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Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #60 on: June 22, 2016, 06:40:56 pm »
Costs between £1000 and £2000 per month to rent in HK

https://www.airbnb.co.uk/s/hong-kong?checkin=01-07-2016&checkout=31-07-2016&guests=&source=bb&ss_id=5jui7bln&s_tag=8JQdsnl0

As I said before they get a housing allowance. I lived in a pretty nice two bed flat while I was there, which I could have paid for easily out of the NET scheme allowance had I been a NET.

http://www.teachanywhere.com/job-seeker/far-east-asia/hong-kong/hong-kong-net-programme/


Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2016, 07:17:59 pm »


Yet, the unemployed impoverished millenials will keep voting for Obama or an Obama clone.  They'll keep drinking the poison kool aid while going against their own interests.

Voting against their own interests? Why would they vote for a racist GOP that blatantly only cares about the megarich and a small number of fetishistic gun owners?

You can't make the argument that a GOP Congress or Presidency would automatically mean a better economy anymore, like you could in the 80's or 90's. People know that trickle-down economics is a scam, and that Republicans don't actually care about deficits or people who actually work for a living. Their platform is literally that low-wage workers should be paid even less, while taxes should be cut even more than they already are on the megarich. Why would anyone vote to give themselves less money?

And yes this is why Trump has done so well, because he's the first Republican since about the 1940's to say publicly that he gives half a crap about the working class, but he sure as hell doesn't know what to do about jobs other than bloviate about "deals," and he's a huge racist so a lot of people will have a yuuuuge problem voting for him even if he ever gets his campaign back on course.

Some teachers earn more like one in Angola on around $70k plus free accommodation. 

Good luck making that last!!!

Quote
I stopped at the Casa dos Frescos, a grocery store favored by expatriates, to buy some Scotch for my hosts, but a fifth of the Balvenie cost three hundred dollars, so I settled for a mediocre bottle of wine, for sixty-five. The woman in front of me, juggling an infant and a cell phone, unloaded her groceries on the checkout counter. She had a couple of steaks, a few pantry items, and two seventeen-dollar pints of Häagen-Dazs ice cream, along with juice and vegetables. The bill was eleven hundred and fifty dollars.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/06/01/extreme-city-specter

« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 07:25:38 pm by MayorHaggar »
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  • JNM
  • The Legend

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    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #62 on: June 22, 2016, 08:23:02 pm »
Quote


Wages are not always linked to supply and demand. E.g. teaching job wages in Korea for Korean teachers are comparatively high, though there is always a glut of people, mostly women, wanting to be public school teachers.  The idea is that the salary is high to make teaching a higher status job and to attract a higher calibre of employee.  The same is true about the Hong Kong NET scheme

That is the very definition of supply  and demand.

Don't like the quality of applicants? Raise wages.

So if wages are low, like for NETS in Korea, it's due to supply and demand and when wages are high, like for Hong Kong NETs, it's also due to supply and demand. So when is the level of wage not due to supply and demand?

Never.

Korea pays low, and gets "good enough".

HK wants more experience/credentials so they have to offer more to ensure that there are enough applicants.



  • Mr. Pink
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    • May 23, 2016, 07:24:52 pm
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Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #63 on: June 22, 2016, 08:41:15 pm »
Quote
Hong Kong requires a teaching license which a significantly fewer proportion of ESL teachers have, and if you have a teaching license you also have the option of teaching at int'l schools. Hence the high salary.

Not true, you can get on the Hong Kong NET scheme with just a CELTA - on a lower scale but still much higher than Korea.

this is technically true but it puts you in a lower category of applicants. these applicants are only hired if there aren't enough of the higher category applicants to fill the positions. and from what I've read on forums there are usually ALWAYS enough of the Category 1 and 2 applicants. so much so that people in Categories 1 and 2 are even wait-listed.

for primary school NETs you need a teaching license for Categories 1 through 3.

for secondary school the qualifications are even stricter.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 08:46:29 pm by Mr. Pink »


Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #64 on: June 22, 2016, 09:03:57 pm »
Quote


Wages are not always linked to supply and demand. E.g. teaching job wages in Korea for Korean teachers are comparatively high, though there is always a glut of people, mostly women, wanting to be public school teachers.  The idea is that the salary is high to make teaching a higher status job and to attract a higher calibre of employee.  The same is true about the Hong Kong NET scheme

That is the very definition of supply  and demand.

Don't like the quality of applicants? Raise wages.

So if wages are low, like for NETS in Korea, it's due to supply and demand and when wages are high, like for Hong Kong NETs, it's also due to supply and demand. So when is the level of wage not due to supply and demand?

Never.

Korea pays low, and gets "good enough".

