RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0

"kpip" - never forget

Guys, I'm not saying that everyone has to love Prince. I'm just saying it's weird that in globalized society with an internet-savvy population, a group of four educated Korean people had never heard of a global pop star who was, commercially speaking, the most successful chart act of the 1980s, who sold over 100 million records worldwide, played in massive Japanese arenas dozens of times, and was the subject of enormous international media attention when he died a few years ago. 

Not judging them for it... Just expressing my surprise.

I get that.  But, other than when he changed his name to a symbol I can't think of much I knew about what Prince was doing until that last fateful elevator ride.  He was huge in North America in the eighties and his fans still followed him but I can't recall him being on my radar in the nineties.  Up until fairly recently Korea was a flyover country for major musical acts.  People don't know Springsteen here.  You can find loads of people wearing shirts with the Stones' tongue logo and not know The Rolling Stones.  I've had a few conversations with younger adults that have talked about Maroon 5 and that God awful "Moves like Jagger" song but not have a clue who or what a Jagger is.  In, short, unless it's Elvis, The Beatles, or Michael Jackson I'm surprised when Koreans know about well known western artists. 

Guys, guys! Can't you see that Martin has come in and torn this thread asunder?

Lets all just agree:

-Kpop is very awesome. And people who harass you on social media for making fun of it as a joke, are also very awesome. It's all good stuff. Dyed blonde bowl cuts for all!

-Starry Night, The Scream, or that one of Jesus in some Spanish church that an old lady touched up, it's all art and its all great. Fun, fun stuff. And i enjoy it all.

-Rock music is only liked by old white men. And tbh me and Martin are getting kind of sick of you guys. How about some toot tooting be bop? Little bit of Mavis Beacon? Yeah? That's what we grew up on. Rock is dead, get over it.

-As for our own personal musical ability, I'm sure we are all pretty good. And i would LOVE to get together for a jam session. Maybe lay down some tracks. No Nirvana covers, thank you very much. I'm thinking of a more funk infused Kpop. Aristocrat is probably going to want to come in and do some prog rock guitar solos. That's fine. Room for everyone, but we'll save it for the instrumental tracks.

In summary, this very same argument happens once every three to four months. And its apt that the second that Martin is unlocked from his time out room he comes in here and sprays his theories across the thread. But hey, thats part of the flavour of this place. We're living in a society here.

prog, hard rock and classic rock are nice and all, but one of the most tiring things about being a guitarist is all the guitar community of balding, old white guys, stuck in that classic rock rut. They've made rock, in general, a bit unbearable for me; if I have to hear another old, white guy noodling inside the blues scale, I'm going to sell my guitars and focus on piano. I've been on a Future Funk and Neo-Soul kick these past few weeks and experimenting with ways to marry the explosive rock guitar, leads with those addictive beats of Future Funk and the contemporary sexiness of Neo-Soul. While I'm no K-pop fan, the instrumentals behind Infintie's 'Chaser' and Girl's Generation's 'Twinkle' are undeniably cool.

I've always believed that we're all privileged to be living in the richest, most accessible, interesting and diverse period in musical history.

Guys, guys! Can't you see that Martin has come in and torn this thread asunder?

Lets all just agree:

-Kpop is very awesome. And people who harass you on social media for making fun of it as a joke, are also very awesome. It's all good stuff. Dyed blonde bowl cuts for all!

-Starry Night, The Scream, or that one of Jesus in some Spanish church that an old lady touched up, it's all art and its all great. Fun, fun stuff. And i enjoy it all.

-Rock music is only liked by old white men. And tbh me and Martin are getting kind of sick of you guys. How about some toot tooting be bop? Little bit of Mavis Beacon? Yeah? That's what we grew up on. Rock is dead, get over it.

