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  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 4478

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10540 on: October 03, 2019, 03:16:57 am »
"The Scream" isn't even by da Vinci ffs

Teenagers going apeshit over KPop is no different than teenagers going apeshit over the Backstreet Boys. You can like it, you can hate it, whatever. It does NOT affect you unless you have an obsessed teenaged child.
or if you browse the internet. or live in korea. or teach korean kids

I thankfully am not subject to your first two points- all my Korean students have been far more interested in reggaeton, since that's what the local kids like these days- and I suppose I just...don't look at k-pop sites?  Or have cooler friends than you? ;)
joke's on you. i don't have any friends

Ha! Jokes on YOU, cuz I don't have any friends, either!

.......aw, snap.

You two should hang out.

Two problems solved!


Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10541 on: October 03, 2019, 12:22:12 pm »
I'm bashing kpop fans for often being a bit mental, not being insular and ignorant. I, quite literally, have no idea where this argument came from

I bet you have no idea who Beatoven, Wetknee Houston or Detrout Spinners are either? 


  • VanIslander
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 1905

    • June 02, 2011, 10:12:19 am
    • Seogwipo, Jeju Island
    more
Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10542 on: October 03, 2019, 08:03:20 pm »
Brooms with short sticks!

Arghh.


  • zola
  • The Legend

    • 2917

    • September 30, 2012, 06:56:11 am
    • Korea
Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10543 on: October 03, 2019, 08:17:02 pm »
I'm bashing kpop fans for often being a bit mental, not being insular and ignorant. I, quite literally, have no idea where this argument came from

I bet you have no idea who Beatoven, Wetknee Houston or Detrout Spinners are either? 
He's young. He'll know Kanwe Rest.
Kpip! - Martin 2018


  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 4478

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10544 on: October 03, 2019, 08:56:52 pm »
Brooms with short sticks!

Arghh.

I wonder if the broom is designed for hunched-over old ladies, or if the old ladies get hunched-over from using the brooms.


  • Mr C
  • The Legend

    • 2138

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10545 on: October 03, 2019, 09:06:12 pm »
Brooms with short sticks!

Arghh.


What? No!

Asian straw brooms are the only brooms in the world worth having!
« Last Edit: October 03, 2019, 09:08:07 pm by Mr C »
Mr. C is not a bad person, in fact is quite a good person here. One of the best people on this forum if you really look at it
-Mr.DeMartino


  • Mr C
  • The Legend

    • 2138

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10546 on: October 03, 2019, 09:21:53 pm »
Since you brought it up, why was that Lemon Tree song - a German minor hit from 1995 - so popular here?

And on a similar note, can anyone explain to me the current Korean obsession with Vincent van Gough? I know that film Loving Vincent came out recently but even before that, I'd started to notice van Gough motifs everywhere, and all of a sudden. I also had students proposing van Gough-related projects, which had never happened before. And to cap it all, there's now a van Gough-themed bistro near my apartment. Why did this all take off within the last 12 months?



Van Gogh's been popular in Korea for years since the middle school English book had a unit on him. Ask any Korean adult what their favourite painting is and i guarantee they'll either say 'Starry night' or the Scream (in the same unit)
Really? Um, not really.  Like for most non-Europeans/Westerners, the Impressionists and later movements are LONG-TIME favorites in Asia because they are 1) awesome, and 2) don't require the viewer to be read in on Christianity, European history and mythology.  Sure, Koreans and anyone else can appreciate Michelangelo's David as a perfect form, but you come to Venus and you wonder if she can really surf on an oyster shell.

Sin Saimdang's delicate paintings of insects (insects!) are amazing, but they don't get a single mention in any US children's art textbooks I've ever seen.  Just saying.

