RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0

Edit: You know, at this stage I would much prefer someone come in here and actually defend Kpop properly. It would be more interesting than this repeat argument you present every 3 months.

I already gave a proper defense: If you like it, listen to it.

Nothing more needs to be said when it comes to music.

Millenniums of art criticism disagrees.

Millennia of art criticism disagree?

I recall from my Philosophy of Music class that music as an art form emerged in the 1600's. The Ancient philosophers treated music as akin to science, education and morality.

Shockingly eurocentric view.
Regardless, I said art criticism, which i promise you was around well before the 1600s.

Edit: And would you look at that "Critical references to music (often deprecating performers or styles) can be found in early literature, including, for example, in Plato's Laws and in the writings of medieval music theorists."

2. what's wrong with rock music fans? seriously. did i miss something?

What's wrong with Kpop fans? I think in both cases nothing is wrong. But if you're going to belittle one group, then turnabout is fair play and there is a lot that can be said about people getting into their mid-late 30 or are in their 50s and 60s and are stuck in 1993 or 1970 listening to the same old stuff and getting upset that kids are listening to something different and getting butthurt that people don't like their band or don't care about their music. If there's ever a group of music fans that is the mirror image of Kpopstans, its rock fans. Not everyone has put rock at the center of their musical existence for the past 60 years, but some rock fans act like it should be.

yeah sure. but the fact people still listen to it 30 years later must mean something. i'd be surprised if any current kpop song is listened to 30 years from now

Why? People still listen to Bobby Brown, New Edition, Kylie Minogue, etc. etc. 30 years later. People still listen to The Supremes and the Delfonics. People still listen to Disco. As for actual old Kpop, people still listen to stuff from back in the day. If something still gets airplay 10 years later, it's probably going to get airplay 30 years later.

Just because YOU don't like it, doesn't mean it will be forgotten.

do western pop artists ever lip sync while dancing? not sure they would get away with it (i swear i've just "scandals" in the past of artists being accused of it. so i guess it's not acceptable generally?)

Depends on how much they're dancing. If you're doing any kind of dance that would require heavy activity and respiration while performing it, you're going to lipsync.

but the fans are often insane. that's my only point. i wouldn't be upset if someone said my favourite band sucked. but getting defensive over (wrongly) perceived slights? ughhh

Like I said, I think rock fans are some of the most insecure music fans out there. As I've said- How many threads do Kpop fans go on and tell other people their music sucks? Zero. How many threads do rock fans go on and tell kpop fans their music sucks? A ton." That's like, the definition of insecure. It's the rock fans who blow a gasket when you don't agree that "Insert Rock Band X" was the greatest of all time or the greatest of the decade.
 Heck, 30 years ago rock fans blew up a bunch of disco records and started a riot because of that insecurity. It's kind of similar to what you're seeing here with their Kpop hatred. "OMG, these people of different backgrounds are coming in and making this music that's taking the spotlight off of us and casting it somewhere else, and even worse, instead of being moody and anger filled, they are happy and bubbly. We need to trash it!"

Or how about the shock that you don't know/care about some "legendary" rock band?
"You don't know who Green Day is?!?!?!?!?!"
"No, do you know who Patti LaBelle is?"

In some ways rock fans come across as culturally isolated as Kpopstans.

1. all i'm saying is that compared to people who like other genres, kpop fans are next level. i'm 99% sure everyone agrees about this. at this point i don't even think it's debatable

2. i have literally never heard of Bobby Brown, New Edition, The Supremes, Delfonics. i only know kylie from your list

3. yeah. more about performance than music ability

4. i'm saying kpop fans suck, not kpop (although, kpop does suck, but that' not my point)

5. i would only say "you don't know <band>?" because it's some famous band that everyone in that country must know. if you've never heard of the beatles, that's a bit weird (not having not listened to them, just not having heard of them)

5. i would only say "you don't know <band>?" because it's some famous band that everyone in that country must know. if you've never heard of the beatles, that's a bit weird (not having not listened to them, just not having heard of them)

At the risk of inflaming things further, I feel like this is a good place to point out that I once had dinner with a group of Korean in their early 30s who had no idea who Prince was. They'd never heard of him, didn't recognize any of his songs, and showed the same lack of recognition when I showed them his picture. I have to say, I found that pretty shocking. I know we should take cultural factors into account, but to me that feels like reaching adulthood and saying you've never heard of a book called Harry Potter or a movie called Star Wars.

