RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0

I also notice that a lot of the music trash talking almost exclusively begins whenever a boy band is the subject. Doesn't seem to come up as often when girl groups are mentioned. 

Another example of female privilege I guess 

i saw some article the other day and the headline called BTS a boyband. everyone in the comments were going crazy about how BTS is more than just a boyband. they should be called "innovators" or some shit like that, instead of boyband. then there were comments like "well if BTS are a boyband, Nirvana should also be called a boyband". ughhh such drivel. their fans seem weirdly defensive and neurotic

BTS are a 'boyband' like 'New Kids on the Block' and crap manufactured stuff like that.  They don't play their own instruments.  They are dancers, that's it.  They're here today, and they'll be gone tomorrow, like 'One Direction'. 

Nirvana are, and always will be, innovators.   

i think, deepdown, that most kpop fans know this, which is why they get so defensive all of the time

THIS

Well thank god for that!  Please teach us poor, uneducated laymen riff raff more about music so we can enjoy it properly!

The only rule of music- If you like it, listen to it.

Why anyone takes it beyond that and starts judging people and getting all upset that people like different stuff is beyond me.

“What really matters is what you like, not what you are like”

― Nick Hornby, High Fidelity

3) We're almost at the 30th anniversary of 'Smells Like Teen Spirit'. Get over it. Time passes you by. Learn to age gracefully.
4) Also, music in the 90s does not stop and start with Nirvana. Just as music in the 60s does not stop and start with the Beatles. Sorry, but Kurt Cobain's death was not the biggest music death of the 90s. That was 2Pac. A figure far bigger and more significant than Cobain and whose genre of music still persists to this day. And Motown was bigger AND better than the Beatles+The Beach Boys+The Rolling Stones. Yeah, I said it.

I sole reason this came up was from Oglop's original post about BTL comments on BTS...  Otherwise, we wouldn't be comparing Nirvana and BTS.   

i saw some article the other day and the headline called BTS a boyband. everyone in the comments were going crazy about how BTS is more than just a boyband. they should be called "innovators" or some shit like that, instead of boyband. then there were comments like "well if BTS are a boyband, Nirvana should also be called a boyband".

People can listen to and enjoy what they want.  I have no problem with that.  It's cool.  Whatever floats your boat.  But innovative they are not.  Of course, through music history you can point to other music 'pioneers' who were influenced by others or got their raison d'etre from someone else.  That's fine.  But to label someone like BTS 'innovators'?  No.  The main innovation now is through marketing, social media and the like.  Music has developed, and is a very different beast from the 1990s.  When you have bands like Radiohead using a 'name your price' strategy like they did years ago.  That was innovative in the marketing stakes. 

My students love BTS as they're the target group, I can see that and I appreciate them enjoying it.   When they hear my music, I get the 'ohh, club music' from them.  Brill.  When I was in Turkey, with my friends in the summer, I always take a USB with music on it, and of course I get the 'this all sounds the same' comments.  Fine.  Water off a duck's back.  Years ago, me and brother went to a SKAM music night in Manchester.  In one auditorium, there was a Japanese guy on his laptop on the stage alone, and he played what I can only describe as white noise.  We sat down and listened.  After ten minutes, a beat came in.  There were plenty of people there who were 'feeling' the white noise, mind you.   

i think, deepdown, that most kpop fans know this, which is why they get so defensive all of the time

THIS

Really, you don't think it's because you went on a public forum and started trashing the kind of music they like?

As I pointed you-
"Your music is crap"
"Screw you dude"
"Why are you being so defensive?"

 

As someone who plays 3 instruments and has an ABRSM grade 7 music theory certificate...

So the whole point of your post then (because it's not even worth your time and it bores you) is to tell everyone that you play three instruments and have a music theory certificate 

I clearly stated that trashing BTS would be a waste of time so that I could open up into a more meaningful discussion about musical taste. If the subject of the conversation is around BTS and why they're bad, to me at least, it seems perfectly reasonable to approach the discussion from an actual musical argument, rather than sour old-man feelings. 
Is your ego that delicate that you're so threatened by somebody who knows more than you in a particular area?

Since you're a layman on music, you're not going to understand or appreciate harmonic or melodic analysis and that's fine, you can still enjoy music. 

Well thank god for that!  Please teach us poor, uneducated laymen riff raff more about music so we can enjoy it properly!

I get the impression that you really don't read what I write before answering. Music can be appreciated on different levels, some of those levels require a certain understanding of how it works.
Music is simply what I spent my time studying. Other folks spent their time learning things I wouldn't have the first clue about and I'd listen if they had something to say. I hate to disappoint you, but upstaging you was really not the motivation for me to work my ass off through years of study and practice. I did it because I like music and wanted to appreciate it on a deeper level.

I really can't help you with your insecurities.

