Teaching EFL in China: Pros and Cons

Sure, from what I've heard wages are higher, but the cost of living isn't as cheap as people think, using a VPN for absolutely everything is a major hassle (they don't always work), the risk is definitely higher for getting screwed over (and since you're a foreigner you'll get laughed out of court) and then there's the moral argument.

Yeah, China's a big gamble these days, I wouldn't recommend anyone chance it.

Korea won't have a problem since they're not exactly looking for Princeton grads with 10yrs experience. If you've got a pulse and a degree you're good to go. Korea is also an attractive option for hordes of 22yr old Koreaboos dumb and desperate enough to work for 1.8mil as long as they're in the country.

I hope I never have to set foot in China until the CCP is a thing of the past. I wouldn't work there no matter how much they paid.

I hope I never have to set foot in China until the CCP is a thing of the past. I wouldn't work there no matter how much they paid.

I had a great time, met amazing people, made some awesome friends and generally had a good time in China, BUT it was completely ruined by the CCP and I am not even talking about the concentration camps, organ harvesting etc, etc, they made my life so uncomfortable as a foreigner. I hated being watched 24/7 and wondering when I was going to be busted by the police for inadvertently doing or saying something which would 'upset' social harmony, which is their latest excuse to imprison you, murder you or harvest your organs.

So, I would agree with you, though I would love to visit my friends again, I will not do it as long as the CCP is around.

I would love to teach in China.  Food is amazing and the country
is skyrocketing on the way up.  I would teach in the south somewhere.
No winters and nice weather. Close to other S.E. Asian countries.
The CCP doesn't bother me at all. Compare it to the incompetent
super elite demagogues that rule the west and there isn't much to
choose between them.

I thought you ran your own study room, could you do that in China?

But how would your Korean wife and daughters feel about living there? Slow Internet. Instagram is blocked. 

But how would your Korean wife and daughters feel about living there? Slow Internet. Instagram is blocked. 

I thought you ran your own study room, could you do that in China?

I said I would love to. I didn't say I could.

Sure, from what I've heard wages are higher, but the cost of living isn't as cheap as people think, using a VPN for absolutely everything is a major hassle (they don't always work), the risk is definitely higher for getting screwed over (and since you're a foreigner you'll get laughed out of court) and then there's the moral argument.

Yeah, China's a big gamble these days, I wouldn't recommend anyone chance it.

Korea won't have a problem since they're not exactly looking for Princeton grads with 10yrs experience. If you've got a pulse and a degree you're good to go. Korea is also an attractive option for hordes of 22yr old Koreaboos dumb and desperate enough to work for 1.8mil as long as they're in the country.

How many are Koreaboos though?  I can't imagine loving BTS or superjunior is enough incentive to come over and be broke for too long.  Maybe some newbies are tricked the first year though.  I am not ready to jump ship just yet.  But as living costs rise, how can China, Vietnam, or where ever not start pulling more and more teachers unless Korea starts finally upping their wages?  Of course some employers here are and do get it.  The point is, Korea is not the only gig in town anymore.

The CCP doesn't bother me at all. Compare it to the incompetent
super elite demagogues that rule the west and there isn't much to
choose between them.

Pretty sure the super elite aren't putting 2 million Uyghurs in concentration camps, harvesting their own country's peoples organs and murdering 'dissidents'. I guess the CCP wouldn't bother me too if I didn't have a conscience.

The CCP doesn't bother me at all. Compare it to the incompetent
super elite demagogues that rule the west and there isn't much to
choose between them.

Pretty sure the super elite aren't putting 2 million Uyghurs in concentration camps, harvesting their own country's peoples organs and murdering 'dissidents'. I guess the CCP wouldn't bother me too if I didn't have a conscience.

We don't always agree, but I'm 100% with you on this.

How many are Koreaboos though?  I can't imagine loving BTS or superjunior is enough incentive to come over and be broke for too long.  Maybe some newbies are tricked the first year though.  I am not ready to jump ship just yet.  But as living costs rise, how can China, Vietnam, or where ever not start pulling more and more teachers unless Korea starts finally upping their wages?  Of course some employers here are and do get it.  The point is, Korea is not the only gig in town anymore.

I think Superjunior would be breaking the trade description act if they were still around. Unless they're one of those bands that keeps changing the members.

I checked online. Super Junior is still around. Nine active members now.

How many are Koreaboos though?  I can't imagine loving BTS or superjunior is enough incentive to come over and be broke for too long.  Maybe some newbies are tricked the first year though.  I am not ready to jump ship just yet.  But as living costs rise, how can China, Vietnam, or where ever not start pulling more and more teachers unless Korea starts finally upping their wages?  Of course some employers here are and do get it.  The point is, Korea is not the only gig in town anymore.

