Teaching EFL in China: Pros and Cons

Not every women is, or has been, involved in prostitution. Get out there. Talk to women. Maybe you'll find the one.

I said in Korea back in the day and also still in Japan.  Asian culture.  As western ways creep in many younger women not going down that path as much as before and in the west far less.  Nothing to do with me.  Basic research and info backs it up plus what I use to see out and about.  One other example was walking by a club and bar district near Namdaemun area and seeing girls dressed normally showing off their shape and posing to a door checker before going in.  Working girl or part time working job?  hard to say but seemed suspicious.  Another time I was staying in Gangnam area and a couple dudes glared over at me and then walked over.  Thought it was some anti foreigner K dudes.  Turns out they were working for the anma and came over to invite me in.  An attractive girl stuck her head out the door with a wide eyed stare, but I passed.  Another time, I stayed in a hotel south of the main bus terminal because I was flying out to japan the next day.  A sports massage done by guys on the B1 floor was there and on B2 was a "business bar".  I accidentally went down to B2 and some ajosshi door keeper told me yuk baek dollar and made the sex gesture.  A group of tall slim pretty girls right there a bit nervous of a waygookin.  Anyways, I said wrong floor and left.  Another time I stayed in Seoul and they had a floor for flings that tourists and travelers weren't booked on.  I discovered due to that floor having a washer and dryer.  I went to do some laundry and there were separate elevators from the basement.  Girls came up with "clients".  Always cleaning ajummas going in and out of the rooms on that floor.  Saw a lot waiting for a load of wash.  Then, some girls came out at midnight and took the main elevators to go down through the lobby discretely to leave posing as hotel guests.  (Those ones prob had day jobs and were earning some part time pay.) 

Nowadays, much of that gone and what remains has gone to the internet.  I do believe prostitution in Korea has greatly reduced itself from the past.  Maybe because I didn't live in Seoul and had to go to hotels to visit and travel, I saw more of this shit plus long term at that time foreigners filling me in on stuff.  That plus stories I heard of some college girls from other parts of Korea being on their backs earning tuition money up in Seoul on weekends made it easier to believe back in the day.  Of course not all girls did this by any means and especially from smaller towns.  But, you definitely may not have known what you were getting especially if they lied about their past back in the day.  I had some chicks find me online and come to my town for flings but were mysterious and cryptic.  Quickly realized they weren't relationship material.  I was pretty naive about Asia.  Wasn't like that in the west  (at least most places).    For all I knew they may have been those kinds of girls and kept it hidden from me.  At least I didn't have to pay I guess. 

On the bright side still lots of good paying jobs being posted.

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On the bright side still lots of good paying jobs being posted.

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Maybe the women in China will be more open to you

Only about that.  A hot young 20 something chick would go have sex with some 70 year old frowning ajoshi while wearing a fake smile?  Money for dignity was definitely a thing.  Still one of the grossest memories ever.  No way I ever would have done it with a gross old woman for cash no matter how much was offered when I was younger.

I think you're illustrating a lack of understanding of women. This is further illustrated by your hypothetical comparison that you wouldn't do the same. Don't worry, plenty of women make the same mistake.

Essentially, I think men like you struggle to understand attraction from a women's perspective and likewise, many single women struggle to understand men.

Men are attracted to physical attributes of a women, whereas women are attracted to what the physical feature of a male suggests. For example, a women isn't attracted to a guy's impressive physique, but rather, the physique is an indication that he successfully takes care of himself which suggests he'd have the same success with taking care of other important things in his life i.e. his future family and spouse. You'll hear many women be grossed out at bodybuilders or super fit guys because their physique suggests they're too self-absorbed and would likely neglect their spouse to go to the gym.

Essentially, women are attracted to men who can provide a lifestyle that they desire or make them feel a certain way.

If that lifestyle focuses around 2 kids, a family home, a dog, a husband who plays soccer with his kids at the park, then she's going to be attracted to the honest, funny, hard-working bloke instead of the 70yr old millionaire who can only provide money and be dead by the time his kid can kick a soccer ball.