-As for our own personal musical ability, I'm sure we are all pretty good. And i would LOVE to get together for a jam session. Maybe lay down some tracks. No Nirvana covers, thank you very much. I'm thinking of a more funk infused Kpop. Aristocrat is probably going to want to come in and do some prog rock guitar solos. That's fine. Room for everyone, but we'll save it for the instrumental tracks.

In summary, this very same argument happens once every three to four months. And its apt that the second that Martin is unlocked from his time out room he comes in here and sprays his theories across the thread. But hey, thats part of the flavour of this place. We're living in a society here.

prog, hard rock and classic rock are nice and all, but one of the most tiring things about being a guitarist is all the guitar community of balding, old white guys, stuck in that classic rock rut. They've made rock, in general, a bit unbearable for me; if I have to hear another old, white guy noodling inside the blues scale, I'm going to sell my guitars and focus on piano. I've been on a Future Funk and Neo-Soul kick these past few weeks and experimenting with ways to marry the explosive rock guitar, leads with those addictive beats of Future Funk and the contemporary sexiness of Neo-Soul. While I'm no K-pop fan, the instrumentals behind Infintie's 'Chaser' and Girl's Generation's 'Twinkle' are undeniably cool.

I've always believed that we're all privileged to be living in the richest, most accessible, interesting and diverse period in musical history.

Yeah, one of the most tiring things about being a white hip hop singer like me is all the community of fat old black guys in their baggy clothes, stuck in that classic 80/90s rut. They've made the genre, in general, a bit unbearable for me; if I have to hear another old, black guy MCing or rhyming along to public enemy or Run DMC , I'm going to buy a guitar and focus on rock. 

While I'm no K-pop fan, the instrumentals behind Infintie's 'Chaser' and Girl's Generation's 'Twinkle' are undeniably cool.

"All Night" by GG and Red Velvet's "Bad Boy" as well.  Apply some vocoder and add a dash more retro irony and you're not a millions miles away from Daft Punk. K-Pop is generally a world of abject lameness but lurking under the surface is some good production that almost justifies its success.

And that's reason why I'm surprised nobody has reserved their ire for those awful, awful Koreans that assault you in coffee shops. If there's a style of Korean music that really deserves hate, it's that one. I would rather listen to almost anything than some "sensitive"  loser in an oversized turtleneck sweater bellowing his contrived laments over a torturously saccharine piano melody. Literally every form of Korean music is superior to that one, trot included. And that's before I even get started on the buskers offering their ersatz version of this crap in the park...

While I'm no K-pop fan, the instrumentals behind Infintie's 'Chaser' and Girl's Generation's 'Twinkle' are undeniably cool.

"All Night" by GG and Red Velvet's "Bad Boy" as well.  Apply some vocoder and add a dash more retro irony and you're not a millions miles away from Daft Punk. K-Pop is generally a world of abject lameness but lurking under the surface is some good production that almost justifies its success.

And that's reason why I'm surprised nobody has reserved their ire for those awful, awful Koreans that assault you in coffee shops. If there's a style of Korean music that really deserves hate, it's that one. I would rather listen to almost anything than some "sensitive"  loser in an oversized turtleneck sweater bellowing his contrived laments over a torturously saccharine piano melody. Literally every form of Korean music is superior to that one, trot included. And that's before I even get started on the buskers offering their ersatz version of this crap in the park...

You're forgetting the talent of the cyclist/mini-sax players that can be found under an overpass on bike trails.  They are usually spread out every few kilometres so that they don't drown each other out.

I've yet to experience this, but would like to rectify that ASAP. 

While I'm no K-pop fan, the instrumentals behind Infintie's 'Chaser' and Girl's Generation's 'Twinkle' are undeniably cool.

"All Night" by GG and Red Velvet's "Bad Boy" as well.  Apply some vocoder and add a dash more retro irony and you're not a millions miles away from Daft Punk. K-Pop is generally a world of abject lameness but lurking under the surface is some good production that almost justifies its success.