... can be appreciated on different levels, some of those levels require a certain understanding of how it works.

very true. pro-level reaver/shuttle micro looks relatively easy if you don't know what it takes to make it happen

Some points-
1) Rock is not the center of the modern music universe. What I've noticed is the people most annoyed with Kpop are invariably strong rock/country listeners. People who are into EDM/Top 40/Rap/or most of all- A broad variety of music (virtually any music genre) are far less likely to be bothered by it.
2) Related to the first, if you're going to go down the "their fans are awful and have issues" route, do the rock fans bashing on Kpop really want to go down that route?
3) We're almost at the 30th anniversary of 'Smells Like Teen Spirit'. Get over it. Time passes you by. Learn to age gracefully.
4) Also, music in the 90s does not stop and start with Nirvana. Just as music in the 60s does not stop and start with the Beatles. Sorry, but Kurt Cobain's death was not the biggest music death of the 90s. That was 2Pac. A figure far bigger and more significant than Cobain and whose genre of music still persists to this day. And Motown was bigger AND better than the Beatles+The Beach Boys+The Rolling Stones. Yeah, I said it.
5) People listen to music for different reasons. Also, not everyone likes the cacophony of guitars and angry frustrated yelling. Some people like vocals and I dunno, songs that aren't full of anger and frustration. Maybe something mildly happy.
6) Kpop is lip-synced during the live performance for dance songs. That's because they're also dancing. During ballads, they sing live. Also, no one seems upset when performers in other genres sing but don't play instruments. Or even when their favorite rock band has a lead vocalist who doesn't play an instrument.
7) As far as defensiveness and insecurity, this is like the umpteenth rant about how Kpop sucks. How many threads/posts have Kpop fans started about how other music sucks? Who is being defensive and insecure here?

"I think your music is crap"
"I disagree+reasons"
"You're being insecure and defensive because you don't agree with me that the music you like is crap."
 

1. i mentioned nirvana once. actually, i was just quoting someone else (i don't even really like nirvana)
2. what's wrong with rock music fans? seriously. did i miss something?
3. yeah sure. but the fact people still listen to it 30 years later must mean something. i'd be surprised if any current kpop song is listened to 30 years from now
4. was just an example (and i don't even like nirvana, as i said)
5. yep
6. do western pop artists ever lip sync while dancing? not sure they would get away with it (i swear i've just "scandals" in the past of artists being accused of it. so i guess it's not acceptable generally?)
7. kpop is....whatever. people can like what they want. but the fans are often insane. that's my only point. i wouldn't be upset if someone said my favourite band sucked. but getting defensive over (wrongly) perceived slights? ughhh

as for 6...

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=who+lip+syncs

https://www.thetalko.com/12-celebrities-who-admitted-to-lip-syncing/

i didn't really give enough of a shit to google it, but the fact that these lists exist and it's considered a "scandal" makes me believe that's it's the exception, not the norm (unlike kpop)

i didn't really give enough of a shit to google it, but the fact that these lists exist and it's considered a "scandal" makes me believe that's it's the exception, not the norm (unlike kpop)

i think its only a scandal because the expectations are different (especially for some of the singers on that list who don't really dance). i don't think anyone would suggest that k-pop idols (or anyone else) should be able to dance and sing at the same time. you might argue that they shouldn't be dancing at all (or that they should be dancing less), but that's a different argument.

I saw a Kpop band recently, at some outdoor festival in central Seoul. It was boy band called Ceviche or something like that. They came on stage to mild applause and each of the 7 members had identical dyed platinum blonde bowl cuts. It's a high impact look, for sure. Anyway, they did lots of dances and what not. Most of the members were wearing tight pants with puffy button up shirts, but one member, I guess he was the bad boy, had an NBA, Minnesota Timber wolves jersey on. Overall, they weren't very good. 4/10

I agree that having a knowledge of music theory can increase a person's enjoyment when listening to music, especially if the music is complex or interesting. What I don't quite get, though, is how some people seem to think that understanding music theory somehow means they can no longer appreciate music that isn't complex. I gained a whole new appreciation for jazz when I picked up some jazz theory so I could sit in on bass with a local jazz band, but I didn't suddenly lose my ability to enjoy listening to the Ramones.

I totally get why people complain about K-Pop, as a person who dislikes most of what I've heard of it, but I don't think "It's too simplistic for people who actually understand music" is a particularly convincing argument against it.

i didn't really give enough of a shit to google it, but the fact that these lists exist and it's considered a "scandal" makes me believe that's it's the exception, not the norm (unlike kpop)

i think its only a scandal because the expectations are different (especially for some of the singers on that list who don't really dance). i don't think anyone would suggest that k-pop idols (or anyone else) should be able to dance and sing at the same time. you might argue that they shouldn't be dancing at all (or that they should be dancing less), but that's a different argument.

maybe that's why the songs are so unmemorable? half it kpop is the performance and dancing, rather than just about the music. i dunno

i didn't really give enough of a shit to google it, but the fact that these lists exist and it's considered a "scandal" makes me believe that's it's the exception, not the norm (unlike kpop)

i think its only a scandal because the expectations are different (especially for some of the singers on that list who don't really dance). i don't think anyone would suggest that k-pop idols (or anyone else) should be able to dance and sing at the same time. you might argue that they shouldn't be dancing at all (or that they should be dancing less), but that's a different argument.

maybe that's why the songs are so unmemorable? half it kpop is the performance and dancing, rather than just about the music. i dunno

i think that's fair. there's definitely some middle ground between the average BTS fan who says "they're the best musicians to ever live" and the average ""music appreciator"" who says "BTS is a bunch of talentless phonies"

2. what's wrong with rock music fans? seriously. did i miss something?