If that lifestyle revolves around luxury handbags and cars so she gets recognition from her peers and can caricature as a celebrity then she'll go for the 70yr old millionaire. Furthermore, ugly as he is, the 70yr old guys makes the 20yr old beauty look even more beautiful in comparison. She'll always be the attractive one in the relationship and this is important to conceited and vain people, as well as naive young girls. Dignity doesn't come into it.

The hypothetical old woman you mentioned would be incredibly unlikely as old, rich cougars tend to go after young guys because they make her feel young and she's insecure about getting old, not because of physical attraction in the way men are attracted to women.

I'd advise you to not enter a chaotic dating scene that's more appropriate for dumb 20yr olds and instead, rely on close friends or family to suggest someone. You improve your odds as close friends or family understand who you are and would suggest someone who they believe is compatible. Further, chill on the bitterness. I'm telling you, as gross as that 700lb woman, on the toilet, looks in that show 'My 600lb Life', it doesn't compare to how gross a bitter guy comes off to a women.

But honestly, even my salary won't support a wife and kids.  It may have 10 or 15 years ago here.  Pay is no good.  Better off not getting married here unless the Mrs has a really good job.  Not worth it financially. 

There are lots of 7s and 8s here.  But 9s and 10s are more infrequent.  Saw more of those in the west to be honest.

Based on the above quote, I'd say you'd hit the jackpot if a 4 was interested in dating you.

Most of my coworkers aren't that hot.  Many are married or engaged anyways.   Honestly, I seem to see more attractive women when I visit home than here.  Of course, I am not living in Seoul or Gangnam or where ever the really beautiful women gather nowadays. 

If they are gold diggers but hot, you may have stood a chance 20 plus years ago when the salary was worth something.  Today, not so much, if that is your angle.  I met a couple of these way back in the day.  Bat$h!t crazy they were.  Had to put them to the curb.  They weren't use to that.  But honestly, looking in the mirror at themselves saying "I'm a pretty girl" nonstop was like wtf?  Charming to get their way and then temper tantrums.  Like get the F out.  A lot of Asian countries and developing countries seem to have women with this mindset.  (I see more western or semi western behaviors nowadays with Korean women though ones over a certain age still can have certain standoffish behaviors whereas the younger ones are more likely to show attraction if they feel it towards you just like a western girl.)  Truly, I met hot women in Canada that were smart and didn't do this or need validation - mutual physical attraction was enough I guess.  (Of course this was pre instagram selfie days.  So, that garbage may have spread to the west now.  Sometimes, chicks around the world follow me or contact me on there now, but they are just fishing for guys to like them which I don't bother with.)

I was in my forties when I found myself released from the chains of marriage and I found no problem meeting women.  In fact, unless you're specifically hanging out in high end places, meeting younger women isn't that big of a problem.  I first dated a 27 year old that I met at a study room (it was in Gangnam but not some chic club or bar) and we had a May December romance.  Then I had a brief involvement with a 24 year old volunteer from my city's summer camp.  That was more ego driven as all the young single guys at the camp were working hard at trying to get one of the female uni volunteers and I wanted to see if I still had it.  Unceremoniously broke it off and suspect I was hated for awhile.  She really wanted a full commitment.  Too much of a mental maturity difference.  Anyways, my point is there are plenty of women that are happy to date English teachers without demanding star treatment.  As long as you are in decent shape, reasonably attractive and don't talk about the Marvel universe all the time.  And presentable is a big one here.  I see a lot of foreigners dressed like they're still in school.  And the cuffs of pants are tattered.  That's something I see here a fair bit with foreigners.  Some skinflints think if most of the pants are in good shape it's ok to keep wearing them.  Nope.  They're garbage.  Chuck 'em.

 I'd say it's the ones that are thinking it's time to settle down that are going to start judging your career prospects more. But, that's everywhere in the world. 