And that's reason why I'm surprised nobody has reserved their ire for those awful, awful Koreans that assault you in coffee shops. If there's a style of Korean music that really deserves hate, it's that one. I would rather listen to almost anything than some "sensitive"  loser in an oversized turtleneck sweater bellowing his contrived laments over a torturously saccharine piano melody. Literally every form of Korean music is superior to that one, trot included. And that's before I even get started on the buskers offering their ersatz version of this crap in the park...

Oh, Allah, save me from Korean ballads! Trot has a goofy, folksy and soviet-esque charm to it. If anything, trot has character. Korean ballads have the character and feel of a botched abortion, followed by the excitement of a steady diet of white rice.

In all seriousness, anyone who has a passion for music needs to watch this. It discusses approaching music you don't like and learning from it. The first step is to isolate and identify exactly what it is about a musician or genre you don't like, then, explore that to learn more about yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaIJjyvkS1Y

What I dislike in K-pop (just the music)

- Even in the context of pop, it's pretty damn generic
- Very predictable song structure (see above)
- The overused and cheesy key-change for the final chorus
- I prefer instrumental music
- Progressions and melodies are VERY afraid of not sounding pretty or cutesy

What I like about K-pop

- Some pretty clever use of effects at times (verbs, harmonizers, shifters, vibes, swells etc.)
- Beats, while pretty much a copy and paste from hip-hop and EDM, are educational to someone from a rock background.
- Penchant for sampling and using re-harmonized 90s rnb, which I love. Gives me ideas on how to breath new life into older music.

With Korean ballads, it's probably one of the few genres, along with mumble-rap, which has NOTHING in it that I enjoy.

I will point out that the kind of Korean adult Westerners teach in Korea are not the 'average' person in the US or the UK. In Seoul they are generally the elite of the elite. Often educated abroad at some stage and coming from the richer areas of Seoul, They probably went to various hagwans as kids, including art hagwans. 

I've taught plenty of adult students ranging from "the elite" to people who would be considered very very middle class.

Also the elite of the elite don't need Hagwons or teachers. They went to middle and high school and college abroad. If anything they might need a Korean tutor.

Yeah, one of the most tiring things about being a white hip hop singer like me is all the community of fat old black guys in their baggy clothes, stuck in that classic 80/90s rut. They've made the genre, in general, a bit unbearable for me; if I have to hear another old, black guy MCing or rhyming along to public enemy or Run DMC , I'm going to buy a guitar and focus on rock.

There's a big difference. For one thing, hip-hop fans seem to have aged pretty well and accepted the evolution of things. Of course there's still some nostalgia and people who are stuck in a certain period and hating on new trends, but by and large you don't see near the same level of stuck in the past. Also, hip-hop fans aren't nearly as obnoxious about declaring artists from their genre of music the greatest ever, and are used to encountering people who have little knowledge/interest in their genre.  Additionally, you don't see hip-hop fans getting all upset at Kpop or other kinds of music. The kpop hating seems to come overwhelmingly from one direction. You don't see heavy reggaeton or hip-hop or EDM fans on here griping about Kpop. The haters also happen to be overwhelmingly male, which is odd. Even on a site like this that skews male, it's still a bit way out of whack. I think Chinguetti kind of hinted at some underlying issues when she pointed this out and the hate being especially directed at boy bands.

Only rock fans seem to have this kind of attitude and I'm not quite sure what brings it out. Save for perhaps classical/jazz snobs and hipsters, most other fans at least get that people like all kinds of music and someone not liking your kind of music doesn't make them ignorant or worthy of ridicule. Even country music fans get this, after all they too understand what it's like to be part of a subculture and dismissed and ridiculed.

Like I said, this really does sometimes echo Disco Demolition Night
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disco_Demolition_Night#Cultural_significance

The chance to yell "disco sucks" meant more than simply a musical style choice. It was a chance to push back on a whole set of social dynamics that lay just beneath the surface of a minor battle between a DJ and a radio station that decided to change formats. More importantly, it was a chance for a whole lot of people to say they didn't like the way the world was changing around them, or who they saw as the potential victors in a cultural and demographic war.