And, BTW, how and for what reason is someone disparaging anyone's admiration of van Gogh? Maybe DMT has a point sometimes.
Mr. C is not a bad person, in fact is quite a good person here. One of the best people on this forum if you really look at it
-Mr.DeMartino


  • stoat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1532

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10547 on: October 03, 2019, 10:23:00 pm »
Since you brought it up, why was that Lemon Tree song - a German minor hit from 1995 - so popular here?

And on a similar note, can anyone explain to me the current Korean obsession with Vincent van Gough? I know that film Loving Vincent came out recently but even before that, I'd started to notice van Gough motifs everywhere, and all of a sudden. I also had students proposing van Gough-related projects, which had never happened before. And to cap it all, there's now a van Gough-themed bistro near my apartment. Why did this all take off within the last 12 months?



Van Gogh's been popular in Korea for years since the middle school English book had a unit on him. Ask any Korean adult what their favourite painting is and i guarantee they'll either say 'Starry night' or the Scream (in the same unit)
Really? Um, not really.  Like for most non-Europeans/Westerners, the Impressionists and later movements are LONG-TIME favorites in Asia because they are 1) awesome, and 2) don't require the viewer to be read in on Christianity, European history and mythology.  Sure, Koreans and anyone else can appreciate Michelangelo's David as a perfect form, but you come to Venus and you wonder if she can really surf on an oyster shell.

Sin Saimdang's delicate paintings of insects (insects!) are amazing, but they don't get a single mention in any US children's art textbooks I've ever seen.  Just saying.

And, BTW, how and for what reason is someone disparaging anyone's admiration of van Gogh? Maybe DMT has a point sometimes.

Korea has a bigger Christian population than most European countries these days, but anyway Westerners don't tend to go  for those religious paintings as much as landscapes and portraits either .e .g.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/11427972/The-nations-favourite-paintings-revealed.html

I was specifically pointing out why I think Van Gogh and Starry night is particularly popular.  If you think that's disparaging fair enough, but as I mentioned the Koreans I brought it up with thought it was funny and come to think of it, it was actually them who told me about it being in the Middle school book.   


  • alexisalex
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1065

    • March 02, 2014, 05:10:24 pm
Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10548 on: October 04, 2019, 07:23:51 am »
As someone who plays 3 instruments and has an ABRSM grade 7 music theory certificate...

So the whole point of your post then (because it's not even worth your time and it bores you) is to tell everyone that you play three instruments and have a music theory certificate  :wink:

I clearly stated that trashing BTS would be a waste of time so that I could open up into a more meaningful discussion about musical taste. If the subject of the conversation is around BTS and why they're bad, to me at least, it seems perfectly reasonable to approach the discussion from an actual musical argument, rather than sour old-man feelings. 
Is your ego that delicate that you're so threatened by somebody who knows more than you in a particular area?

Since you're a layman on music, you're not going to understand or appreciate harmonic or melodic analysis and that's fine, you can still enjoy music. 

Well thank god for that!  Please teach us poor, uneducated laymen riff raff more about music so we can enjoy it properly!

I get the impression that you really don't read what I write before answering. Music can be appreciated on different levels, some of those levels require a certain understanding of how it works.
Music is simply what I spent my time studying. Other folks spent their time learning things I wouldn't have the first clue about and I'd listen if they had something to say. I hate to disappoint you, but upstaging you was really not the motivation for me to work my ass off through years of study and practice. I did it because I like music and wanted to appreciate it on a deeper level.

I really can't help you with your insecurities.



My insecurities, nice.  I read through the next four or five pages and you're still doing it.  I get that you know a lot about music but don't you see how it comes across as really snobbish or negging even?  Bringing up your guitar sweeping skills lol.  Why??  What did that add to the discussion? 

I think of other posters who have their own expertise (Kyndo with his science, CO2 movies, Ronnie's encyclopedic knowledge of Karl Pilkington) but their posts never have the same cocksure smugness as yours.  It might be just be the delivery in which case we can chalk it up to personality and humility.


