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  • oglop
  • The Legend

    • 4420

    • August 25, 2011, 07:24:54 pm
    • Seoul
Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10140 on: August 10, 2019, 07:28:26 pm »
can't be arsed to use quotes so i'll just use numbers

1. that's not what i'm saying. it's just a silly regulation. that's literally my whole point

2. it was fine for the first 2 years i worked at public school as i had after-school classes. they got cut in the last year i worked there, and then i realise how awful desk warming was

3. in that case, most schools exercise desk warming poorly, or they'd be no complaints. well, actually, that would mean the concept of desk warming wouldn't even exist (by definition it's sitting at your desk doing nothing, right?). if you were sitting at a desk, not teaching but doing work, it would just be called "working"

4. 2.2m for an 8 hour day is still low. 2.2m for a 6 hour day is much more "reasonable". wages haven't increased for 15 years, plus bonuses/benefits have since been cut from the contracts. just saying it might be a good idea going forward. if the MOEs aren't gonna increase wages, why not reduce hours instead? seems like something they should consider

5. being able to plan effectively and quickly doesn't mean you have a poor work ethic. you could spend 5 hours on a single lesson plan and it could still be terrible. or you could spend 5 minutes on a lesson and it could be a huge success. time spent on planning =/= good teaching/good lessons. one of the first things they teach you on your CELTA course is "work smarter, not harder"

6. that's why i found another job. that's something like 960 fewer hours every year needlessly sitting at a desk (while earning more money)   8)
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 08:28:36 pm by oglop »


Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10141 on: August 11, 2019, 06:33:54 am »
For some ridiculous reason I don't understand, the principal at my main elementary school has shortened the summer holidays. This school ended classes around the same time  as all the other elementary schools and starts classes 2 weeks before any other elementary school in the city, everyone goes back to school on Wednesday.

Seriously, f*ck that guy. 


  • HappyPlanetAbuser
  • Super Waygook

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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10142 on: August 11, 2019, 06:40:50 am »
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there are 4 billion people who would literally give their right kidney to have such a job.

Then let them teach for an entire year.
Oh, I forgot...Koreans only want blonde female American to teach.


I agree wholeheartedly with oglop that no school nor principal should ever dare to instruct me on how to manage my afternoons or free periods  between classes. I'd probably sue them. First bury your teachers under a huge workload and then also tell them to stay at school? How about I quit and the school needs to find a replacement? You can tell that expensive sub (110 euros p/hour) to stay at school while I'll collect my job seekers allowance!
At home!
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  • HappyPlanetAbuser
  • Super Waygook

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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10143 on: August 11, 2019, 06:48:55 am »
.  everyone goes back to school on Wednesday.

That sucks, but surely  you will get them back one way or another, perhaps 3  weeks of Christmas holiday and cheer or... 2 months of Summer recess?
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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10144 on: August 11, 2019, 04:59:23 pm »
1. that's not what i'm saying. it's just a silly regulation. that's literally my whole point
But it's NOT a silly regulation. Again, you are not looking at it through the perspective of someone who has to implement and maintain a working system that is fair and subject to regulation. There's lots of rules that are "dumb" from an individual perspective, but when you think about things systemically, they make sense.

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and then i realise how awful desk warming was
If your definition of "awful" is getting paid good money to just watch movies, you have no clue what awful is, and it shows what a privileged, sheltered life you've lived.

I might call desk-warming tedious or somewhat lame. But awful to the point of complaining about getting paid money to watch movies? Seriously?

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that would mean the concept of desk warming wouldn't even exist (by definition it's sitting at your desk doing nothing, right?). if you were sitting at a desk, not teaching but doing work, it would just be called "working"
You couldn't update your PPTs? Find some new materials? Sort the books in the English library? Open the English library and read stories?

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2.2m for an 8 hour day is still low. 2.2m for a 6 hour day is much more "reasonable".
Reasonable is what the market is and what you're willing to sign for.

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wages haven't increased for 15 years, plus bonuses/benefits have since been cut from the contracts. just saying it might be a good idea going forward. if the MOEs aren't gonna increase wages, why not reduce hours instead? seems like something they should consider
Again, you are only looking at things from the perspective of you or the worker. . At higher levels your focus isn't just Native English Teachers. It's the entire educational system with 20 different areas all competing for money and YOU competing with the police, health care, the military, infrastructure and transportation, social security, etc. for money. You can't just print money on your own and give more money to teachers and schools.

