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  • JahMoo
  • Expert Waygook

    • 639

    • May 11, 2016, 12:55:18 pm
    • Gyeonggi-do, ROK
Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2016, 11:01:02 am »
I don't really get what your complaint is. If the pay was too low for you, you would just not come here. And the country wouldn't notice. Because there's someone else who will gladly take your place, and likely work even harder than you. The salary you're aiming for? You don't have the credentials for it. Become fluent in native language of the country you're trying to move to, and maybe you can get closer. Get a Masters degree while you're at it. Then, maybe you can earn what you're looking for. But then again, there's probably a Korean person with a Masters who is fluent in English who gets along well with the bosses... that guy has the job you're looking for.


Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2016, 11:01:22 am »
Lol @ OP pretending he's not UK teacher throughout this whole thread.

Apologies to Sonny for the shame I brought to his great name.


  • z80
  • Expert Waygook

    • 661

    • August 24, 2014, 07:34:50 pm
Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2016, 11:04:50 am »
Korean wages are low because as mentioned they just hire anyone with a dodgy tesol and a degree. Hong Kong not only requires a teachers licence as YFB said, but job supply does still exceed demand. So they get to pick the best teachers out of the bunch. That's why their English education is at a level so far above Korea's we can't compare the two. It's like trying to compare a modern 1st world country to a 3rd world country.

Korea in general doesn't really understand quality vs quantity, or just quality vs profit. They are starting to understand quality a bit better these days with more people going overseas but in general the look of something is often more important than substance.

As far as they are concerned an English speaking 22 year old playing ppt games is as good as a 30 year old qualified teacher with 7 years experience in their home country.

I'm sure as the English program in Korea contracts due to government policies, the high quality schools will look for certified teachers but of course they will have to pay real teachers wages. I don't know many certified teachers who would put up with "Korean culture" just to be paid less or the same as back home.

Most certified teachers that are here are here for a reason, family, taking a 1 year break, or something like that.


Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2016, 11:46:12 am »
Rent in much of the US is getting ridiculous while wages are going down especially for workers under 40. Entry-level jobs pay beans and are usually part-time, and that's if you're lucky enough to avoid getting stuck in indentured servitude an unpaid internship. And after making hardly any monry you have to pay like $500 to $1000 for the pleasure of living in someone's closet. 2.1m hagwon jobs will continue to be a better choice until things change.

10 years ago kids in the US were making similar wages as now but rent was like $350 to $600 for a room and $600 to $1300 for your own 1br, even somewhere like San Francisco. Wages in South Korea might be the same but at least rent is still ZERO for most teachers. As a former San Francisco resident this is huge to me.
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  • Tony Teacher
  • Veteran

    • 170

    • April 26, 2012, 10:10:52 am
    • Seoul
    more
Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2016, 01:24:56 pm »
I think teacher salaries all over the world should be higher in general, but they just aren't. And unfortunately, PS schools in Korea are already cutting English teaching jobs for NETS. It's already happened in parts of Seoul, and it's only a matter of time before it happens all across Korea.

So, it's impossible for salaries to go up now. Especially since the government has been making attempts to lessen the general demand for private education.
Business Consultant and Coach at www.entrepreneurkor ea.com and www.hagwonstart.com


  • JahMoo
  • Expert Waygook

    • 639

    • May 11, 2016, 12:55:18 pm
    • Gyeonggi-do, ROK
Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2016, 01:54:10 pm »
Oh, that's the other thing. The Korean government does not want Hagwons/Private teaching to be a thing. It already is, of course, but they're trying to lessen the need for it as much as possible. The government can put caps on your max pay at a private institution, while also controllng the pay at public schools. They try to make public school teaching more attractive to foreigners if possible, and paint hagwons as unreliable (which they often are).


  • nomadicmadda
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1585

    • July 01, 2014, 06:49:40 am
    • Seoul, formerly Boseong
    more
Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2016, 02:03:35 pm »
It's like trying to compare a modern 1st world country to a 3rd world country.

Korea in general doesn't really understand quality vs quantity, or just quality vs profit. They are starting to understand quality a bit better these days with more people going overseas but in general the look of something is often more important than substance.

This.  People forget that until very recently, Korea basically WAS a 3rd world country.  And it didn't jump into modernity on it's own, it received a hell of a lot of help from the USA.  Even the previous Japanese occupation brought a ton of technology and modernity to the country that Koreans are loathe to admit.