When you're 21-21, single, fresh out of university and this is your first real job, 2.2mil + housing in a foreign country is quite appealing. Korea and the glitzy K-pop scene has a strong appeal to the younger female crowd.

Vietnam has more hustle potential and cheaper cost of living, but again, V-pop isn't a thing, it's appealing to a different crowd, I'd say an older crowd or a more adventure seeking younger crowd.

China's human rights atrocities are a lot more talked about these days and it has ZERO 'cool' factor.   

Korea wont be in trouble for a while. Even if youngsters are staying for a year or two before heading home or somewhere else, there'll always be another fresh uni grad to take their place. Korea doesn't demand a lot from a teacher either.

What I see happening in the next 10-15yrs is Korea growing up. There's going to be an increase in demand for more experienced and qualified teachers. It's already happening, at my MOEs last meeting (between Korean teachers) the word through the grapevine was that the Korean teachers were arguing over who gets the more experienced NETs as they were tired of dealing with inexperienced noobs (this might be your typical blame shifting, but that's apparently what was said).

The demand for experienced teachers will increase and I'm guessing that's going to eventually lead to higher pay levels. Experienced teachers will be sent to places like Seoul and Busan will the fresh grads will be sent to the sticks. I also foresee more positions opening up for NE speakers at education offices, though fluency in Korean will probably be a requirement.

The birth-rate will continue to decline and hopefully that leads to shutting down these money pits/tiny schools with 20 students. This will enrage VPs and principals at these schools (teachers will simply be moved to the bigger schools) and these VPs and principals will have to be placated with some BS "consulting" job at the education office. VP and principal positions will then become more competitive.

The birth-rate will continue to decline and hopefully that leads to shutting down these money pits/tiny schools with 20 students. This will enrage VPs and principals at these schools (teachers will simply be moved to the bigger schools) and these VPs and principals will have to be placated with some BS "consulting" job at the education office. VP and principal positions will then become more competitive.

Virtually all principals, and VPs, are only a few years from retirement. And if  the MOE needs to cut them, they'll be offered more than generous financial incentives to retire early.

Also, the small schools that are still around are usually those public-private schools (granted they do get public funding), most small public-public schools have been shuttered, or are going to be closed.

When you're 21-21, single, fresh out of university and this is your first real job, 2.2mil + housing in a foreign country is quite appealing. Korea and the glitzy K-pop scene has a strong appeal to the younger female crowd.

Vietnam has more hustle potential and cheaper cost of living, but again, V-pop isn't a thing, it's appealing to a different crowd, I'd say an older crowd or a more adventure seeking younger crowd.

China's human rights atrocities are a lot more talked about these days and it has ZERO 'cool' factor.   

Korea wont be in trouble for a while. Even if youngsters are staying for a year or two before heading home or somewhere else, there'll always be another fresh uni grad to take their place. Korea doesn't demand a lot from a teacher either.

What I see happening in the next 10-15yrs is Korea growing up. There's going to be an increase in demand for more experienced and qualified teachers. It's already happening, at my MOEs last meeting (between Korean teachers) the word through the grapevine was that the Korean teachers were arguing over who gets the more experienced NETs as they were tired of dealing with inexperienced noobs (this might be your typical blame shifting, but that's apparently what was said).

The demand for experienced teachers will increase and I'm guessing that's going to eventually lead to higher pay levels. Experienced teachers will be sent to places like Seoul and Busan will the fresh grads will be sent to the sticks. I also foresee more positions opening up for NE speakers at education offices, though fluency in Korean will probably be a requirement.

The birth-rate will continue to decline and hopefully that leads to shutting down these money pits/tiny schools with 20 students. This will enrage VPs and principals at these schools (teachers will simply be moved to the bigger schools) and these VPs and principals will have to be placated with some BS "consulting" job at the education office. VP and principal positions will then become more competitive.

I guess those young kids can't do math or are believing the outdated stereotypes.  I am sure recruiters are perpetuating the outdated lies.  A 2,1 million won salary back in the day was like 3 million won in today's money.  There was very little cool factor or K pop factor in coming over here.  You came here to make money and pay off your debts.  Exchange rates and cheaper cost of living meant you could wire money home to your bank account and end up with $1500 US each month to quickly pay off debts or to save money.  Today, maybe you could save half that?  Korea is more expensive and exchange rates for Americans pretty bad.  Again, I can't understand it when someone has a good sized student loan payment how this is enough.  Most of those monthly savings will be spent on repayment without paying it down much quicker.  Seems like a young American would be a debt slave for years to come.  On the other hand when you could p[ut away double this amount, you could repay your student loans more quickly then save up money to restart a life in the west.  (Unless it is mostly rich kids where mommy and daddy paid for everything.) 