I said in Korea back in the day and also still in Japan.  Asian culture.  As western ways creep in many younger women not going down that path as much as before and in the west far less.  Nothing to do with me.  Basic research and info backs it up plus what I use to see out and about.  One other example was walking by a club and bar district near Namdaemun area and seeing girls dressed normally showing off their shape and posing to a door checker before going in.  Working girl or part time working job?  hard to say but seemed suspicious.  Another time I was staying in Gangnam area and a couple dudes glared over at me and then walked over.  Thought it was some anti foreigner K dudes.  Turns out they were working for the anma and came over to invite me in.  An attractive girl stuck her head out the door with a wide eyed stare, but I passed.  Another time, I stayed in a hotel south of the main bus terminal because I was flying out to japan the next day.  A sports massage done by guys on the B1 floor was there and on B2 was a "business bar".  I accidentally went down to B2 and some ajosshi door keeper told me yuk baek dollar and made the sex gesture.  A group of tall slim pretty girls right there a bit nervous of a waygookin.  Anyways, I said wrong floor and left.  Another time I stayed in Seoul and they had a floor for flings that tourists and travelers weren't booked on.  I discovered due to that floor having a washer and dryer.  I went to do some laundry and there were separate elevators from the basement.  Girls came up with "clients".  Always cleaning ajummas going in and out of the rooms on that floor.  Saw a lot waiting for a load of wash.  Then, some girls came out at midnight and took the main elevators to go down through the lobby discretely to leave posing as hotel guests.  (Those ones prob had day jobs and were earning some part time pay.) 

Sounds like you did a lot of lurking about in the wee hours in seedy places, while claiming you were naive. I bet one time you found yourself quietly strolling the halls of a motel in Texas Town and just happened to be down on the floor looking for a lost 10 won coin when you peered under the door while coincidentally having your ear pressed against it and heard something that sounded like the terms of transaction between a young woman and a grandfather.  Kind of suspicious that you had so many run ins with these places, yet you always declined. 

But gold digging ran through this culture a lot.  In the west where I came from being a decent looking guy and funny and all that stuff but not too financially secure, I had no problems with dates.  I was able to date here, but the women back then were completely different than they are today.  (Nowadays, more western ways have crept in.)  Korea was very Asian back then.  Women were very calculating.  There was no love.  Physical attraction meant nothing. 

Your Disney way of thinking is actually very new and the exception to how most of the rest of the world approaches something as serious as family and marriage.

Cold, calculating, gold-diggers, no physical attraction etc.
I call that pragmatic and realistic.

If more westerners asked questions like:
- "How much money do you make/what kind of lifestyle can you provide?"
- "Are you interested in having children?"
- "How would you raise your children?"
- "What do you think the responsibilities and role of a husband/wife should be?"

during courtship instead of spending years of dating to focus on irrelevant bullshit like favourite holiday destination or your spirit animal, we'd have a lot more successful marriages.

Another thing, how would you know anything about their wit or humour if you didn't speak the language?

I was in my forties when I found myself released from the chains of marriage and I found no problem meeting women.  In fact, unless you're specifically hanging out in high end places, meeting younger women isn't that big of a problem.  I first dated a 27 year old that I met at a study room (it was in Gangnam but not some chic club or bar) and we had a May December romance.  Then I had a brief involvement with a 24 year old volunteer from my city's summer camp.  That was more ego driven as all the young single guys at the camp were working hard at trying to get one of the female uni volunteers and I wanted to see if I still had it.  Unceremoniously broke it off and suspect I was hated for awhile.  She really wanted a full commitment.  Too much of a mental maturity difference.  Anyways, my point is there are plenty of women that are happy to date English teachers without demanding star treatment.  As long as you are in decent shape, reasonably attractive and don't talk about the Marvel universe all the time.  And presentable is a big one here.  I see a lot of foreigners dressed like they're still in school.  And the cuffs of pants are tattered.  That's something I see here a fair bit with foreigners.  Some skinflints think if most of the pants are in good shape it's ok to keep wearing them.  Nope.  They're garbage.  Chuck 'em.

 I'd say it's the ones that are thinking it's time to settle down that are going to start judging your career prospects more. But, that's everywhere in the world. 

No problem with younger women being attracted to me.  I was talking about the way Korea was years ago and not the last few years.  Maybe you have a hard time understanding details.  Korea today the women are more "westernized" especially the younger ones.  It wasn't this way years ago especially outside of Seoul.  Collective racism and cockblocking really isn't the problem as much now.  There is still some racism but it is much reduced.  I remember walking through my country town with this real attractive  girl.  Sadly she couldn't speak English and I couldn't' speak Korean much.  So, mutual physical attraction wasn't enough to  carry it.  But I could feel the eyeballs of hate from some ajosshis at the time.  A lot of girls back then didn't want to be seen with a foreigner in public due to all the abuse and social pressure they had to face at the time.  Not really like that now.  What you are discussing is apples and oranges.  I am saying what Korea was.  It has changed a lot over the past several years.  Man is no longer king in Korea like it was until several years ago. 