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being able to plan effectively and quickly doesn't mean you have a poor work ethic. you could spend 5 hours on a single lesson plan and it could still be terrible. or you could spend 5 minutes on a lesson and it could be a huge success. time spent on planning =/= good teaching/good lessons. one of the first things they teach you on your CELTA course is "work smarter, not harder"
The number of people who are working less and telling themselves they are working smarter vs. the number of people actually working smarter is wildly disproportionate. You might actually be working smarter, but the odds are against it. Again, this is something that being a manager will teach you. That the bullshit employees believe about themselves is often not true.

For starters, it's highly improbable that every time you create your lesson you have achieved perfection. Now you may have a great, smart system for consistently creating 94% effective lessons, thereby allowing you to function efficiently during the school year. Desk-warming is the perfect time to go back and increase their effectiveness to 97% or higher. In this case, efficiency and balancing time is not so much of an issue. You can be "inefficient" and spend more time to increase effectiveness by small amounts.

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that's why i found another job. that's something like 960 fewer hours every year needlessly sitting at a desk (while earning more money) 

I support this. Go and do what's best for you and if the contract is more beneficial, do that.


Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10145 on: August 11, 2019, 05:00:56 pm »
For some ridiculous reason I don't understand, the principal at my main elementary school has shortened the summer holidays. This school ended classes around the same time  as all the other elementary schools and starts classes 2 weeks before any other elementary school in the city, everyone goes back to school on Wednesday.

Seriously, f*ck that guy.
Aren't the teachers upset? I mean, wouldn't this violate the CBA the school system has with the teacher's union? Surely there has to be more to this.


Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10146 on: August 11, 2019, 05:08:03 pm »
Then let them teach for an entire year.

Oh, I forgot...Koreans only want blonde female American to teach.
Or Filipinos for 1/2-2/3rds the cost.

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I agree wholeheartedly with oglop that no school nor principal should ever dare to instruct me on how to manage my afternoons or free periods  between classes.
Seriously, the level of ego behind that statement is mind-boggling. Dude, you aren't the boss. You signed the contract, you agreed to be hired under someone, function within the system.

Of course if you were ever in charge (and judging from the attitude, you've never been in charge of anything of any significance), you'd soon realize that yes, employees are subject to oversight and directives from management, because employees left to their own devices, can start to significantly decline in performance.

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How about I quit and the school needs to find a replacement? You can tell that expensive sub (110 euros p/hour) to stay at school while I'll collect my job seekers allowance!
At home!
Or fire you for cause. Or even worse, see if you actually do leave work unauthorized or have signed anything falsely, and then throw the book at you.


  • oglop
  • The Legend

    • 4420

    • August 25, 2011, 07:24:54 pm
    • Seoul
Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10147 on: August 11, 2019, 06:10:34 pm »
1. do other countries require their teachers to sit doing nothing for 4 hours a day?

2. if i finish my duties, why am i still there? anyway, just because other people have worse jobs around the world, it doesn't make desk warming less rubbish. you could apply this to anything, ever:

"this lunch isn't good"
"are you kidding? so many people around the world don't even GET to eat lunch"

"i'm tired"
"well, at least you slept in a bed. many people don't even own beds!"

"these working conditions aren't great"
"what about people who don't have a job? or people who have to work 16 hour days"

3. yes. none of those things take 20 hours a week

4. that's true.

5. eh, just saying if they don't want to increase wages, reduce the pointless desk warming hours. was just an idea off the top of my head

6. eh, whatever. i got a Pass A on my CELTA and always received good feedback from open classes. i'd argue there's such a thing as over-planning, anyway. besides, after teaching the present perfect for the 100th time, you really don't need to plan much, as you generally know what works and doesn't work, and what the best activities to use are

7. it's a shame there aren't regular training days during desk warming hours. going to watch another person teach, getting some ideas for activities, or being taught some teaching methodology. those are the things that would have helped me most when i started teaching, and would have made me a better teacher.


  • HappyPlanetAbuser
  • Super Waygook

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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10148 on: August 12, 2019, 07:23:38 am »
Seriously, the level of ego behind that statement is mind-boggling. Dude, you aren't the boss. You signed the contract, you agreed to be hired under someone, function within the system.

1) My point is that you guys are sorely mistreated and exploited. The contracts I see here are absolutely revoltingly abusive. If that makes my ego seem extraordinarily bloated to you, perhaps yours has been beaten down to a pulp so much that you are willing to defend such institutionalised abuse.