It is a terrible starting wage and I wish people would quit perpetuating the lie.  Minimum wage is nearly what it is.  You can live back in the US in a bedroom in your parents home with free housing too while starting out.  A free old dingy one room is nothing to get excited about.  A 2.1 to 2.3 million won salary is pretty terrible.  I couldn't live on it.  I keep speaking about it hoping folks will wisen up and push for more money.  They should. 

Either way, if Korea doesn't put up the wages soon, more and more folks will exit once Corona is gone.  I mean back in the day, folks wanted to teach in Japan and Thailand.  Korea was boring, dull, and grey compared to that.  Folks came here for the money and vacationed in the other places.  Most didn't teach there because the money sucked.  A few did of course.  Most didn't. 

As for Korean teachers arguing over who gets the most experienced NETS, might I suggest all of us telling our co teachers to complain to the hiring body EPIK as they decide the hiring by completely arbitrary steps which they don't reveal to anyone based on the mood of the person interviewing.  (Didn't one say to a foreigner he knew he rejected anyone over 35?  Some experienced teachers who worked for public schools before reapplied through EPIK and were rejected with no explanation given?)  Well, it may be wise to tell our Korean co teachers and through their unions to complain to EPIK directly and the national government demanding experienced teachers and for EPIK to quit turning them away or favoring young ones.  A lot of agencies and departments here seem to have a disconnect from each other not asking what they other wants. 

Either way if I lost this job, I'd ask for 2.8 to 3.2 range.  If the hakwons wouldn't pay it, I'd be gone.  It's as simple as that.  Cost of living goes up, pay must go up too.  I enjoyed my 3 million won salary (with inflation factored in with today's money - 2 million in past money actual).  It was a great starting salary.  I couldn't have imagined coming over here for minimum wage or just a bit above.  Other countries are paying more now and it's as simple as that. 

Korea will never ever increase pay levels for experienced and qualified teachers.

You'd need a paradigm shift for that to happen...ie foreign teachers teaching other subjects than EFL in public schools like they do here in China.

A 2.1 to 2.3 million won salary is pretty terrible.  I couldn't live on it.  I keep speaking about it hoping folks will wisen up and push for more money.  They should. 

You forget that many teachers are South Africans.

The average salary for a South African primary school teacher is about one third of the starting salary in Korea... and you get free accommodation in Korea. You also get to live and work in a country that's a hell of a lot safer. Boring, yes, but safe.

Your perceptions and outlook change as you get older. Your average single 22yr old is thinking about having fun, adventure and travel and 2.2mil is enough for that. Starting a family is a huge kick in the butt for a guy and he'll find himself starting to forget about adventure and crap and focusing more on retirement savings, job security, securing a decent home and having access to good schools for his kids etc.
You really can't expect a 22yr old to act and think like a 32yr old.

Either way, if Korea doesn't put up the wages soon, more and more folks will exit once Corona is gone. 

Most certainly, but new teachers will simply take their place. I'm leaving to get a higher paying job by the end of next year.

As for Korean teachers arguing over who gets the most experienced NETS, might I suggest all of us telling our co teachers to complain to the hiring body EPIK as they decide the hiring by completely arbitrary steps...

That's asking our CTs to stick their necks out for us and making our problems theirs, that's low. If I'm dissatisfied with my salary I'll go somewhere else or, if possible, take action myself.

More links. 

ze=" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">https://www.eslcafe.com/postajob-detail/updated-job-listings-high-paying-100s-of-vaca?koreasearch=&koreapageno=&koreapagesize=&chinasearch=&chinapageno=1&chinapagesize=60&internationalsearch=&internationalpageno=&internationalpagesi ze=

15,000.00 Chinese Yuan Renminbi = 2,599,783 South Korean Won
18,000.00 Chinese Yuan Renminbi = 3,120,115 South Korean Won
20,000.00 Chinese Yuan Renminbi = 3,466,377 South Korean Won
22,000.00 Chinese Yuan Renminbi = 3,813,473 South Korean Won
25,000.00 Chinese Yuan Renminbi = 4,333,355 South Korean Won
27,000.00 Chinese Yuan Renminbi = 4,680,232 South Korean Won
30,000.00 Chinese Yuan Renminbi = 5,200,026 South Korean Won

Lots of these ads have free housing too.  I have also seen flight reimbursement.  Some as high as 6000 RMB (and some a bit less).

6,000.00 Chinese Yuan Renminbi = 1,039,918 South Korean Won

A tier one city, you could spend less but also more with eating out  a lot and going around.  So, say a million won a month?  (you could spend less than this too?)  A tier two, less to do and less to spend?  A low 20's RMB salary, you could have the equivalent of  3 million won to send home to your own country each month?