Judging career.  Well this was a good career with good pay at one time.  It isn't anymore.  Some women will still marry you but it will be a struggle financially.  The F Visa is no longer as lucrative as it was due to BS housing prices and other things.  You'd be better off going back home, though some k chicks want to live in Korea forever.  So, there is that problem.  Unless, Korea unexpectedly starts raising the salaries.  To be honest, it surprises me how many younger women are attracted to me over 40.  But I still don't see a lot of 9s and 10's.  Mostly 7s and 8s.  I had some pretty good looking women be mutually attracted to me back in the day. 

tl; dr

hankook77 saw a prozzie once.

No problem with younger women being attracted to me.  I was talking about the way Korea was years ago and not the last few years.  Maybe you have a hard time understanding details.  Korea today the women are more "westernized" especially the younger ones.  It wasn't this way years ago especially outside of Seoul.  Collective racism and cockblocking really isn't the problem as much now.  There is still some racism but it is much reduced.  I remember walking through my country town with this real attractive  girl.  Sadly she couldn't speak English and I couldn't' speak Korean much.  So, mutual physical attraction wasn't enough to  carry it.  But I could feel the eyeballs of hate from some ajosshis at the time.  A lot of girls back then didn't want to be seen with a foreigner in public due to all the abuse and social pressure they had to face at the time.  Not really like that now.  What you are discussing is apples and oranges.  I am saying what Korea was.  It has changed a lot over the past several years.  Man is no longer king in Korea like it was until several years ago. 

Judging career.  Well this was a good career with good pay at one time.  It isn't anymore.  Some women will still marry you but it will be a struggle financially.  The F Visa is no longer as lucrative as it was due to BS housing prices and other things.  You'd be better off going back home, though some k chicks want to live in Korea forever.  So, there is that problem.  Unless, Korea unexpectedly starts raising the salaries.  To be honest, it surprises me how many younger women are attracted to me over 40.  But I still don't see a lot of 9s and 10's.  Mostly 7s and 8s.  I had some pretty good looking women be mutually attracted to me back in the day.

My first year was 1997 outside of Seoul so be careful who you're lecturing. And I lived in Jeonju.  Seems like you just lived a sheltered existence here.  There were many westernized women back then, along with many that thought their parents would frown upon them dating a westerner.  That still happens today.  Young guys still cockblock.  There is still a cachet to dating a westerner, although that is waning in bigger cities.  My ex that was 27 told me she liked walking about in the main area of our city with me because of how many people looked at us.  She felt special.  I don't really notice people looking at me anymore.  I joined a new gym a few years back and this guy with pretty good English started chatting.  I mentioned I had lived in that city a few years, and his response surprised me.  He said "Yeah, I know.  I've seen you around on the street."  I think what has changed in regards to westerners is that Koreans have learned to be more subtle about it.  Gone are the days in Jeonju when one young co-teacher told me she liked to go down near Jeonbuk University on Friday because you could see many foreigners.  But, there is still an interest.  And has been pointed out before where there is less foreigners, there will be more interest.  And it wasn't racism, so much as xenophobia.  That's still around among a certain set.  Remember the whole "It would be too complicated to give foreigners covid cash" fiasco?  Or the different rules applied to foreigners and vaccinations?

Could you tell me what this means?  "I had some pretty good looking women be mutually attracted to me back in the day."  The women were mutually attracted to you? 

And yes, by saying I could still attract younger women, I didn't mean to imply you couldn't.  Of course, now that I read how over the top you went to emphasize the fact the young ladies are still attracted to you, I'm beginning to have my doubts. 

hangook recounting in detail all of these core memories that formed while working up the courage to enter these shady venues haha.

Nothing bitter about me.  I'm just telling you how Korea use to be.  The culture has changed a lot in the past decade and much of this has reduced itself.  If you can't read a history lesson, then I can't help you.