2) I have several positions within my school, among one of them is trainer. You misunderstand or are completely ignorant of how a school is run in the west. We as a team fulfil all positions, also the managerial ones. Most teachers, except for starting ones, are in charge of a team like mine or a specific orthopedagogical project. Being in charge of a team is nothing to relish, one does it as an 'extra' because one is asked to do so and quite often people run themselves into a burnout and then revert back to teaching responsibilities, letting others take over the extra workload of managing a team. 

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employees left to their own devices, can start to significantly decline in performance.
Do you know that you always arrive at the same talking point? Namely, that people are sinners and ought to be punished severely, lest the rule of law and people's authority is challenged by this or that ominous group.  But this time we are not talking about uncontrollable hapless teenagers with cell phones, this time we are talking about us, TEACHERS. Do you really believe we are not to be trusted because if it were left up to us we would party like it's 1999? At all the schools I have worked at, managing teachers in the way you hint at, does not exist, perhaps only in Asia. And it had better, because if anyone would ever act as you described we would have a month-long nationwide strike. You simply do not treat teachers with such mistrust. We are teachers for crying out loud, how would you envision the Education dept. instructing us to sit randomly at a desk because we are 'getting paid' for it? How about the 30-odd extra unpaid hours per week we end up spending preparing lessons and representing the school in all our communications with people? I think the minister would even lose his job if he were ever to tell us teachers to deskwarm needlessly. How on earth would you be able to retain your staff?

What you perhaps do not get is that the primary role of a manager is to help and assist the team. Not to tell colleagues how to do their work, because we all believe and trust each other that we will always strive to get the best results for our students.

Now coming full circle here: Marty, if you love people and trust them, they will return that favour. Treat them with mistrust and punishment and they will not listen to a word you might have to say. You work at a school and you are a teacher, get with the programme, mate, this certainly can't be your first year as a teacher so clearly you must have seen this, too. We should always make that first step in trusting students and helping them. Trying to exert control over people with punishment is counter-productive and quite frankly, shows a limited range of negotiation skills.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 07:44:25 am by HappyPlanetAbuser »
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  • HappyPlanetAbuser
  • Super Waygook

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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10149 on: August 12, 2019, 07:33:48 am »
@echo off
Print "x"

x= Why am I wasting time writing a op-ed piece to marty in the ranting thread at 1 am!!! 

/end rant
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  • JVPrice
  • Expert Waygook

    • 826

    • August 29, 2017, 10:26:13 am
    • Tampa, FL
Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10150 on: August 12, 2019, 07:38:33 am »
Desk warming is pointless. You aren't working, nobody's supervising you to get anything done, you're just existing in a space because some people complained about not being able to go home when others were able to. Making everyone have to stay is kinda dumb considering that, unless you have camp, you're literally doing nothing.

There are better ways to spend time.

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The point is that it maintains order, discipline, fairness, accountability, responsibility, and equal treatment.

Discipline for what? You're not being supervised.

Fairness for what? It's only fair because EVERYONE has to do it.

Accountability for what? There's literally nothing to be responsible for.


If anything you could argue it makes people LESS responsible when left to their own devices without supervision. But hey, it's a part of the contract, so...
The World Ends With You


Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10151 on: August 12, 2019, 09:42:11 am »
The point is that it maintains order, discipline, fairness, accountability, responsibility, and equal treatment.
On a somewhat related note, Tino.

You should remember that many of the NETs here aren't actually on holiday. They're desperately trying to save. pay of loans, make a living and do their job well.
I don't know who you're trying to impress, but when you constantly sh*t on NETs for being lazy, entitled or whatever, it really doesn't make you sound humble, honest or virtuous. You think showing that you're not afraid to put the nature of your livelihood down makes you an objective person?
Nobody is impressed.

Insufferable as usual, and he forgets that this is a 'Ranting/Venting' thread where people should be allowed to do just that without some 12-year old  teacher's pet coming in and writing pages and pages of smarmy nonsense hoping to get a pat on the head from the teacher.  If he wants to 'lord' over others (who have way more professional and work experience than him) for not liking desk-warming, then I suggest he makes a separate thread to do that and leave this thread to serve its purpose.  Maybe the heat and humidity is getting to him this summer. 


Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10152 on: August 12, 2019, 12:32:10 pm »
1. do other countries require their teachers to sit doing nothing for 4 hours a day?
Other countries require their teachers to work a specified number of hours and specified number of days per year. As I showed in the link, South Korea overall requires their teachers to work far fewer hours than many other countries.

