Quote from: zola on October 01, 2019, 02:21:22 pmQuote from: Mr.DeMartino on October 01, 2019, 01:58:29 pmQuote from: zola on October 01, 2019, 01:40:16 pmEdit: You know, at this stage I would much prefer someone come in here and actually defend Kpop properly. It would be more interesting than this repeat argument you present every 3 months. I already gave a proper defense: If you like it, listen to it.Nothing more needs to be said when it comes to music. Millenniums of art criticism disagrees.Millennia of art criticism disagree?I recall from my Philosophy of Music class that music as an art form emerged in the 1600's. The Ancient philosophers treated music as akin to science, education and morality.
Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on October 01, 2019, 01:58:29 pmQuote from: zola on October 01, 2019, 01:40:16 pmEdit: You know, at this stage I would much prefer someone come in here and actually defend Kpop properly. It would be more interesting than this repeat argument you present every 3 months. I already gave a proper defense: If you like it, listen to it.Nothing more needs to be said when it comes to music. Millenniums of art criticism disagrees.
Quote from: zola on October 01, 2019, 01:40:16 pmEdit: You know, at this stage I would much prefer someone come in here and actually defend Kpop properly. It would be more interesting than this repeat argument you present every 3 months. I already gave a proper defense: If you like it, listen to it.Nothing more needs to be said when it comes to music.
Edit: You know, at this stage I would much prefer someone come in here and actually defend Kpop properly. It would be more interesting than this repeat argument you present every 3 months.
Quote from: oglop on September 30, 2019, 04:04:52 pm2. what's wrong with rock music fans? seriously. did i miss something?What's wrong with Kpop fans? I think in both cases nothing is wrong. But if you're going to belittle one group, then turnabout is fair play and there is a lot that can be said about people getting into their mid-late 30 or are in their 50s and 60s and are stuck in 1993 or 1970 listening to the same old stuff and getting upset that kids are listening to something different and getting butthurt that people don't like their band or don't care about their music. If there's ever a group of music fans that is the mirror image of Kpopstans, its rock fans. Not everyone has put rock at the center of their musical existence for the past 60 years, but some rock fans act like it should be.Quote yeah sure. but the fact people still listen to it 30 years later must mean something. i'd be surprised if any current kpop song is listened to 30 years from nowWhy? People still listen to Bobby Brown, New Edition, Kylie Minogue, etc. etc. 30 years later. People still listen to The Supremes and the Delfonics. People still listen to Disco. As for actual old Kpop, people still listen to stuff from back in the day. If something still gets airplay 10 years later, it's probably going to get airplay 30 years later.Just because YOU don't like it, doesn't mean it will be forgotten.Quotedo western pop artists ever lip sync while dancing? not sure they would get away with it (i swear i've just "scandals" in the past of artists being accused of it. so i guess it's not acceptable generally?)Depends on how much they're dancing. If you're doing any kind of dance that would require heavy activity and respiration while performing it, you're going to lipsync.Quotebut the fans are often insane. that's my only point. i wouldn't be upset if someone said my favourite band sucked. but getting defensive over (wrongly) perceived slights? ughhhLike I said, I think rock fans are some of the most insecure music fans out there. As I've said- How many threads do Kpop fans go on and tell other people their music sucks? Zero. How many threads do rock fans go on and tell kpop fans their music sucks? A ton." That's like, the definition of insecure. It's the rock fans who blow a gasket when you don't agree that "Insert Rock Band X" was the greatest of all time or the greatest of the decade. Heck, 30 years ago rock fans blew up a bunch of disco records and started a riot because of that insecurity. It's kind of similar to what you're seeing here with their Kpop hatred. "OMG, these people of different backgrounds are coming in and making this music that's taking the spotlight off of us and casting it somewhere else, and even worse, instead of being moody and anger filled, they are happy and bubbly. We need to trash it!"Or how about the shock that you don't know/care about some "legendary" rock band?"You don't know who Green Day is?!?!?!?!?!""No, do you know who Patti LaBelle is?" In some ways rock fans come across as culturally isolated as Kpopstans.