Of course the racist collective cockblocking

Honestly, hangook, I'm offering this without any snideness intended. You're in your 40s. Stop talking about cockblocking if you don't want to come across as bitter. It's something that a college freshman would say after failing to score at a frat party. Let it go, dude.

There's a million other things to concern yourself with when discussing relationships in your 40s. "Cockblocking" really, really shouldn't be one of them.

I didn't have to speak their language.  We spoke in English.

The ability to express and understand wit and humour requires a considerable degree of proficiency in a language. Could you express the same level of wit and humour in your 2nd language? I can't.

Of course there were white women who were uptight and serious.  They got put to the curb too.

After deciding to post on this forum again, after an hiatus, I promised myself to be less nasty so I'm trying my best to tell you this in a polite, but direct way.
Going with what "Makedudlight..." wrote, you've been unsuccessful in finding a spouse after many years of trying and you were likely "put to the curb" and rejected
at least at the same frequency that you apparently tossed all those pathetic, unworthy woman aside. This wasn't a one-way street, you also failed to meet the standards
of those you dated.

I hope you don't talk like this in the real world because women will pick up on this bitterness not long into a date and will find it incredibly unappealing.

Older more traditional Koreans didn't get wit and humor.  Slapstick was more their humor.  Younger Koreans are more likely to get it than in the past.  That is now.  But I was talking about back then.  How can you be with someone that you really aren't that attracted to but just feel comfortable around like a sibling or something.  I guess to each their own.  Many Koreans back in the day told me they had to marry for interests not love.  If they want to live their life that way, that's their right.  But it seems profoundly unhappy. 

Of course I never had to worry about societal nonsense like that back in the day.  It was just about men and women clicking.  Mind you I was in my 20s then when I lived in the west. 

Are you looking for a wife or a D&D buddy?

A spouse is about shared values, NOT interests. I think you've built up this fantasy trope, aided by Hollywood and Disney, that people who get married for pragmatic reasons end up
unhappy and that those who get married because they glanced it one another in slow-motion, to a romantic melody played on a cello, are the ones who find true happiness. Even
Shakespeare didn't believe in that "love at first sight" crap. Who said anything about being unattracted? The lifestyle a man can provide makes him more attractive to woman seeking that
lifestyle.

My wife and I have almost no interests in common, but we share the same Religion, culture, values and after 8yrs of marriage neither of us feel comfortable even saying the word divorce.

You need to get serious and realize that on the marriage market, you're both a buyer and a seller.

The disneyfication of relationships is one of the most poignant and dangerous things to happen to society in modern times.

It’s ironic that the ultra conservative dude who yearns for the good old days, also believes in the modern disneyfied idea of what relationships/marriages are supposed to work…while the more progressive sounding people are applying logic and reasoning to what one should be looking for in a long term commitment such as marriage.

“Marrying for love” is an incredibly new phenomenon that has only been around for a couple hundred years out of millennia of human culture.

Besides…how many jokes are you willing to crack to keep your marriage alive? And as the old saying goes…love don’t pay the bills (especially now that inflation is biting like a mofo)

"The best things in life are free
But you can keep 'em for the birds and bees
Now give me money (that's what I want)
That's what I want (that's what I want)
Your loving gives me a thrill
But your loving don't pay my bills
Now give me money (that's what I want)
That's what I want (that's what I want)
Money don't get everything it's true
What it don't get I can't use
Now give me money (that's what I want)

The disneyfication of relationships is one of the most poignant and dangerous things to happen to society in modern times.

Completely agree.

While there exists many reasons, one of the reasons I believe many women, particularly Korean women, are staying single is the overindulgence in the relationship fantasies of Disney, Hollywood and K-dramas. Romantic K-dramas are a female fantasy and lonely women binging on that stuff as a coping mechanism have had their expectations warped; they're staying single in the belief that if they wait long enough some tall, pretty boy, Chaebol heir is going to sweep them off their feet. Thinks to this princess phenomenon they have an inflated sense of self-worth and see men on their level as completely out of their league.

I liken this to guys who watch way too much pornography, it rots their motivation to elevate themselves to pursue a partner, makes them objectify women and deludes their sense of reality as they're so warped into their fantasies.

While I think it's best that both parties avoid the above, I think it's ok, in moderation and as long as they're cognisant of the fact that it's not reality and purely entertainment.