HK wants more experience/credentials so they have to offer more to ensure that there are enough applicants.

True, but I think to some extent different rules to the market place apply to education.  Governments, for example, know they will always be able to fill teaching positions in public schools with qualified candidates in most subjects even if they pay crap wages and they can look at the US for evidence. However lots of countries like Korea pay more than they have to . I assume so they can create a strong image of a school teacher as an important figure in society (yes yes we know it's a bit of a facade) They do this in the expectation that it will result in more quality applicants to teaching college. This is not really my idea of supply and demand.


Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #65 on: June 23, 2016, 07:40:56 am »
Costs between £1000 and £2000 per month to rent in HK

https://www.airbnb.co.uk/s/hong-kong?checkin=01-07-2016&checkout=31-07-2016&guests=&source=bb&ss_id=5jui7bln&s_tag=8JQdsnl0

As I said before they get a housing allowance. I lived in a pretty nice two bed flat while I was there, which I could have paid for easily out of the NET scheme allowance had I been a NET.
Wow, you have lived everywhere.  No wonder you are so knowledgeable.  Was this before or after you lived in North Korea?

"Housing allowance" is basically part of your salary, so it's pointless to mention it.

Before I posted that the cost of living is higher in Hong Kong I did some research.  And it is.  Housing, as a category, is significantly more expensive than any other category, but all other categories are more expensive, giving an average of about 56% more expensive.

After I posted, I saw this:
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36587681

tl;dr
"Hong Kong is the world's most expensive city for expats, leapfrogging Angolan capital Luanda in the annual chart compiled by consultancy firm Mercer.
...
Zurich and Singapore were third and fourth on the list, unchanged from a year ago. Tokyo rose to fifth."

Seoul isn't even in the top ten.


  • seoil
  • Veteran

    • 221

    • September 09, 2013, 02:31:04 pm
Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #66 on: June 23, 2016, 11:44:12 am »
Korean wages are low because as mentioned they just hire anyone with a dodgy tesol and a degree. Hong Kong not only requires a teachers licence as YFB said, but job supply does still exceed demand. So they get to pick the best teachers out of the bunch. That's why their English education is at a level so far above Korea's we can't compare the two. It's like trying to compare a modern 1st world country to a 3rd world country.

Korea in general doesn't really understand quality vs quantity, or just quality vs profit. They are starting to understand quality a bit better these days with more people going overseas but in general the look of something is often more important than substance.

As far as they are concerned an English speaking 22 year old playing ppt games is as good as a 30 year old qualified teacher with 7 years experience in their home country.

I'm sure as the English program in Korea contracts due to government policies, the high quality schools will look for certified teachers but of course they will have to pay real teachers wages. I don't know many certified teachers who would put up with "Korean culture" just to be paid less or the same as back home.

Most certified teachers that are here are here for a reason, family, taking a 1 year break, or something like that.

Amen...so true.


Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #67 on: June 23, 2016, 12:26:06 pm »
Quote


Wages are not always linked to supply and demand. E.g. teaching job wages in Korea for Korean teachers are comparatively high, though there is always a glut of people, mostly women, wanting to be public school teachers.  The idea is that the salary is high to make teaching a higher status job and to attract a higher calibre of employee.  The same is true about the Hong Kong NET scheme

That is the very definition of supply  and demand.

Don't like the quality of applicants? Raise wages.

It's called a strong union.  In Canada teachers unions are strong and they can push the wages up even if the supply would normally pull them down.  There are things that artifically interfere with normal supply and demand.  Unions are less strong here, but teachers associations have some political pull and clout.  In California and some states too, but other states not so much.  The high wages ensures there is a high glut of people wanting to be teachers. 


Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #68 on: June 23, 2016, 12:38:46 pm »


Yet, the unemployed impoverished millenials will keep voting for Obama or an Obama clone.  They'll keep drinking the poison kool aid while going against their own interests.

Voting against their own interests? Why would they vote for a racist GOP that blatantly only cares about the megarich and a small number of fetishistic gun owners?

You can't make the argument that a GOP Congress or Presidency would automatically mean a better economy anymore, like you could in the 80's or 90's. People know that trickle-down economics is a scam, and that Republicans don't actually care about deficits or people who actually work for a living. Their platform is literally that low-wage workers should be paid even less, while taxes should be cut even more than they already are on the megarich. Why would anyone vote to give themselves less money?

And yes this is why Trump has done so well, because he's the first Republican since about the 1940's to say publicly that he gives half a crap about the working class, but he sure as hell doesn't know what to do about jobs other than bloviate about "deals," and he's a huge racist so a lot of people will have a yuuuuge problem voting for him even if he ever gets his campaign back on course.