2. what's wrong with rock music fans? seriously. did i miss something?
yeah sure. but the fact people still listen to it 30 years later must mean something. i'd be surprised if any current kpop song is listened to 30 years from now
do western pop artists ever lip sync while dancing? not sure they would get away with it (i swear i've just "scandals" in the past of artists being accused of it. so i guess it's not acceptable generally?)
but the fans are often insane. that's my only point. i wouldn't be upset if someone said my favourite band sucked. but getting defensive over (wrongly) perceived slights? ughhh
5. i would only say "you don't know <band>?" because it's some famous band that everyone in that country must know. if you've never heard of the beatles, that's a bit weird (not having not listened to them, just not having heard of them)
Quote from: Aristocrat on October 01, 2019, 12:35:21 pmPretty much every professional musician will disagree with you. You get a call from a client, "Hi, we need a track for our laxative commercial by 5pm" You look at the storyboard and it's a guy in discomfort, followed by him being given the product and finally relief. You've got 3hrs to compose, record and mix the track. From your training, you know exactly how to convey these emotions through sound. Discomfort has a sound and it's very tense and dissonant, ok, so maybe starting with some dominant or augmented chords to give that jaring and uncomfortable feel, the tension builds up to say the min/Maj 7th chord, which you use as a bridge and to convey the idea of discovering a clue, finally it resolves to a basic triad tonic, or a sus2 if you want to add a bit of extra openness. The resolution creates a feeling of relief and release. If you wanted extra campiness, you could arpeggiate the final chord with a harp to give it that stereotypical light and airy feel. Done, you record, mix and send off your work. You get a call back, client loves it, but the melody is to similar to a popular song and the client is afraid of a copyright issues. No problem, you quickly reharmonize the entire track, modulate it a bit and boom, similar thing but somehow different. "How did you do that?" client asks, "magic" you reply, remembering the time your parents thought you were a computer whizz when you turned the router on and off to get the internet back online. That emotion, feeling, and subjectivism is what separates a forgotten advertising jingle from a successful one. And what separates an advertising jingle from a Top-10 hit. It's not simply structure. There's something beyond it.
Pretty much every professional musician will disagree with you. You get a call from a client, "Hi, we need a track for our laxative commercial by 5pm" You look at the storyboard and it's a guy in discomfort, followed by him being given the product and finally relief. You've got 3hrs to compose, record and mix the track. From your training, you know exactly how to convey these emotions through sound. Discomfort has a sound and it's very tense and dissonant, ok, so maybe starting with some dominant or augmented chords to give that jaring and uncomfortable feel, the tension builds up to say the min/Maj 7th chord, which you use as a bridge and to convey the idea of discovering a clue, finally it resolves to a basic triad tonic, or a sus2 if you want to add a bit of extra openness. The resolution creates a feeling of relief and release. If you wanted extra campiness, you could arpeggiate the final chord with a harp to give it that stereotypical light and airy feel. Done, you record, mix and send off your work. You get a call back, client loves it, but the melody is to similar to a popular song and the client is afraid of a copyright issues. No problem, you quickly reharmonize the entire track, modulate it a bit and boom, similar thing but somehow different. "How did you do that?" client asks, "magic" you reply, remembering the time your parents thought you were a computer whizz when you turned the router on and off to get the internet back online.
While there is certainly an element of this, given the massive amounts of drugs many were on, or the lack of formal music education many musicians have had, you can't discount raw inspiration, experimentation and just jamming. There's certainly a technical foundation, but the creative process for artists and musicians, while it CAN take on a more technical form, does not always do so.
Much of the music of the world has been created by people, often repressed or illiterate, in rough conditions. They didn't have formal theoretical training. They just had their voice and their hands. Or maybe a harmonica or a fiddle or a banjo. And they made music.
Quote5. i would only say "you don't know <band>?" because it's some famous band that everyone in that country must know. if you've never heard of the beatles, that's a bit weird (not having not listened to them, just not having heard of them)At the risk of inflaming things further, I feel like this is a good place to point out that I once had dinner with a group of Korean in their early 30s who had no idea who Prince was. They'd never heard of him, didn't recognize any of his songs, and showed the same lack of recognition when I showed them his picture. I have to say, I found that pretty shocking. I know we should take cultural factors into account, but to me that feels like reaching adulthood and saying you've never heard of a book called Harry Potter or a movie called Star Wars.