I don't think this excuses Korea's behavior and methods, but I do think it's a pretty good explanation as to "why" the country and society operate the way they do.


  • asiaman
  • Adventurer

    • 58

    • June 19, 2016, 09:07:39 am
Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2016, 02:08:12 pm »
Hong Kong requires a teaching license which a significantly fewer proportion of ESL teachers have, and if you have a teaching license you also have the option of teaching at int'l schools. Hence the high salary.
Not always true. I have a teaching licence and TEFLA and I have been offered a job at an international school in the UAE teachinf ESL for 11000AED per month plus free accommodation (2000 or 3.4m won). I know other teachers on about the same, Some teachers earn more like one in Angola on around $70k plus free accommodation.  China pays IS teachers from 35000 up to 50,000 depending on experience but not all IS pay that. some pay less.


Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2016, 02:08:21 pm »
Well, a 2.1 milion salary in 2006 with 3% inflation is equal to 2 822 224 in 2016.  This isn't factoring in other things like taxes, exchange rates, etc.  But some years the official inflation rate may have been lower than 3% (nevermind the arguement about real inflation probably being higher).  Anyways, teachers a decade ago did have a higher quality of life in some ways, though most foreign goods were harder to find, were more expensive, and electronics cost much more compared to now here.  Clothing cost (and maybe electronics) are either the same price as a decade ago while some are cheaper. 

So, let's say without the exchange rate factored in, you should make at least 2.6 to have a similar purchasing power to a 2.1 worker 10 years ago?  Conservative estimate.  So, a 2.1 million won worker today is making lets estimate 1.6 or 1.7 million won in 2006 won.  I do remember being told in 2007 or 2008 that 1.5 million won was the bare minimum for middle class and that a girl would look at a Korean guy.  (Though that was not in Seoul.)  So, today, with inflation, that amount would be higher? 

I was actually at 1.95 million when I got here at the end of 2006 and felt I had plenty.  Paid bare minimum on debts (would regret later after the recession hit the Korean ESL industry like a wrecking ball).  Went to 2.15, then 2.3, then 2.5, then up up.  It was around 2.3 that we started getting multiple school allowances, renewal allowances, etc.  Overtime was skimpy for me, though some folks in Gyeongi gi amd Seoul really cleaned up with overtime and being paid for English camps.  I never got those perks, but felt good the first year to year  half.  Exchange rate dropping hit hard, but I kept spending and the cards soared.  Improved exchange rate for me has helped the last couple of years so I feel ok.  But being over 3 mil including renewal allowances, multiple school allowances, and some slight overtime occasionally helps.  But a 2.1 mil with tons of debt to pay?  I'd feel so ripped.  It's ok if you have no debt and just want to blow cash for a year and have no savings left over.  But, 2.1 is too low.  Hakwon owners do rake it in and can afford to do more than nickle and dime.  I mean making 16 million won in profit vs making 18 million won isstill going to be good money for the owner and the korean and foreign teacher will be much better motivated to teach.  Paying a Korean teacher 1.5 million and a waygook 2.1 million might have been ok in 2006, but only breeds resentment in 2016.  Bump the foreign teacher to 2.6 and the Korean teacher to 2.0 million won. 

Given the rise of minimum wage.  In another 2 or 3 years, I'm guessing it will be man won an hour.  Expect even more inflation due to that and also if your wages still stays the same, you'll be not much better off than a minimum wage worker.  Korea works for me for now.  But may not in the future. 


Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2016, 02:10:18 pm »
P.S. My salary should be higher.

Funny how much traffic UKTeacher's posts get considering how everyone generally agrees he's a troll and kind of loathes him.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 11:17:27 pm by donovan »


  • khalavala
  • Expert Waygook

    • 505

    • July 31, 2014, 06:13:40 am
    • Toronto
    more
Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #50 on: June 22, 2016, 02:15:48 pm »
My salary should be higher.

Funny how much traffic UKTeacher's posts get considering how everyone generally agrees he's a troll and kind of loathes him.

When you know a trainwreck is about to happen or a building will explode (demolished) people will gather to make witness.


Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #51 on: June 22, 2016, 02:18:00 pm »
Rent in much of the US is getting ridiculous while wages are going down especially for workers under 40. Entry-level jobs pay beans and are usually part-time, and that's if you're lucky enough to avoid getting stuck in indentured servitude an unpaid internship. And after making hardly any monry you have to pay like $500 to $1000 for the pleasure of living in someone's closet. 2.1m hagwon jobs will continue to be a better choice until things change.