Pretty much every professional musician will disagree with you. You get a call from a client, "Hi, we need a track for our laxative commercial by 5pm" You look at the storyboard and it's a guy in discomfort, followed by him being given the product and finally relief. You've got 3hrs to compose, record and mix the track.
From your training, you know exactly how to convey these emotions through sound. Discomfort has a sound and it's very tense and dissonant, ok, so maybe starting with some dominant or augmented chords to give that jaring and uncomfortable feel, the tension builds up to say the min/Maj 7th chord, which you use as a bridge and to convey the idea of discovering a clue, finally it resolves to a basic triad tonic, or a sus2 if you want to add a bit of extra openness. The resolution creates a feeling of relief  and release. If you wanted extra campiness, you could arpeggiate the final chord with a harp to give it that stereotypical light and airy feel. 

Done, you record, mix and send off your work. You get a call back, client loves it, but the melody is to similar to a popular song and the client is afraid of a copyright issues. No problem, you quickly reharmonize the entire track, modulate it a bit and boom, similar thing but somehow different. "How did you do that?" client asks, "magic" you reply, remembering the time your parents thought you were a computer whizz when you turned the router on and off to get the internet back online.

That emotion, feeling, and subjectivism is what separates a forgotten advertising jingle from a successful one. And what separates an advertising jingle from a Top-10 hit. It's not simply structure. There's something beyond it.

You're oversimplifying and, frankly, it's very common for those with limited musical experience to use words like 'feeling', 'magic' and 'subjectivity' to refer to a process they don't understand, a process that has as much in common with mathematics as art. Of course, there are those magical moments of inspiration, but that accounts for like 5% of a composers work. Movies, documentaries and media like to pick stories of these magical moments of inspiration and retell them because, it's romantic and makes good T.V. They don't tell stories of the vast majority of compositions made the slow and tedious way.

The vast majority of top-10 songs are, were and always will be pop songs. Do I need to remind you that pop is short for 'popular'? Pop music is supposed to have broad appeal and it's got a stronger marketing hand involved than, say, metal. The top-10 is not a metric of quality.

While there is certainly an element of this, given the massive amounts of drugs many were on, or the lack of formal music education many musicians have had, you can't discount raw inspiration, experimentation and just jamming. There's certainly a technical foundation, but the creative process for artists and musicians, while it CAN take on a more technical form, does not always do so.

Much of the music of the world has been created by people, often repressed or illiterate, in rough conditions. They didn't have formal theoretical training. They just had their voice and their hands. Or maybe a harmonica or a fiddle or a banjo. And they made music.

Yeah, well this argument has always gone on, even amongst musicians and it's  always the lazy, sub-par or stubborn musicians who say things like "I don't wanna learn theory, it ruins the feel, man." or "Just feel the groove, bro, theories for nerds." 
The argument that Hendrix had no formal training and pretty much revolutionised how we approach the guitar is always used, to which I ask "Are you Hendrix?" and "Did Hendrix's lack of theory make him a better guitarist?" The vast majority or pioneering musicians knew their craft, inside and out,  and only a few prodigies didn't... of course, these are the most documented; everyone knows John Lennon couldn't read music and everyone remembers that because it's an interesting factoid, but the thousands of brilliant musicians who could read music... why would people remember that? It's not noteworthy.

You're also not taking into account the context. The Beatles revolutionised everything as the opportunity was there, they were the right guys, in the right place at the right time. Before the Beatles, boys  tried to emulate adults and their fathers, during their teenage years and daughters began emulating their mothers. The Beatles took the opportunity to create youth culture.
Chuck Berry grew up in a time and place where country and blues music were hitting their stride. It was only a matter of time before someone got the idea to combine the two and speed up the tempo to create Rock 'n Roll; right person in the right place at the right time.

