffee they use that's preground and freeze-dried isn't even single origin and it's ROBUSTA, not ARABICA??? I mean, it's like these people have never even had a cup or single origin Tanzania Peaberry prepared in a Chemex blah blah blah
B: I think there just looking for the emotional satisfaction of a hot cup of coffee to start their day, plus the waitresses at Ralph's are really nice. I think it's mostly the feeling they get from it.
A: Don't they know that feeling in fact comes from the release and proper execution of the extraction of coffee blah blah blah. I'm an expert. You don't even know what you're talking about. These are the qualities that make a good cup of coffee and the coffee at Ralph's Diner has none of these. I worked at a small time coffee shop that didn't have a big clientele, but I was a serious expert, so I know what people should be looking for in coffee. You don't understand this and that and this.
B: Dude, I'm trying to tell you that doesn't matter. People like the coffee at Ralph's because it's hot and comforting and they can enjoy it over their newspaper and the people at Ralph's are nice.
A: No, you're not listening. I'm an expert. You can't even tell the difference between a City Roast and a Full City Roast. You couldn't tell the difference between an acidic African coffee like Ethiopian Yirgacheffe and a nutty Indonesian Mandheling.
B: I think I know why your coffee shop closed and everyone goes to Ralph's. There's more to "coffee" than just coffee. At least the people at Ralph's don't spend endless hours trying to show everyone what coffee experts they are and ranting about the failings of things.  Your coffee is great, but sometimes you just want a stead cup and your newspaper.
A: You're wrong because I'm a trained expert.

As I said, I think Chinguetti was hitting on something when she posted this-
Quote from: Chinguetti on September 30, 2019, 01:11:57 pm
I also notice that a lot of the music trash talking almost exclusively begins whenever a boy band is the subject. Doesn't seem to come up as often when girl groups are mentioned. 

Is this related to your theory that males who slag off K pop bands do it because they're secretly jealous of their effeminate looks and dance moves?
 
The hype over Big Bang and BTS has far surpassed anything a girl band has produced. If people started bigging up Black Pink or Red Velvet in the same way they do those, fine I'd be more than happy to chip in with my opinion that they're also both crap. 

Aristocrat: I know very little about brewing coffee, never really liked the stuff. So, if a coffee aficionado decides to tell me how to brew coffee, I'll STFU and hear what he/she has to say. 

Really?  I also know very little about coffee as I don't drink and don't care one iota about it, so my reaction to some coffee aficionado  trying to tell me about coffee would be to hope they could read the room and stop boring me with their expertise.  Hint, hint. 

Fascinating, you're engaging in a rather long discussion about music, yet you've no interest in it?

Or... you're interested in music and are willing to engage in an argument, that is until someone who knows more than you comes along. Then you chuck your toys, pout your lips, declare the game boring, blow a raspberry and run home.

"Runaway when you know you can't win"
I should remember that

As I long suspected, we have a name to add to the list of people who take themselves too seriously to be light heartedly mocked.  I get it, you consider yourself an expert in the study of music and its technical aspects.  You've exhaustedly covered that.  You, however, are clearly, not an expert in reading the room and realise people think your enlightenments on music are boring.  I enjoy music greatly, but I don't really care what's behind the sound.  It's a visceral response for me.  Stop taking yourself so seriously with the "you should care what I say about Korean ballads." attitude.  I don't care.  Most people in this discussion don't seem to care.  I get that's not the response you wanted, but it is the reality.  You've decided there is only one way to discuss and understand music (from your perspective, unsurprisingly) and you're frustrated that your opinions are not getting the respect you feel they deserve. 

Here is a simpler way to understand the situation.  The only person who is impressed with your credentials and understanding of music is...you.  That should make it easy. 

Many find musical understanding  fascinating. Take a seat, don't flatter yourself, the last thing I'd give a crap about is trying to impress you... you're approval is not terribly important to me.

You're absolutely hell-bent on believing I'm trying to grandstand. Has the possibility never occurred to you that a person who really has a passion for music simply likes to discuss it? Crazy! I know.
If you find a proper critique on the genres in question boring? Fine, if you can't keep up/are unwilling to participate, leave the discussion.

I made the mistake of assuming a college educated adult might take an interest in learning something new. Obviously, I was wrong.

It would be interesting to compare which would be lower, your interest in my opinion, or my interest in your approval.

Imagine not liking pop music. That must suck.