However if this is like DDN, then the Kpop haters should relax because Kpop will end up like disco, so no reason to get all worked up.

There's a big difference. For one thing, hip-hop fans seem to have aged pretty well and accepted the evolution of things. Of course there's still some nostalgia and people who are stuck in a certain period and hating on new trends, but by and large you don't see near the same level of stuck in the past. Also, hip-hop fans aren't nearly as obnoxious about declaring artists from their genre of music the greatest ever, and are used to encountering people who have little knowledge/interest in their genre.  Additionally, you don't see hip-hop fans getting all upset at Kpop or other kinds of music. The kpop hating seems to come overwhelmingly from one direction. You don't see heavy reggaeton or hip-hop or EDM fans on here griping about Kpop. The haters also happen to be overwhelmingly male, which is odd. Even on a site like this that skews male, it's still a bit way out of whack. I think Chinguetti kind of hinted at some underlying issues when she pointed this out and the hate being especially directed at boy bands.

Do you actually read what people write on here? Aristocrat was being racist about rock musicians and I called him out for it by doing a parody of being racist about Hip Hop musicians. Neither of us was talking about fans.

With Korean ballads, it's probably one of the few genres, along with mumble-rap, which has NOTHING in it that I enjoy.

The audience for ballads is primarily women, who tend to listen to music differently (and view movies, TV, etc). As I mentioned for them they are much more interested in experiencing the emotions of the performer or actor than say in structure/technique/or even story. It's also why in the case of many of these ballads, performers will put their own touch on it and someone might listen to 5 versions of the same ballad song by 5 different singers. If this is not how you listen to music, and instead rely almost exclusively on the structural aspects, then I can see how it is inaccessible, just as technically sophisticated but comparatively emotionally barren or vocal-less music would have little appeal to a ballad listener. It can be hard for people more comfortable in technical things to have the emotional sensitivity and acceptance and comfort to be able to listen to songs that express pain, sadness, longing, regret, hope, love, passion, anger, etc. where those emotions can shift and might be subtle, and are often uncomfortable to observe and certainly uncomfortable to experience for people who pride themselves on dispassion and self-control.

Additionally, I think a big factor might be Korean language skill and context. If the lyrics of the song and it's situations like emotional or experiential resonance for you, you probably won't care about it as much. While that can be easy to overlook on a fun, simple trot song or a dance number, it's a lot harder with ballads.

Finally, and this should always be understood when talking about music in Korea, music here is a VERY social phenomenon. Going together to sing as a way to have fun and build relationships, while not unique to Korea, is certainly much more of a thing than in the West, save perhaps for church settings and African-American culture. In all of those settings, music is used as a point of commonality, rather than individuality and distinction. As such it needs to appeal to as broad a section of people as possible, and also be relatively easy to perform and sing.

Trot has a goofy, folksy and soviet-esque charm to it. If anything, trot has character.

Agree with this. Trot doesn't take itself too seriously. It's incredibly simplistic in most cases, but that's sort of the point. A simple song for simpler times and simpler living. And like I mentioned above, it sort of has that communal aspect to it. It's music the whole village can listen to.

Do you actually read what people write on here? Aristocrat was being racist about rock musicians and I called him out for it by doing a parody of being racist about Hip Hop musicians. Neither of us was talking about fans.

Yes you were parodying it. I think when Aristocrat mentioned those musicians, he was referring to amateur musicians, which would be more like fans and sort of represent the general rut and malaise that rock and its fans seem to be in, than professional artists.

I never usually read a bloated, verbose DeMartino post through to the end, but I read one of the above and I've concluded that he somehow equates length with veracity.  If he writes at great length people won't catch on to him just making sh*t up off the top of his head. 

Like this gem: DeMartino: The audience for ballads is primarily women, who tend to listen to music differently (and view movies, TV, etc). As I mentioned for them they are much more interested in experiencing the emotions of the performer or actor than say in structure/technique/or even story.