What's wrong with Kpop fans? I think in both cases nothing is wrong. But if you're going to belittle one group, then turnabout is fair play and there is a lot that can be said about people getting into their mid-late 30 or are in their 50s and 60s and are stuck in 1993 or 1970 listening to the same old stuff and getting upset that kids are listening to something different and getting butthurt that people don't like their band or don't care about their music. If there's ever a group of music fans that is the mirror image of Kpopstans, its rock fans. Not everyone has put rock at the center of their musical existence for the past 60 years, but some rock fans act like it should be.

yeah sure. but the fact people still listen to it 30 years later must mean something. i'd be surprised if any current kpop song is listened to 30 years from now

Why? People still listen to Bobby Brown, New Edition, Kylie Minogue, etc. etc. 30 years later. People still listen to The Supremes and the Delfonics. People still listen to Disco. As for actual old Kpop, people still listen to stuff from back in the day. If something still gets airplay 10 years later, it's probably going to get airplay 30 years later.

Just because YOU don't like it, doesn't mean it will be forgotten.

do western pop artists ever lip sync while dancing? not sure they would get away with it (i swear i've just "scandals" in the past of artists being accused of it. so i guess it's not acceptable generally?)

Depends on how much they're dancing. If you're doing any kind of dance that would require heavy activity and respiration while performing it, you're going to lipsync.

but the fans are often insane. that's my only point. i wouldn't be upset if someone said my favourite band sucked. but getting defensive over (wrongly) perceived slights? ughhh

Like I said, I think rock fans are some of the most insecure music fans out there. As I've said- How many threads do Kpop fans go on and tell other people their music sucks? Zero. How many threads do rock fans go on and tell kpop fans their music sucks? A ton." That's like, the definition of insecure. It's the rock fans who blow a gasket when you don't agree that "Insert Rock Band X" was the greatest of all time or the greatest of the decade.
 Heck, 30 years ago rock fans blew up a bunch of disco records and started a riot because of that insecurity. It's kind of similar to what you're seeing here with their Kpop hatred. "OMG, these people of different backgrounds are coming in and making this music that's taking the spotlight off of us and casting it somewhere else, and even worse, instead of being moody and anger filled, they are happy and bubbly. We need to trash it!"

Or how about the shock that you don't know/care about some "legendary" rock band?
"You don't know who Green Day is?!?!?!?!?!"
"No, do you know who Patti LaBelle is?"

In some ways rock fans come across as culturally isolated as Kpopstans.

... can be appreciated on different levels, some of those levels require a certain understanding of how it works.

very true. pro-level reaver/shuttle micro looks relatively easy if you don't know what it takes to make it happen

NERD!!!!!!!

(Wait, I think I just outed myself as a nerd for getting that reference)

I did it because I like music and wanted to appreciate it on a deeper level.

Music is an art and with art 50% is emotional and subjective and expressive. It can't be quantified or analyzed and can only be vaguely theorized.

Some songs are remarkably simple in composition and structure, but they became "great works" through the emoting of the performer or the significance of their lyrics as emotional expression. Likewise, a piece can be technically brilliant but still utter dreck because it doesn't do anything. It has nothing to say. Also, as I've repeatedly said, with music, film, art, etc. A good 50% of viewers/listeners, do so to experience the emotions of the character/artist. They rate the work on how powerful or fulfilling that emotional experience was. Not on the technical aspect of its composition.

I don't really get BTS, but they're obviously speaking something to some people. I think before we totally trash it, maybe we should listen and understand why the people who like it, like it.

That's like, the definition of insecure.

The definition of insecure is to keep on posting on a thread about music and about how you're right and we're all wrong. 

 

Music is an art and with art 50% is emotional and subjective and expressive. It can't be quantified or analyzed and can only be vaguely theorized.

Are you saying music as a whole can't be quantified or analyzed, or that the part of music that is subjective can't be? If the latter, I'm with you. If the former... not so much.

Music can absolutely by quantified or analyzed, which is really all music theory comes down to. Much like linguistics, music theory is descriptive, not prescriptive. Even simple songs can be broken down and described using music theory. Doing so won't tell anyone whether or not a song is "good," obviously, it will just tell them whether or not it conforms to the "rules" of a particular style of music (which often differ wildly, eg. jazz vs polka, or baroque vs mumble rap).

That's not saying that songs that don't conform to standard Western musical practice are "bad" or "wrong," of course, much like African American English isn't "wrong" just because it doesn't follow the same grammatical rules as Standard English.