A trained ear will tell you that drugs, sex and rock 'n roll rock is all pretty... samey.  Don't get me wrong, I love it, but when you don't have any music training, you usually just copy what you've heard from someone else and rock music has a pretty damn simple formula. It's like trying to write great poetry or a great novel with extremely limited vocabulary. It's possible, yes, but much more difficult. Experimentation? Huh? You think a musician just hits random notes on the neck till something sounds nice? You experiment by understanding something, then breaking it down and adding different elements, this requires a certain degree of theory.

Finally, have you jammed with other musicians? I have, I've played in bands and got paid to do it. When playing with other musicians, your chops aren't nearly as important as your ability to communicate with your fellow band members. Do you know how frustrating and difficult it is for everyone when that one guy doesn't know what you mean if you're asking for a ii-V-I?
Theory is the language musicians use to communicate. I'm sure we can all relate to how frustrating it is to work with someone who doesn't speak your language. 

I hope this helps argue that there's almost universal consensus among competent recreational and professional musicians that magical inspiration from la-la land to compose masterpieces plays, at best, a tiny and unreliable role in the making of great music. Great music is made the same way as most other great things in life, persistence, discipline and hard work... It sounds less inspiring and magical as the movies, but that's reality.

5. i would only say "you don't know <band>?" because it's some famous band that everyone in that country must know. if you've never heard of the beatles, that's a bit weird (not having not listened to them, just not having heard of them)

At the risk of inflaming things further, I feel like this is a good place to point out that I once had dinner with a group of Korean in their early 30s who had no idea who Prince was. They'd never heard of him, didn't recognize any of his songs, and showed the same lack of recognition when I showed them his picture. I have to say, I found that pretty shocking. I know we should take cultural factors into account, but to me that feels like reaching adulthood and saying you've never heard of a book called Harry Potter or a movie called Star Wars.

tbh i've never really listened to prince. or seen star wars. i couldn't name many "classic" korean singers though, to be fair (which is my point in the first place)

fka: At the risk of inflaming things further, I feel like this is a good place to point out that I once had dinner with a group of Korean in their early 30s who had no idea who Prince was. They'd never heard of him, didn't recognize any of his songs, and showed the same lack of recognition when I showed them his picture. I have to say, I found that pretty shocking. I know we should take cultural factors into account, but to me that feels like reaching adulthood and saying you've never heard of a book called Harry Potter or a movie called Star Wars.

I was in my early teens when Prince got big.  I absolutely hated when Doves Cry came on the radio.  I would actually be surprised if any Koreans knew who Prince was.  Purple Rain was huge and he had already gotten big after that album with 1999 and Little Red Corvette, but it just wasn't on the same level as the Thriller phenomenon.  This was the days before internet and Michael Jackson was front and centre whether you liked it or not for a couple of years.  Prince didn't hit that level.  Everyone knew about him, but I couldn't have told you much about him beyond his music other than I think he once dated Sheila E. 

Aristocrat: Still holding out on the long winded and boring rejoinder I see.  I would go the more succinct route. 

Studied musicians generally need a day job.  The only people who are interested in hearing about music theory are other people who have studied music theory.  Accomplished musicians proficient in music theory feel better about their job in the non-music related field when they can put down popular artists for being trite and simplistic. 

High five Of Teenagers!

Guys, I'm not saying that everyone has to love Prince. I'm just saying it's weird that in globalized society with an internet-savvy population, a group of four educated Korean people had never heard of a global pop star who was, commercially speaking, the most successful chart act of the 1980s, who sold over 100 million records worldwide, played in massive Japanese arenas dozens of times, and was the subject of enormous international media attention when he died a few years ago. 

Not judging them for it... Just expressing my surprise.

   Korean people had never heard of a global pop star who was, commercially speaking, the most successful chart act of the 19i80s

Michael jackson surely

Not judging them for it... Just expressing my surprise.

Exactly. There are many times where I think that people aren't STUPID, but I really can't believe that they simply aren't aware of some things.

My friend in Canada, smart guy, great guy, but he asked me what John Lennon was doing these days and he wasn't joking.