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, it doesn't make desk warming less rubbish.
But desk warming isn't rubbish. You are getting paid money to do nothing. If anything the rubbish part is you getting paid. In reality you should be dismissed during those periods without pay. And if that's fine with you, great. Maybe you'd rather have the free time. But I'm pretty sure there are other people who would rather take the money and just watch Netflix for a few hours.

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eh, just saying if they don't want to increase wages, reduce the pointless desk warming hours. was just an idea off the top of my head
What incentive are you offering as an employee, either individually or as a collective?

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it's a shame there aren't regular training days during desk warming hours. going to watch another person teach, getting some ideas for activities, or being taught some teaching methodology. those are the things that would have helped me most when i started teaching, and would have made me a better teacher
That's a good idea. I do agree that desk-warming is poorly executed.


Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10153 on: August 12, 2019, 12:54:11 pm »
1) My point is that you guys are sorely mistreated and exploited. The contracts I see here are absolutely revoltingly abusive. If that makes my ego seem extraordinarily bloated to you, perhaps yours has been beaten down to a pulp so much that you are willing to defend such institutionalised abuse.
Lol. You get paid a decent wage and are provided housing. Wage enough that you can afford to vacation twice a year.

Institutionalized abuse? You don't even know what abuse is. Just the latest example of stuff that would have been a 2 on the trauma scale 75 years ago is now a 10 for some.

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You misunderstand or are completely ignorant of how a school is run in the west.

My mother was a state-certified public school teacher for 30+ years. She was at her desk even when classes had finished and at times during the summer. Now, I don't know whether that was because she chose to balance her time a certain way or whether she was obligated. I was 8 and more concerned about playing Oregon Trail on the school computers than the nuances of teacher working duties, but yes, things like specified hours and days are part of the collective bargaining agreement.

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Namely, that people are sinners and ought to be punished severely, lest the rule of law and people's authority is challenged by this or that ominous group.  But this time we are not talking about uncontrollable hapless teenagers with cell phones, this time we are talking about us, TEACHERS. Do you really believe we are not to be trusted because if it were left up to us we would party like it's 1999?
Is it your assertion that EVERY teacher would not engage in inappropriate or potentially illegal conduct if things were left entirely up to them?

The majority would not. However, rules and laws don't exist because of the majority (in some cases, speeding for example, shows that everyone breaks the law and cannot be trusted), they exist because of a minority.  And if they go unpunished, that minority can become a majority quite rapidly.

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You simply do not treat teachers with such mistrust. We are teachers for crying out loud, how would you envision the Education dept. instructing us to sit randomly at a desk because we are 'getting paid' for it?
Time sheet. You sign in, you sign out. You work a specified number of hours per year and a specified number of days. How you choose to distribute those is up to you. However, for contracted teachers that are not tenured and part of the teacher's union, you might specify things differently with a different contract.

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What you perhaps do not get is that the primary role of a manager is to help and assist the team. Not to tell colleagues how to do their work
It's both. If you believe employees, even new ones, need zero instruction or correction, then you're incredibly naive.

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Now coming full circle here: Marty, if you love people and trust them, they will return that favour.
You can't be serious. What a privileged existence you must have led to think that. There are people out there who do not give a f. They will take and steal from you without a second thought. You show them love and trust and all they see is weakness and opportunity.

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We should always make that first step in trusting students and helping them. Trying to exert control over people with punishment is counter-productive and quite frankly, shows a limited range of negotiation skills.
Have you ever had to fire an employee for theft? I have. Multiple times. One time for stealing, not from the store, but from another employee who showed trust to other employees by leaving some of his CD collection at the store for employees to use on the store radio.

Not only did I have to fire him, but because we didn't have any direct evidence, I had to manipulate him into confessing, which he did, therefore providing us with a record and cause to terminate him immediately.

So no, this idea that employees and workers can always be trusted and just show them love is utter nonsense. Sure it can work with the right people in the right situation, but that is situation-specific, not systemic. For an entire system, you need oversight and regulation.

Also, you seem to ignore the fact that you are dealing with taxpayer money and government appropriations. People will inspect and audit things and look for ways to cut the budget or transfer money elsewhere. Having zero record of employee's working hours and little oversight would draw auditors to an institution like meat to maggots.