  • zola
  • The Legend

    • 2917

    • September 30, 2012, 06:56:11 am
    • Korea
Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10549 on: October 04, 2019, 08:05:38 am »
Guys, guys! Can't you see that Martin has come in and torn this thread asunder?

Lets all just agree:

-Kpop is very awesome. And people who harass you on social media for making fun of it as a joke, are also very awesome. It's all good stuff. Dyed blonde bowl cuts for all!

-Starry Night, The Scream, or that one of Jesus in some Spanish church that an old lady touched up, it's all art and its all great. Fun, fun stuff. And i enjoy it all.

-Rock music is only liked by old white men. And tbh me and Martin are getting kind of sick of you guys. How about some toot tooting be bop? Little bit of Mavis Beacon? Yeah? That's what we grew up on. Rock is dead, get over it.

-As for our own personal musical ability, I'm sure we are all pretty good. And i would LOVE to get together for a jam session. Maybe lay down some tracks. No Nirvana covers, thank you very much. I'm thinking of a more funk infused Kpop. Aristocrat is probably going to want to come in and do some prog rock guitar solos. That's fine. Room for everyone, but we'll save it for the instrumental tracks.

In summary, this very same argument happens once every three to four months. And its apt that the second that Martin is unlocked from his time out room he comes in here and sprays his theories across the thread. But hey, thats part of the flavour of this place. We're living in a society here.
Kpip! - Martin 2018


  • tylerthegloob
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1503

    • September 28, 2016, 10:46:24 am
    • Busan
    more
Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10550 on: October 04, 2019, 08:34:30 am »
"kpip" - never forget


  • OnNut81
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1216

    • April 01, 2011, 03:01:41 pm
    • Anyang
Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10551 on: October 04, 2019, 09:25:18 am »
Guys, I'm not saying that everyone has to love Prince. I'm just saying it's weird that in globalized society with an internet-savvy population, a group of four educated Korean people had never heard of a global pop star who was, commercially speaking, the most successful chart act of the 1980s, who sold over 100 million records worldwide, played in massive Japanese arenas dozens of times, and was the subject of enormous international media attention when he died a few years ago. 

Not judging them for it... Just expressing my surprise.

I get that.  But, other than when he changed his name to a symbol I can't think of much I knew about what Prince was doing until that last fateful elevator ride.  He was huge in North America in the eighties and his fans still followed him but I can't recall him being on my radar in the nineties.  Up until fairly recently Korea was a flyover country for major musical acts.  People don't know Springsteen here.  You can find loads of people wearing shirts with the Stones' tongue logo and not know The Rolling Stones.  I've had a few conversations with younger adults that have talked about Maroon 5 and that God awful "Moves like Jagger" song but not have a clue who or what a Jagger is.  In, short, unless it's Elvis, The Beatles, or Michael Jackson I'm surprised when Koreans know about well known western artists. 


Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10552 on: October 04, 2019, 09:40:03 am »
Guys, guys! Can't you see that Martin has come in and torn this thread asunder?

Lets all just agree:

-Kpop is very awesome. And people who harass you on social media for making fun of it as a joke, are also very awesome. It's all good stuff. Dyed blonde bowl cuts for all!

-Starry Night, The Scream, or that one of Jesus in some Spanish church that an old lady touched up, it's all art and its all great. Fun, fun stuff. And i enjoy it all.

-Rock music is only liked by old white men. And tbh me and Martin are getting kind of sick of you guys. How about some toot tooting be bop? Little bit of Mavis Beacon? Yeah? That's what we grew up on. Rock is dead, get over it.

-As for our own personal musical ability, I'm sure we are all pretty good. And i would LOVE to get together for a jam session. Maybe lay down some tracks. No Nirvana covers, thank you very much. I'm thinking of a more funk infused Kpop. Aristocrat is probably going to want to come in and do some prog rock guitar solos. That's fine. Room for everyone, but we'll save it for the instrumental tracks.