Some teachers earn more like one in Angola on around $70k plus free accommodation. 

Good luck making that last!!!

Quote
I stopped at the Casa dos Frescos, a grocery store favored by expatriates, to buy some Scotch for my hosts, but a fifth of the Balvenie cost three hundred dollars, so I settled for a mediocre bottle of wine, for sixty-five. The woman in front of me, juggling an infant and a cell phone, unloaded her groceries on the checkout counter. She had a couple of steaks, a few pantry items, and two seventeen-dollar pints of Häagen-Dazs ice cream, along with juice and vegetables. The bill was eleven hundred and fifty dollars.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/06/01/extreme-city-specter

Well if people want to believe lies about racism that the media exagerates and democratic allied groups spin, then they'll have no right to bitch about the continued terrible economic conditions a year or two from now if they continue to vote for more of the same.  You either vote for change or you vote for a continuation. 

The employment rate is low as low as the 1970's (around 62% of the population is working right now) and GDP growth is around 1 to 1.5%.  The employment rate should be miuch higher and GDP growth should be over 4% minimum to have true growth and to really see wages go up.  The late 80's and 90's did have this.  But the trend to downsize manufacturing really began in the 1970's due to massive inflation, going off the gold standard, governments borrowing too much and spending too much, etc. 

Obama-down economics is a scam and the numbers are pure BS.  Now maybe a lot of stupid people are going to keep voting for the continuation of the same policies, that's their choice.  Maybe when they're 45 and sick of living in their parents basement they'll wisen up.  But it might be too late by then.  The economy may be so slumped for so long there may be no coming back. 

BTW, Wall street and the hedge fund managers are donating to Clinton and are supporting her overwhelmingly.  Most of the rich don't like Trump.  (Neither do most blue bloods in the Republican party.)  He's always been closer to the blue collar worker.  These entities also gave a lot to Jeb Bush because both Clinton and Bush were seen as acceptable puppets.  If you really want to put these crooks in their place, plug your nose and vote Trump.  If you want more money and politics and continued paltry economic growth, vote Clinton.  Those are your choices.  The media is owned by large conglomerates and are going to push Clinton and exagerate stories about Trump as well as out and right lie.  They are scared of him because he sees through their smoke and mirrors.  I wish he would use more tact at times, I admit, but he's the lesser of two evils. 

As for the working class, when Clinton says she's going to put a lot of people out of work, is it any wonder why a lot of blue collar workers are going to Trump?  Drive out manufacturing, end coal mining, etc.  Send it to China, Mexico where ever.  Well screw Clinton and Obama. 
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 12:41:28 pm by weigookin74 »


Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #69 on: June 23, 2016, 01:08:15 pm »
Costs between £1000 and £2000 per month to rent in HK

https://www.airbnb.co.uk/s/hong-kong?checkin=01-07-2016&checkout=31-07-2016&guests=&source=bb&ss_id=5jui7bln&s_tag=8JQdsnl0

As I said before they get a housing allowance. I lived in a pretty nice two bed flat while I was there, which I could have paid for easily out of the NET scheme allowance had I been a NET.
Wow, you have lived everywhere.  No wonder you are so knowledgeable.  Was this before or after you lived in North Korea?

"Housing allowance" is basically part of your salary, so it's pointless to mention it.

Before I posted that the cost of living is higher in Hong Kong I did some research.  And it is.  Housing, as a category, is significantly more expensive than any other category, but all other categories are more expensive, giving an average of about 56% more expensive.

After I posted, I saw this:
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36587681

tl;dr
"Hong Kong is the world's most expensive city for expats, leapfrogging Angolan capital Luanda in the annual chart compiled by consultancy firm Mercer.
...
Zurich and Singapore were third and fourth on the list, unchanged from a year ago. Tokyo rose to fifth."

Seoul isn't even in the top ten.

I guess it is then if that survey says so. I was making a lot more money, paid virtually no tax and ended up saving more than I did in Korea (North and South) so I guess I didn't notice. It took me ages to get the prices right in my head too as the Hong Kong dollar isn't easy to compare to the pound if you're crap at Maths. I know one thing public transport was definitely cheaper. Tram and subway were both cheaper than Seoul
« Last Edit: June 23, 2016, 01:33:35 pm by eggieguffer »


  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 4419

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #70 on: June 23, 2016, 01:21:11 pm »
Quote


Wages are not always linked to supply and demand. E.g. teaching job wages in Korea for Korean teachers are comparatively high, though there is always a glut of people, mostly women, wanting to be public school teachers.  The idea is that the salary is high to make teaching a higher status job and to attract a higher calibre of employee.  The same is true about the Hong Kong NET scheme

That is the very definition of supply  and demand.