3,000,000 South Korean Won = 2,674.62 US Dollars
3,000,000 South Korean Won = 3,390.87 Canadian Dollars
3,000,000 South Korean Won = 1,923.83 British Pounds
3,000,000 South Korean Won = 40,200.02 South African Rand
3,000,000 South Korean Won = 3,450.89 Australian Dollars
3,000,000 South Korean Won = 3,688.56 New Zealand Dollars
3,000,000 South Korean Won = 2,222.56 Euros

So, depending on which country you come from, you can wire this amount home each month after accounting for expenses?  Could be a bit less or more depending on pay and experiences of course.  I am basing this on a modest amount of experience teaching ESL already.  Sending money home a bit more hassle in China, but still doable.  A legal Z visa and contract means you can send home $500 US each day.  So, I would go back each day until I reach the 3 million won amount.  (That bank better have me and my info on speed dial.  Ha ha.)  Get a Chinese person to send for you.  Send by western union to a relative back home, if you trust them.  Lots of options.  (Some expats here in Korea can only send home or save the equivalent of $500 US dollars or slightly more each month.   So, China would be a big step up for many.)

I always look at the numbers and never argue based on feeling.  The numbers never lie. 

  There was very little cool factor or K pop factor in coming over here.  You came here to make money and pay off your debts.  Exchange rates and cheaper cost of living meant you could wire money home to your bank account and end up with $1500 US each month to quickly pay off debts or to save money. 

It is a terrible starting wage and I wish people would quit perpetuating the lie.  Minimum wage is nearly what it is.  You can live back in the US in a bedroom in your parents home with free housing too while starting out. 

Either way if I lost this job, I'd ask for 2.8 to 3.2 range.  If the hakwons wouldn't pay it, I'd be gone.  It's as simple as that.  Cost of living goes up, pay must go up too.  I enjoyed my 3 million won salary (with inflation factored in with today's money - 2 million in past money actual).  It was a great starting salary.  I couldn't have imagined coming over here for minimum wage or just a bit above.  Other countries are paying more now and it's as simple as that. 

You're all talk.  You keep saying you'd leave and that no one should come here, but even today you're posting about how you'll be here next year.  But everyone else who is coming over is a fool.  You?  You're good to stay on the sinking ship of Korean EFL you constantly go on about for some inexplicable reason.

As has been constantly pointed out to you, YOUR circumstances are not applicable to everyone else.  I don't understand how a full grown adult is consistently unable to grasp that.  YOU came here to pay off debt and for no other reason.  I didn't.  I had no debt at all and had a secure job in Toronto.  My gf convinced me we should shake things up and come over and have an adventure in a completely different and unknown environment.  We also planned to travel in Asia and save money.  I had a great time that first year, despite that year coinciding with the IMF crisis and cutting dramatically into my savings. 

As to making the same money and living in your parent's home, who in hell wants to do that?  Is that appealing?  I would think there are many people here making 2.1 that are loving the fact they aren't sitting back home living in their parent's house. 

You have massive blinders on and it's pointed out so often that clearly you're unable to remove them.  It boggles my mind how you can't understand people are coming over with a different perspective from your own.  If someone wants to come over and take 2.1 and have a little life adventure, are you seriously expecting them to cancel their plans because that doesn't serve your best interests? 

You forget that many teachers are South Africans.

The average salary for a South African primary school teacher is about one third of the starting salary in Korea... and you get free accommodation in Korea. You also get to live and work in a country that's a hell of a lot safer. Boring, yes, but safe.

Your perceptions and outlook change as you get older. Your average single 22yr old is thinking about having fun, adventure and travel and 2.2mil is enough for that. Starting a family is a huge kick in the butt for a guy and he'll find himself starting to forget about adventure and crap and focusing more on retirement savings, job security, securing a decent home and having access to good schools for his kids etc.
You really can't expect a 22yr old to act and think like a 32yr old.

Most certainly, but new teachers will simply take their place. I'm leaving to get a higher paying job by the end of next year.

That's asking our CTs to stick their necks out for us and making our problems theirs, that's low. If I'm dissatisfied with my salary I'll go somewhere else or, if possible, take action myself.

I still don't buy that that many are South African, plus many schools and education offices do want experienced teachers and also teachers with many "accents" and not just South Africans.  As I understand it, costs of living in some places like Cape Town are going up.  So, some of those teachers will need to make more money too.    I know South African families working here as a Level 1 plus and saying it isn't enough money anymore.  (Of course they are only one person working.)

Also, any south African here should view my previous posting of the numbers.  Having 35,000 to 40,000 rand in savings each month (from China) is probably better than whatever savings each month you think you are making here?  700 US dollars is not a lot of savings.  So, what can a South African save each month 10 or 11 thousand rand here?  Isn't 35 or 40 thousand rand better especially with rising costs in Cape Town and certain areas.