Like, you don't have to tell me about the making of Imagine. But to not know that he was shot? Like, Jesus.

commercially speaking, the most successful chart act of the 1980s,

I'd always give Koreans a pass on most things around the 80s considering until the Olympics in 1988, they didn't really have freedom of movement outside of the country.  That was when Korea started to open up.  The political and social climate around that time wasn't exactly global as there were military dictators.  I suppose even after Roh Tae Woo (1993) western cultural and music influence was increasing but it was still limited.   

John Lemon

John Lemon was shot in the pips and lost a lot of juice. 

   Korean people had never heard of a global pop star who was, commercially speaking, the most successful chart act of the 19i80s

Michael jackson surely

queen? although most people didn't know queen until 2 years ago....now queen are everyone's favourite band. sigh

   Korean people had never heard of a global pop star who was, commercially speaking, the most successful chart act of the 19i80s

Michael jackson surely

queen? although most people didn't know queen until 2 years ago....now queen are everyone's favourite band. sigh

Queen had their biggest hit in the seventies and we're doing separate projects in the latter half of the 80s. Jackson was going strong throughout the period.

Like, you don't have to tell me about the making of Imagine. But to not know that he was shot? Like, Jesus.

What are you talking about? He was crucified, not shot.

Not judging them for it... Just expressing my surprise.

Exactly. There are many times where I think that people aren't STUPID, but I really can't believe that they simply aren't aware of some things.

My friend in Canada, smart guy, great guy, but he asked me what John Lennon was doing these days and he wasn't joking.

Like, you don't have to tell me about the making of Imagine. But to not know that he was shot? Like, Jesus.

I think everyone has that "thing" that they don't know about and is assumed to be basic.

I imagine if you put one of us in a kitchen or told to fix a car or do some sort of math problem or some kind of farming or gardening or a bit of history or something with pop music in 2019 or world geography or whatever, sooner or later we'd miss something basic.

I've learned never to judge someone's intelligence or worth of a character based on stuff like that. Some people are just into different stuff. Some people aren't that into music and are more into crafts or film or sports or books or cooking or whatever.

Also, I don't think some of us grasp how irrelevant the Beatles have become over the past decade or so. They held strong through the 90s but I've noticed there's been a real drop off. Also, with some cultures, the Beatles just weren't that big of a deal.

Anyways ever since Lennon got taken out of Red Square, his star has waned.

Guys, I'm not saying that everyone has to love Prince. I'm just saying it's weird that in globalized society with an internet-savvy population, a group of four educated Korean people had never heard of a global pop star who was, commercially speaking, the most successful chart act of the 1980s, who sold over 100 million records worldwide, played in massive Japanese arenas dozens of times, and was the subject of enormous international media attention when he died a few years ago. 

Not judging them for it... Just expressing my surprise.

Times have moved on and things were more distant back then. It's a bit like someone in 1976 being mystified that people in Japan didn't know who Glenn Miller and Bennie Goodman were.

commercially speaking, the most successful chart act of the 1980s,

I'd always give Koreans a pass on most things around the 80s considering until the Olympics in 1988, they didn't really have freedom of movement outside of the country.  That was when Korea started to open up.  The political and social climate around that time wasn't exactly global as there were military dictators.  I suppose even after Roh Tae Woo (1993) western cultural and music influence was increasing but it was still limited.   

That's one factor, but I'd put my money on a fair bit of it being the language barrier, homogeneous and extremely insular culture.

I was having a discussion about video games with my 5th grade class. None of them (25 students) could name a single gaming console other than the Switch. Yes, I asked them if they'd heard of Playstation or XBox, nope. I tried PC games and nobody had heard of Starcraft, 1 or 2 (FYI, Starcraft was probably more popular than Overwatch, Battlegrounds and LOL combined, during the late 90s and early 2000s) . I've come across students who've never heard of Harry Potter, The Matrix or Lord of the Rings.

I understand they're kids and might not focus on the past, but Playstation and XBox? Come on! Contemporary Korean culture focuses on the now and many people tend to live in a tiny little bubble, which they rarely venture out of.

1. all i'm saying is that compared to people who like other genres, kpop fans are next level. i'm 99% sure everyone agrees about this. at this point i don't even think it's debatable

Similar but different. I say this because of your comment below-

2. i have literally never heard of Bobby Brown, New Edition, The Supremes, Delfonics. i only know kylie from your list

You've never heard of The Supremes?  Diana frickin Ross?