While there exists many reasons, one of the reasons I believe many women, particularly Korean women, are staying single is the overindulgence in the relationship fantasies of Disney, Hollywood and K-dramas. Romantic K-dramas are a female fantasy and lonely women binging on that stuff as a coping mechanism have had their expectations warped; they're staying single in the belief that if they wait long enough some tall, pretty boy, Chaebol heir is going to sweep them off their feet. Thinks to this princess phenomenon they have an inflated sense of self-worth and see men on their level as completely out of their league.

I liken this to guys who watch way too much pornography, it rots their motivation to elevate themselves to pursue a partner, makes them objectify women and deludes their sense of reality as they're so warped into their fantasies.

the reasons why more people are single is hard to pin down since as you mentioned there are a ton of em. k-dramas/pornography definitely help people cope, but as to why they're single in the first place,  i think a lot of it has to do with a societal shift away from religion towards individualism (in the west at least)

that isnt to say that people have to be religious to fall in love and whatnot of course, but the traditional places you'd meet a partner are all disappearing. from what i understand most people met their partner at church, work, or school. less people going to church, #metoo has the opposite genders tip-toeing around each other in the workplace, and i don't believe the current state of our higher education requires any comment, lol.

that isn't to say that all those changes are inherently bad, but as a society we haven't found anything to replace them yet, aside from tinder... and k-dramas and pornography ofc

the reasons why more people are single is hard to pin down since as you mentioned there are a ton of em. k-dramas/pornography definitely help people cope, but as to why they're single in the first place,  i think a lot of it has to do with a societal shift away from religion towards individualism (in the west at least)

that isnt to say that people have to be religious to fall in love and whatnot of course, but the traditional places you'd meet a partner are all disappearing. from what i understand most people met their partner at church, work, or school. less people going to church, #metoo has the opposite genders tip-toeing around each other in the workplace, and i don't believe the current state of our higher education requires any comment, lol.

that isn't to say that all those changes are inherently bad, but as a society we haven't found anything to replace them yet, aside from tinder... and k-dramas and pornography ofc

Completely agree.

While there exists many reasons, one of the reasons I believe many women, particularly Korean women, are staying single is the overindulgence in the relationship fantasies of Disney, Hollywood and K-dramas. Romantic K-dramas are a female fantasy and lonely women binging on that stuff as a coping mechanism have had their expectations warped; they're staying single in the belief that if they wait long enough some tall, pretty boy, Chaebol heir is going to sweep them off their feet. Thinks to this princess phenomenon they have an inflated sense of self-worth and see men on their level as completely out of their league.

I liken this to guys who watch way too much pornography, it rots their motivation to elevate themselves to pursue a partner, makes them objectify women and deludes their sense of reality as they're so warped into their fantasies.

While I think it's best that both parties avoid the above, I think it's ok, in moderation and as long as they're cognisant of the fact that it's not reality and purely entertainment.

I agree with the warped expectations thesis on the part of women but would add that a good proportion of the young men coming up are not partucularly enticing relationship material. Or at least that is how it seems to me. They seem quite infantile and 'flat' from a mix of being overly coddled when a child and low-key gaming addiction as an adolescent and young adult. So there is a situation where young women have these ridiculous expectations and young men who are still psychologically boys.

I agree with the warped expectations thesis on the part of women but would add that a good proportion of the young men coming up are not partucularly enticing relationship material. Or at least that is how it seems to me. They seem quite infantile and 'flat' from a mix of being overly coddled when a child and low-key gaming addiction as an adolescent and young adult. So there is a situation where young women have these ridiculous expectations and young men who are still psychologically boys.

thats true, 30 is the new 20 and all that 

thats true, 30 is the new 20 and all that 

Yes and it would potentially render them incapable of holding down a serious relationship. A still immature person would not be able to comfortably process the give-and-take and hard miles that usually go into such things. I think that goes for men and women. There was a survey I read somewhere saying that young adults in Korea find it hard to form relationships with others and my reaction was "yeah no sh-t". Back in my salad days when I taught I noticed a solid number of the kids seemed to be spoiled and had poor social skills. Lo, years later as young adults we now see this. I'm not saying this is sole factor, but it is one I am going to emphasize here, but parents really have to start f-cking raising their kids properly.