Korean people had never heard of a global pop star who was, commercially speaking, the most successful chart act of the 19i80s
Not judging them for it... Just expressing my surprise.
commercially speaking, the most successful chart act of the 1980s,
John Lemon
Quote Korean people had never heard of a global pop star who was, commercially speaking, the most successful chart act of the 19i80s Michael jackson surely
Quote from: stoat on October 02, 2019, 08:33:36 amQuote Korean people had never heard of a global pop star who was, commercially speaking, the most successful chart act of the 19i80s Michael jackson surelyqueen? although most people didn't know queen until 2 years ago....now queen are everyone's favourite band. sigh
Like, you don't have to tell me about the making of Imagine. But to not know that he was shot? Like, Jesus.
Quote from: fka on October 02, 2019, 08:24:42 amNot judging them for it... Just expressing my surprise. Exactly. There are many times where I think that people aren't STUPID, but I really can't believe that they simply aren't aware of some things. My friend in Canada, smart guy, great guy, but he asked me what John Lennon was doing these days and he wasn't joking. Like, you don't have to tell me about the making of Imagine. But to not know that he was shot? Like, Jesus.
Guys, I'm not saying that everyone has to love Prince. I'm just saying it's weird that in globalized society with an internet-savvy population, a group of four educated Korean people had never heard of a global pop star who was, commercially speaking, the most successful chart act of the 1980s, who sold over 100 million records worldwide, played in massive Japanese arenas dozens of times, and was the subject of enormous international media attention when he died a few years ago. Not judging them for it... Just expressing my surprise.
Quote from: fka on October 02, 2019, 08:24:42 amcommercially speaking, the most successful chart act of the 1980s,I'd always give Koreans a pass on most things around the 80s considering until the Olympics in 1988, they didn't really have freedom of movement outside of the country. That was when Korea started to open up. The political and social climate around that time wasn't exactly global as there were military dictators. I suppose even after Roh Tae Woo (1993) western cultural and music influence was increasing but it was still limited.
1. all i'm saying is that compared to people who like other genres, kpop fans are next level. i'm 99% sure everyone agrees about this. at this point i don't even think it's debatable
2. i have literally never heard of Bobby Brown, New Edition, The Supremes, Delfonics. i only know kylie from your list
I understand they're kids and might not focus on the past, but Playstation and XBox? Come on! Contemporary Korean culture focuses on the now and many people tend to live in a tiny little bubble, which they rarely venture out of.
Quote from: oglop on October 01, 2019, 05:04:14 pm1. all i'm saying is that compared to people who like other genres, kpop fans are next level. i'm 99% sure everyone agrees about this. at this point i don't even think it's debatableSimilar but different. I say this because of your comment below-Quote2. i have literally never heard of Bobby Brown, New Edition, The Supremes, Delfonics. i only know kylie from your listYou've never heard of The Supremes? Diana frickin Ross? Okay, this is a delicate matter because it deals with generalities, but I think it's something you are unaware of: What's considered the "greatest" and "most significant" music is NOT the same for black people as white people. A lot of black people might like a couple of Beatles songs, but they aren't anywhere in the conversations for greatest musicians ever. And Nirvana? Please. And one thing a lot of black people have to deal with when it comes to music is they get questioned and often dismissed when they mention that they don't really know much about the Beatles or don't care about them or have never heard of Smashing Pumpkins or Sublime or whatever. And this isn't just black folks, but can even apply to other POC communities and even to country music fans or classical music fans.And yes, to a lot of people this gets aggravating. If you've ever worked in a mixed-race workplace setting with a stereo, the battles that ensue and the racial divide that happens highlight this divide. The whole rock-centric view has got the same kind of entitlement and ignorance as some of the worst Kpopstans. You're just blind to it because you assume your taste is normal and that they're weird, just as they assume they're the normal ones and your music is "weird". I'm not saying you need to change your tastes or anything, but if you don't even know who The Supremes are, maybe you should hold off on calling Kpop fans uninformed. And try and be aware that music is diverse.