  • oglop
  • The Legend

    • 4420

    • August 25, 2011, 07:24:54 pm
    • Seoul
Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10154 on: August 12, 2019, 01:01:23 pm »
1. yeah, and when they're done with their duties, they can go home. and i bet they don't have to come into school when their aren't any classes (or students) and sit all day

2. you're getting paid to teach. silly to make someone stay if they have done everything required of them. especially during vacation periods

3. again, it was just an idea. i know hagwons sometimes offer this instead of giving a pay rise


Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10155 on: August 12, 2019, 01:03:18 pm »
Desk warming is pointless. You aren't working, nobody's supervising you to get anything done, you're just existing in a space because some people complained about not being able to go home when others were able to. Making everyone have to stay is kinda dumb considering that, unless you have camp, you're literally doing nothing.
No, you choose to do nothing. You could be doing something, you just choose not to. I agree it's dumb to pay you money to do it.

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Discipline for what? You're not being supervised.

Fairness for what? It's only fair because EVERYONE has to do it.

Accountability for what? There's literally nothing to be responsible for.
Organizational discipline. Systemic fairness. Organizational accountability. Again, you're only looking at this through your own narrow, selfish perspective.  You are not thinking of this systemically and from the standpoint of management and oversight.

How would you handle this? What's your alternative system? Let you go home whenever you want, even though you are under contract to work those hours? Restructure the contracts to hourly pay or pay by the class? Those are all reasonable alternatives and might prevent desk-warming, but they also could have unintended consequences, like reduced pay. Obviously you need contracts that specify hours and working days.

It's staggering how much you fail to consider how all of this looks to accountants, auditors, consultants, and other people who look for workplace inefficiencies and ways to trim money. You see "The school is keeping me at work, when they should be letting me go and play. I'm just sitting here wasting my time." They see "This person is getting paid to do nothing. Either we don't need to pay him or we don't need this person. Let's take a closer look during the next round of budgeting."

Raising a stink about deskwarming and getting paid to do nothing is something only the foolishly naive would do.

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But hey, it's a part of the contract, so...
Exactly. You signed it, live up to it. You want that contract to work for you when it benefits you, well then you have to follow it even when it's irritating.


Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10156 on: August 12, 2019, 01:12:28 pm »
1. yeah, and when they're done with their duties, they can go home. and i bet they don't have to come into school when their aren't any classes (or students) and sit all day
As I said, my mom was a public school teacher and she (and other teachers) were definitely at the school during the summer even when there were no students. Now, as I said, I don't know why this was. Some of it was obviously mandated days, but also I think some of it was just her way of pacing out the workload and getting stuff done, and whatnot, so I don't know what was her choice and what was the school's.  Heck, I'm pretty sure some of it was just her taking advantage of the free A/C and higher-speed internet and watering her plants.

So I agree that there can certainly be some flexibility for tenured teachers, but there will still be some minimum number of working hours and days, because you simply need that specified in order to have a workable contract in order to collectively bargain.

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you're getting paid to teach. silly to make someone stay if they have done everything required of them. especially during vacation periods

You're also getting paid to prepare content. You might also be getting paid to "facilitate English education" or whatever, which could mean having the English library open for student access, which in turn requires student supervision.

If I was in charge, I'd be sure to have that English library open and air conditioned as a welcome place for students to relax during summer classes. It was at my school and the books actually got some use out of them instead of just gathering dust. Now granted, the kids gravitated to either easy picture books or English-language Slam Dunk, One Piece, and Naruto, but hey, at least it's exposure.

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again, it was just an idea. i know hagwons sometimes offer this instead of giving a pay rise
Hey, I'm all for whatever people choose to negotiate. Me personally, I'd take the money for doing nothing. On the other hand, if you have substantial savings or simply are fine with having reduced pay and more free time, more power to you.


  • oglop
  • The Legend

    • 4420

    • August 25, 2011, 07:24:54 pm
    • Seoul
Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10157 on: August 12, 2019, 01:25:48 pm »
1. that's great if you actually have stuff to do. i wasn't allowed to turn the A/C or heater on during vacation desk warming periods - as it was a "waste of electricity" because i was only there by myself. nothing says "we do not respect you" quite like that

2. i'm pretty sure NETs are considered more of a headache than a commodity at most elementary schools. a lot of of complaints on here about their public school jobs is that they're under-utilised


  • Mister Tim
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1773

    • September 08, 2013, 10:33:54 am
    • SK
Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10158 on: August 12, 2019, 01:47:02 pm »
Cheese and f*cking Rice, you guys, start a thread.


  • HappyPlanetAbuser
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Re: RANTING/VENTING MEGATHREAD 3.0
« Reply #10159 on: August 12, 2019, 05:21:39 pm »
I only have 1 week left of 'real' doing-nothing-all-day summer break.  :sad:
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