Haha, those silly skirts!  They don't even know what the song is about, in fact the singer is just reading a menu and they still got wobbly in the knees. 

Have you ever gone out with Koreans to live music places, or the places where one of the staff will get on a keyboard or drumkit to accompany the customer who wants to take the stage?  I have been dragged to these places as well as karaoke with a number of older Koreans and the men, far more than the women, get up and get misty eyed as they belt out some old favourite ballad.  My GF and her family members love finishing the evening at these places.  This, unfortunately, was not a one off experience for me. 

And to pre-empt the "Dude, did you read what I wrote? I said women are primarily the FANS of ballads, not the ones who sing them." But, logic and reason will tell us that the salaryman who enjoys getting up and singing a song he clearly has memorized and means something to him, must also be a fan of said song. 

Korea, I love you, but just because it's legally Autumn doesn't mean you get to turn the heat on.

How about actually thinking about what the temperature? It's 23 bloody degrees out, there's no need to have any heat on and you should actually have the AC on.

Korea, I love you, but just because it's legally Autumn doesn't mean you get to turn the heat on.

How about actually thinking about what the temperature? It's 23 bloody degrees out, there's no need to have any heat on and you should actually have the AC on.

yeah...there are some things about korea i will never, ever understand

It's September 1st, so all a/c must be off (fans ok) even though it's friggin 32 c outside! And little Jun-su is sweating in his jacket he won't take off because his mother told him to keep it on.

It happens every year.

Note: Jeju is very different. Kids there wear t-shirts in early November. There are actually PLENTY of differences between Koreans there and the mainland, especially among the youth. It's almost like another country. I spent 7 years on the mainland, then 7 years on Jeju, then the last 2.5 years back on the mainland, and my experiences here mirror my first seven years, with Jeju seeming like a foreign country.

It's September 1st, so all a/c must be off (fans ok) even though it's friggin 32 c outside! And little Jun-su is sweating in his jacket he won't take off because his mother told him to keep it on.

It happens every year.

Note: Jeju is very different. Kids there wear t-shirts in early November. There are actually PLENTY of differences between Koreans there and the mainland, especially among the youth. It's almost like another country. I spent 7 years on the mainland, then 7 years on Jeju, then the last 2.5 years back on the mainland, and my experiences here mirror my first seven years, with Jeju seeming like a foreign country.

To be fair, it’s not just Korea that does this.

I remember plenty of places in Canada (including schools) that required a “switch-over” to enable or disable the heating system.

I’m not sure what was involved, but once it was done, heat was on (or off, as the case may be.)

And..... how about them closing the public pools along the Han River in the middle of summer. Why?  because according to them winter has started around July 21st.

We not got anything better to moan about other than kpop and the temperature?

Is it just me or are K-dramas utterly crap?

Every single one (and I've ended up watching a fair few) seems to be stuffed with unlikeable and flat characters living in huge houses furnished with tacky shite.

How this is popular elsewhere in Asia is a mystery to me. I can only guess that their output is even worse such that Korean dramas could appear to be good.

We not got anything better to moan about other than kpop and the temperature?

Is it just me or are K-dramas utterly crap?

Every single one (and I've ended up watching a fair few) seems to be stuffed with unlikeable and flat characters living in huge houses furnished with tacky shite.

How this is popular elsewhere in Asia is a mystery to me. I can only guess that their output is even worse such that Korean dramas could appear to be good.

I honestly watched some with an open mind and came to exactly the same conclusion. I stuck to dramas that were recommended to me by friends, got generally good write-ups online and had plots with potential. The whiny voices and overacting were too much to bear. I don't know if I've made it past two episodes of anything. They all seemed to consist exclusively of annoying, unrelatable characters in unrealistic situations making wide-eyed, exaggerated facial expressions and saying "진짜?" and "왜...?" over and over again.