Okay, this is a delicate matter because it deals with generalities, but I think it's something you are unaware of: What's considered the "greatest" and "most significant" music is NOT the same for black people as white people. A lot of black people might like a couple of Beatles songs, but they aren't anywhere in the conversations for greatest musicians ever. And Nirvana? Please.

And one thing a lot of black people have to deal with when it comes to music is they get questioned and often dismissed when they mention that they don't really know much about the Beatles or don't care about them or have never heard of Smashing Pumpkins or Sublime or whatever. And this isn't just black folks, but can even apply to other POC communities and even to country music fans or classical music fans.

And yes, to a lot of people this gets aggravating. If you've ever worked in a mixed-race workplace setting with a stereo, the battles that ensue and the racial divide that happens highlight this divide. The whole rock-centric view has got the same kind of entitlement and ignorance as some of the worst Kpopstans. You're just blind to it because you assume your taste is normal and that they're weird, just as they assume they're the normal ones and your music is "weird".

I'm not saying you need to change your tastes or anything, but if you don't even know who The Supremes are, maybe you should hold off on calling Kpop fans uninformed. And try and be aware that music is diverse.

I understand they're kids and might not focus on the past, but Playstation and XBox? Come on! Contemporary Korean culture focuses on the now and many people tend to live in a tiny little bubble, which they rarely venture out of.

I think many of us forget what it's like to be a kid and how insular our worlds can be. When AppleIIGS and NES were all the rage, none of us had heard of ColecoVision or Telstar.

Also, parents might buy their kids a portable to shut them up in the car, but a whole system in front of the TV?

You do realize there are millions of Americans, many of them adults, who don't give a flying F about video game consoles and wouldn't have the vaguest idea what you were talking about as well?

This idea that someone is stupid and insular because they aren't knowledgeable about the things one deems as important is an attitude that quite frankly, seems stupid and insular.

I think people who have this attitude need to be dropped into the middle of a situation where things outside their comfort zone are deemed "common knowledge" and have to put up with the same kind of condescension.

Stop focusing so much on what your kids don't know, focus more on what they do know and encourage that some more. Who cares if they don't know much about the XBox but know a lot about the Switch? What damn difference does that make? Go out and have fun with your games. "You're hardcore into Switch? That's awesome, have fun! Why don't you tell me about your favorite game? (But don't forget your homework, and go play some soccer and get outside)"

1. all i'm saying is that compared to people who like other genres, kpop fans are next level. i'm 99% sure everyone agrees about this. at this point i don't even think it's debatable

Similar but different. I say this because of your comment below-

2. i have literally never heard of Bobby Brown, New Edition, The Supremes, Delfonics. i only know kylie from your list

You've never heard of The Supremes?  Diana frickin Ross?

Okay, this is a delicate matter because it deals with generalities, but I think it's something you are unaware of: What's considered the "greatest" and "most significant" music is NOT the same for black people as white people. A lot of black people might like a couple of Beatles songs, but they aren't anywhere in the conversations for greatest musicians ever. And Nirvana? Please.

And one thing a lot of black people have to deal with when it comes to music is they get questioned and often dismissed when they mention that they don't really know much about the Beatles or don't care about them or have never heard of Smashing Pumpkins or Sublime or whatever. And this isn't just black folks, but can even apply to other POC communities and even to country music fans or classical music fans.

And yes, to a lot of people this gets aggravating. If you've ever worked in a mixed-race workplace setting with a stereo, the battles that ensue and the racial divide that happens highlight this divide. The whole rock-centric view has got the same kind of entitlement and ignorance as some of the worst Kpopstans. You're just blind to it because you assume your taste is normal and that they're weird, just as they assume they're the normal ones and your music is "weird".

I'm not saying you need to change your tastes or anything, but if you don't even know who The Supremes are, maybe you should hold off on calling Kpop fans uninformed. And try and be aware that music is diverse.

have heard of diana ross, never listened. i'm not calling kpop fans uninformed, i'm calling them crazy
(not sure how this argument seems to have changed. this whole thing seems to have stemmed from someone calling nirvana a boyband, and refusing to admit bts are a boyband)