In summary, this very same argument happens once every three to four months. And its apt that the second that Martin is unlocked from his time out room he comes in here and sprays his theories across the thread. But hey, thats part of the flavour of this place. We're living in a society here.

prog, hard rock and classic rock are nice and all, but one of the most tiring things about being a guitarist is all the guitar community of balding, old white guys, stuck in that classic rock rut. They've made rock, in general, a bit unbearable for me; if I have to hear another old, white guy noodling inside the blues scale, I'm going to sell my guitars and focus on piano. I've been on a Future Funk and Neo-Soul kick these past few weeks and experimenting with ways to marry the explosive rock guitar, leads with those addictive beats of Future Funk and the contemporary sexiness of Neo-Soul. While I'm no K-pop fan, the instrumentals behind Infintie's 'Chaser' and Girl's Generation's 'Twinkle' are undeniably cool.

I've always believed that we're all privileged to be living in the richest, most accessible, interesting and diverse period in musical history.


  • stoat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1532

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10553 on: October 04, 2019, 10:03:28 am »
Guys, guys! Can't you see that Martin has come in and torn this thread asunder?

Lets all just agree:

-Kpop is very awesome. And people who harass you on social media for making fun of it as a joke, are also very awesome. It's all good stuff. Dyed blonde bowl cuts for all!

-Starry Night, The Scream, or that one of Jesus in some Spanish church that an old lady touched up, it's all art and its all great. Fun, fun stuff. And i enjoy it all.

-Rock music is only liked by old white men. And tbh me and Martin are getting kind of sick of you guys. How about some toot tooting be bop? Little bit of Mavis Beacon? Yeah? That's what we grew up on. Rock is dead, get over it.

-As for our own personal musical ability, I'm sure we are all pretty good. And i would LOVE to get together for a jam session. Maybe lay down some tracks. No Nirvana covers, thank you very much. I'm thinking of a more funk infused Kpop. Aristocrat is probably going to want to come in and do some prog rock guitar solos. That's fine. Room for everyone, but we'll save it for the instrumental tracks.

In summary, this very same argument happens once every three to four months. And its apt that the second that Martin is unlocked from his time out room he comes in here and sprays his theories across the thread. But hey, thats part of the flavour of this place. We're living in a society here.

prog, hard rock and classic rock are nice and all, but one of the most tiring things about being a guitarist is all the guitar community of balding, old white guys, stuck in that classic rock rut. They've made rock, in general, a bit unbearable for me; if I have to hear another old, white guy noodling inside the blues scale, I'm going to sell my guitars and focus on piano. I've been on a Future Funk and Neo-Soul kick these past few weeks and experimenting with ways to marry the explosive rock guitar, leads with those addictive beats of Future Funk and the contemporary sexiness of Neo-Soul. While I'm no K-pop fan, the instrumentals behind Infintie's 'Chaser' and Girl's Generation's 'Twinkle' are undeniably cool.

I've always believed that we're all privileged to be living in the richest, most accessible, interesting and diverse period in musical history.

Yeah, one of the most tiring things about being a white hip hop singer like me is all the community of fat old black guys in their baggy clothes, stuck in that classic 80/90s rut. They've made the genre, in general, a bit unbearable for me; if I have to hear another old, black guy MCing or rhyming along to public enemy or Run DMC , I'm going to buy a guitar and focus on rock. 
« Last Edit: October 04, 2019, 10:28:48 am by stoat »


  • fka
  • Expert Waygook

    • 513

    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10554 on: October 04, 2019, 10:11:36 am »
Quote
While I'm no K-pop fan, the instrumentals behind Infintie's 'Chaser' and Girl's Generation's 'Twinkle' are undeniably cool.

"All Night" by GG and Red Velvet's "Bad Boy" as well.  Apply some vocoder and add a dash more retro irony and you're not a millions miles away from Daft Punk. K-Pop is generally a world of abject lameness but lurking under the surface is some good production that almost justifies its success.