Don't like the quality of applicants? Raise wages.

It's called a strong union.  In Canada teachers unions are strong and they can push the wages up even if the supply would normally pull them down.  There are things that artifically interfere with normal supply and demand.  Unions are less strong here, but teachers associations have some political pull and clout.  In California and some states too, but other states not so much.  The high wages ensures there is a high glut of people wanting to be teachers.

Yes.  Unions and government policy tinker with the "ideal" supply demand curve.

Unions (not individual workers) own the supply, and Governements own the demand.  Workers are just that meaty thing in the middle.


Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #71 on: June 23, 2016, 01:37:28 pm »
Rent in much of the US is getting ridiculous while wages are going down especially for workers under 40. Entry-level jobs pay beans and are usually part-time, and that's if you're lucky enough to avoid getting stuck in indentured servitude an unpaid internship. And after making hardly any monry you have to pay like $500 to $1000 for the pleasure of living in someone's closet. 2.1m hagwon jobs will continue to be a better choice until things change.

10 years ago kids in the US were making similar wages as now but rent was like $350 to $600 for a room and $600 to $1300 for your own 1br, even somewhere like San Francisco. Wages in South Korea might be the same but at least rent is still ZERO for most teachers. As a former San Francisco resident this is huge to me.

I've been to San Fran a couple times... my bank account gets cut in half just stepping foot in that city! Idk if that's a good place to use as an example, I'm from the southwest and you can find pretty cheap housing there. The free apartment is pretty nice here, but I get tired of living of a broom-closet here too..



Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #72 on: June 23, 2016, 01:53:50 pm »
Quote


Wages are not always linked to supply and demand. E.g. teaching job wages in Korea for Korean teachers are comparatively high, though there is always a glut of people, mostly women, wanting to be public school teachers.  The idea is that the salary is high to make teaching a higher status job and to attract a higher calibre of employee.  The same is true about the Hong Kong NET scheme

That is the very definition of supply  and demand.

Don't like the quality of applicants? Raise wages.

It's called a strong union.  In Canada teachers unions are strong and they can push the wages up even if the supply would normally pull them down.  There are things that artifically interfere with normal supply and demand.  Unions are less strong here, but teachers associations have some political pull and clout.  In California and some states too, but other states not so much.  The high wages ensures there is a high glut of people wanting to be teachers.

Yes.  Unions and government policy tinker with the "ideal" supply demand curve.

Unions (not individual workers) own the supply, and Governements own the demand.  Workers are just that meaty thing in the middle.

Honestly, if those union jobs came back where you had to repetitively make widgets all day but had a good middle class lifestyle, I'd half consider it.  My education level is irrelevant.  Also, I had worked with some blue collar folks before.  Good folks, hard working, a few slackers to be sure, and many (not all) were quite smart (even without going for years of formal education which seems to be becoming brainwashing anyhow nowadays).  My local city government workers had a good gig going on even if they bitched all the time.  Ha ha.  At this point, I really don't care what status my work has, just that I can afford to live a middle class lifestyle.  But when the job sucks and then you can't even afford to do anything because they don't pay anything, that's when you get pissed.  If the job sucks but you got some money to do things, it partially compensates.  Though I suppose a lot of those guys cant wait to retire. 


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4856

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #73 on: June 23, 2016, 09:23:28 pm »
Now maybe a lot of stupid people are going to keep voting for the continuation of the same policies, that's their choice.  Maybe when they're 45 and sick of living in their parents basement they'll wisen up.  But it might be too late by then.  The economy may be so slumped for so long there may be no coming back.

90 percent of 34-year-olds live in their own home, while 60 percent of those have children.

Saw this in today's news:

-The number of Americans filing for unemployment benefits fell last week to near a 43-year low.

-Claims have now been below 300,000, a threshold associated with a strong job market, for 68 straight weeks, the longest streak since 1973.

-Labor market optimism is being spurred by near record high job openings, as well as the very low layoffs.


  • asiaman
  • Adventurer

    • 58

    • June 19, 2016, 09:07:39 am
Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #74 on: June 23, 2016, 10:17:02 pm »
Why don't you all become American doctors? My friend's dad was an American doctor from Argentina and at his peak, he was making $60,000 a month and payrolling two doctors $100k per year each. He had a nice 3 bed detached house in Scottsdale AZ. he has since retired and spent a lot of his money he earned travelling to Argentina and building a house there.


  • Mr C
  • The Legend

    • 2024

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #75 on: June 23, 2016, 11:18:57 pm »
Why don't you all become American doctors?
Right back at you, Bub.
Mr. C is not a bad person, in fact is quite a good person here. One of the best people on this forum if you really look at it
-Mr.DeMartino