And that's reason why I'm surprised nobody has reserved their ire for those awful, awful Koreans that assault you in coffee shops. If there's a style of Korean music that really deserves hate, it's that one. I would rather listen to almost anything than some "sensitive"  loser in an oversized turtleneck sweater bellowing his contrived laments over a torturously saccharine piano melody. Literally every form of Korean music is superior to that one, trot included. And that's before I even get started on the buskers offering their ersatz version of this crap in the park...



  • OnNut81
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1216

    • April 01, 2011, 03:01:41 pm
    • Anyang
Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10555 on: October 04, 2019, 10:25:37 am »
Quote
While I'm no K-pop fan, the instrumentals behind Infintie's 'Chaser' and Girl's Generation's 'Twinkle' are undeniably cool.

"All Night" by GG and Red Velvet's "Bad Boy" as well.  Apply some vocoder and add a dash more retro irony and you're not a millions miles away from Daft Punk. K-Pop is generally a world of abject lameness but lurking under the surface is some good production that almost justifies its success.

And that's reason why I'm surprised nobody has reserved their ire for those awful, awful Koreans that assault you in coffee shops. If there's a style of Korean music that really deserves hate, it's that one. I would rather listen to almost anything than some "sensitive"  loser in an oversized turtleneck sweater bellowing his contrived laments over a torturously saccharine piano melody. Literally every form of Korean music is superior to that one, trot included. And that's before I even get started on the buskers offering their ersatz version of this crap in the park...



You're forgetting the talent of the cyclist/mini-sax players that can be found under an overpass on bike trails.  They are usually spread out every few kilometres so that they don't drown each other out.


  • fka
  • Expert Waygook

    • 513

    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10556 on: October 04, 2019, 10:49:06 am »
I've yet to experience this, but would like to rectify that ASAP. 


Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10557 on: October 04, 2019, 10:53:09 am »
Quote
While I'm no K-pop fan, the instrumentals behind Infintie's 'Chaser' and Girl's Generation's 'Twinkle' are undeniably cool.

"All Night" by GG and Red Velvet's "Bad Boy" as well.  Apply some vocoder and add a dash more retro irony and you're not a millions miles away from Daft Punk. K-Pop is generally a world of abject lameness but lurking under the surface is some good production that almost justifies its success.

And that's reason why I'm surprised nobody has reserved their ire for those awful, awful Koreans that assault you in coffee shops. If there's a style of Korean music that really deserves hate, it's that one. I would rather listen to almost anything than some "sensitive"  loser in an oversized turtleneck sweater bellowing his contrived laments over a torturously saccharine piano melody. Literally every form of Korean music is superior to that one, trot included. And that's before I even get started on the buskers offering their ersatz version of this crap in the park...



Oh, Allah, save me from Korean ballads! Trot has a goofy, folksy and soviet-esque charm to it. If anything, trot has character. Korean ballads have the character and feel of a botched abortion, followed by the excitement of a steady diet of white rice.

In all seriousness, anyone who has a passion for music needs to watch this. It discusses approaching music you don't like and learning from it. The first step is to isolate and identify exactly what it is about a musician or genre you don't like, then, explore that to learn more about yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaIJjyvkS1Y

What I dislike in K-pop (just the music)

- Even in the context of pop, it's pretty damn generic
- Very predictable song structure (see above)
- The overused and cheesy key-change for the final chorus
- I prefer instrumental music
- Progressions and melodies are VERY afraid of not sounding pretty or cutesy

What I like about K-pop

- Some pretty clever use of effects at times (verbs, harmonizers, shifters, vibes, swells etc.)
- Beats, while pretty much a copy and paste from hip-hop and EDM, are educational to someone from a rock background.
- Penchant for sampling and using re-harmonized 90s rnb, which I love. Gives me ideas on how to breath new life into older music.

With Korean ballads, it's probably one of the few genres, along with mumble-rap, which has NOTHING in it that I enjoy.




Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10558 on: October 04, 2019, 11:10:23 am »
I will point out that the kind of Korean adult Westerners teach in Korea are not the 'average' person in the US or the UK. In Seoul they are generally the elite of the elite. Often educated abroad at some stage and coming from the richer areas of Seoul, They probably went to various hagwans as kids, including art hagwans. 
I've taught plenty of adult students ranging from "the elite" to people who would be considered very very middle class.

Also the elite of the elite don't need Hagwons or teachers. They went to middle and high school and college abroad. If anything they might need a Korean tutor.

Yeah, one of the most tiring things about being a white hip hop singer like me is all the community of fat old black guys in their baggy clothes, stuck in that classic 80/90s rut. They've made the genre, in general, a bit unbearable for me; if I have to hear another old, black guy MCing or rhyming along to public enemy or Run DMC , I'm going to buy a guitar and focus on rock.
There's a big difference. For one thing, hip-hop fans seem to have aged pretty well and accepted the evolution of things. Of course there's still some nostalgia and people who are stuck in a certain period and hating on new trends, but by and large you don't see near the same level of stuck in the past. Also, hip-hop fans aren't nearly as obnoxious about declaring artists from their genre of music the greatest ever, and are used to encountering people who have little knowledge/interest in their genre.  Additionally, you don't see hip-hop fans getting all upset at Kpop or other kinds of music. The kpop hating seems to come overwhelmingly from one direction. You don't see heavy reggaeton or hip-hop or EDM fans on here griping about Kpop. The haters also happen to be overwhelmingly male, which is odd. Even on a site like this that skews male, it's still a bit way out of whack. I think Chinguetti kind of hinted at some underlying issues when she pointed this out and the hate being especially directed at boy bands.

Only rock fans seem to have this kind of attitude and I'm not quite sure what brings it out. Save for perhaps classical/jazz snobs and hipsters, most other fans at least get that people like all kinds of music and someone not liking your kind of music doesn't make them ignorant or worthy of ridicule. Even country music fans get this, after all they too understand what it's like to be part of a subculture and dismissed and ridiculed.

Like I said, this really does sometimes echo Disco Demolition Night
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disco_Demolition_Night#Cultural_significance

Quote
The chance to yell "disco sucks" meant more than simply a musical style choice. It was a chance to push back on a whole set of social dynamics that lay just beneath the surface of a minor battle between a DJ and a radio station that decided to change formats. More importantly, it was a chance for a whole lot of people to say they didn't like the way the world was changing around them, or who they saw as the potential victors in a cultural and demographic war.

However if this is like DDN, then the Kpop haters should relax because Kpop will end up like disco, so no reason to get all worked up.


  • stoat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1532

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10559 on: October 04, 2019, 11:18:31 am »
Quote
There's a big difference. For one thing, hip-hop fans seem to have aged pretty well and accepted the evolution of things. Of course there's still some nostalgia and people who are stuck in a certain period and hating on new trends, but by and large you don't see near the same level of stuck in the past. Also, hip-hop fans aren't nearly as obnoxious about declaring artists from their genre of music the greatest ever, and are used to encountering people who have little knowledge/interest in their genre.  Additionally, you don't see hip-hop fans getting all upset at Kpop or other kinds of music. The kpop hating seems to come overwhelmingly from one direction. You don't see heavy reggaeton or hip-hop or EDM fans on here griping about Kpop. The haters also happen to be overwhelmingly male, which is odd. Even on a site like this that skews male, it's still a bit way out of whack. I think Chinguetti kind of hinted at some underlying issues when she pointed this out and the hate being especially directed at boy bands.

Do you actually read what people write on here? Aristocrat was being racist about rock musicians and I called him out for it by doing a parody of being racist about Hip Hop musicians. Neither of us was talking about fans.