10 years ago kids in the US were making similar wages as now but rent was like $350 to $600 for a room and $600 to $1300 for your own 1br, even somewhere like San Francisco. Wages in South Korea might be the same but at least rent is still ZERO for most teachers. As a former San Francisco resident this is huge to me.

Because the economy's been shit for non silicon valley workers and other folks in elite industries.  The economic conditions combined with costly zoning rule restriction building or other types of building restrictions constrict supply combined with too many outsiders bidding and driving up prices.  Also, when there's a 1 or 1.5 % GDP growth and a low employment rate (62%) not putting upward pressure on wages, it's a perfect sit storm.  Everyone from local government (worst offenders) to state governments (green Jerry Brown), to the federal government (with an EPA going postal), it's no wonder the recovery has been so sluggish.  It's better than it was, but not near the potential. 

Yet, the unemployed impoverished millenials will keep voting for Obama or an Obama clone.  They'll keep drinking the poison kool aid while going against their own interests.  If it were me, I'd support the rude businessman that reminds us of that loud mouthed uncle because I believe he can get the job done.  I may find some things in poor taste, but smashing the crooked system currently in place maybe needs someone outspoken who will smash things up like a bull in a china shop.  This fall will either be more of the same or something different (maybe even something better).  The last number of yers have been pretty devestating though I'm grateful for getting into Korea at the right time and keeping my head above water.  But, maybe I'd like to go home one day.  We all really do need an economic boom. 
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 02:19:39 pm by weigookin74 »


  • asiaman
  • Adventurer

    • 58

    • June 19, 2016, 09:07:39 am
Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #52 on: June 22, 2016, 02:21:16 pm »
Well, a 2.1 milion salary in 2006 with 3% inflation is equal to 2 822 224 in 2016.  This isn't factoring in other things like taxes, exchange rates, etc.  But some years the official inflation rate may have been lower than 3% (nevermind the arguement about real inflation probably being higher).  Anyways, teachers a decade ago did have a higher quality of life in some ways, though most foreign goods were harder to find, were more expensive, and electronics cost much more compared to now here.  Clothing cost (and maybe electronics) are either the same price as a decade ago while some are cheaper. 

So, let's say without the exchange rate factored in, you should make at least 2.6 to have a similar purchasing power to a 2.1 worker 10 years ago?  Conservative estimate.  So, a 2.1 million won worker today is making lets estimate 1.6 or 1.7 million won in 2006 won.  I do remember being told in 2007 or 2008 that 1.5 million won was the bare minimum for middle class and that a girl would look at a Korean guy.  (Though that was not in Seoul.)  So, today, with inflation, that amount would be higher? 

I was actually at 1.95 million when I got here at the end of 2006 and felt I had plenty.  Paid bare minimum on debts (would regret later after the recession hit the Korean ESL industry like a wrecking ball).  Went to 2.15, then 2.3, then 2.5, then up up.  It was around 2.3 that we started getting multiple school allowances, renewal allowances, etc.  Overtime was skimpy for me, though some folks in Gyeongi gi amd Seoul really cleaned up with overtime and being paid for English camps.  I never got those perks, but felt good the first year to year  half.  Exchange rate dropping hit hard, but I kept spending and the cards soared.  Improved exchange rate for me has helped the last couple of years so I feel ok.  But being over 3 mil including renewal allowances, multiple school allowances, and some slight overtime occasionally helps.  But a 2.1 mil with tons of debt to pay?  I'd feel so ripped.  It's ok if you have no debt and just want to blow cash for a year and have no savings left over.  But, 2.1 is too low.  Hakwon owners do rake it in and can afford to do more than nickle and dime.  I mean making 16 million won in profit vs making 18 million won isstill going to be good money for the owner and the korean and foreign teacher will be much better motivated to teach.  Paying a Korean teacher 1.5 million and a waygook 2.1 million might have been ok in 2006, but only breeds resentment in 2016.  Bump the foreign teacher to 2.6 and the Korean teacher to 2.0 million won. 

Given the rise of minimum wage.  In another 2 or 3 years, I'm guessing it will be man won an hour.  Expect even more inflation due to that and also if your wages still stays the same, you'll be not much better off than a minimum wage worker.  Korea works for me for now.  But may not in the future.

My point eactly. Should be 2.6m won minimum for all teachers here really in 2016.


Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #53 on: June 22, 2016, 02:22:04 pm »
Som schools are paying more as the market has partially improved.  Saw this ad.  Not endorsing them.  I have no clue who they are.  Just an example. 

http://www.waygook.org/index.php/topic,98448.0.html


Also, have your documents ready and get the ASAP offers.  You might be able to get them by the b@lls and demand more salary, especially if they're pulling this one way flight crap.  That merits an extra 100, 000 a month in pay right away.  Anyways, even if you can push for 2.5 minimum if the owner is desperate.  By pass the jerk recruiter who will dismiss it.  Feign interest in the position, then change the contract sent to you to your terms pay, etc.  Send it back, speak to the owner or head teacher and then say what you want.  We can all still do our part to push it up especially as more folks do go home. 
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 02:26:28 pm by weigookin74 »


  • asiaman
  • Adventurer

    • 58

    • June 19, 2016, 09:07:39 am
Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #54 on: June 22, 2016, 02:29:16 pm »
ABout the US (I'm from UK), I saw that in New Mexico, teachers' salaries start from $30k up to about $50k so not all that. There's a J1 visa for UK teachers who want to teach or study etc in America. I also saw on AirBandB that a room in Albuquerque costs nearly $1000 a month. So teachers there aren't all that well off.

My American friend is a freeland motion picture editor in Burbank, CA and he charges loads for editing..like $9-$10k per job. He makes around $50-$60k a year as he isn't always working. He's in LA though where they pay those prices. He pays $1500 a month for a 1bed apartment. I think he's brave doing freelance and having to pay for an apartment but he's managed for 9 years


Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #55 on: June 22, 2016, 04:03:10 pm »
Quote
Hong Kong requires a teaching license which a significantly fewer proportion of ESL teachers have, and if you have a teaching license you also have the option of teaching at int'l schools. Hence the high salary.

Not true, you can get on the Hong Kong NET scheme with just a CELTA - on a lower scale but still much higher than Korea.

Quote
Because the cost of living is higher?

If the wages in Hong Kong were lower no-one would want to teach there (because they couldn't afford it).  Supply would drop.  When it drops too far the wages would have to go up again.

The cost of living is higher in some areas e.g. housing, but your housing allowance covers that. Other costs are on a par with Seoul.

Wages are not always linked to supply and demand. E.g. teaching job wages in Korea for Korean teachers are comparatively high, though there is always a glut of people, mostly women, wanting to be public school teachers.  The idea is that the salary is high to make teaching a higher status job and to attract a higher calibre of employee.  The same is true about the Hong Kong NET scheme


  • asiaman
  • Adventurer

    • 58

    • June 19, 2016, 09:07:39 am
Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #56 on: June 22, 2016, 04:19:58 pm »
If you ONLY have a CELTA and want to work in hong kong you will only earn about 20000 HK dollars a month and have to pay your own accommodation I think. Mostly at language schools this work is to be found.

If you want to be a NET?SNET teacher, you need a bachelor's degree in english and a teaching licence like a PGCE and preferably a CELTA and 1 years teaching experience. If you have other bachelor degrees, you need a teacher's licence again and a CELTA and 1 years experience. the housing allowance is around 19k HK dollars. with the salary it comes to almost 50k HK dollars a month


  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 4419

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #57 on: June 22, 2016, 05:15:12 pm »
Quote


Wages are not always linked to supply and demand. E.g. teaching job wages in Korea for Korean teachers are comparatively high, though there is always a glut of people, mostly women, wanting to be public school teachers.  The idea is that the salary is high to make teaching a higher status job and to attract a higher calibre of employee.  The same is true about the Hong Kong NET scheme

That is the very definition of supply  and demand.

Don't like the quality of applicants? Raise wages.


  • asiaman
  • Adventurer

    • 58

    • June 19, 2016, 09:07:39 am


Re: PS salaries should be higher
« Reply #59 on: June 22, 2016, 06:26:52 pm »
Quote


Wages are not always linked to supply and demand. E.g. teaching job wages in Korea for Korean teachers are comparatively high, though there is always a glut of people, mostly women, wanting to be public school teachers.  The idea is that the salary is high to make teaching a higher status job and to attract a higher calibre of employee.  The same is true about the Hong Kong NET scheme

That is the very definition of supply  and demand.

Don't like the quality of applicants? Raise wages.

So if wages are low, like for NETS in Korea and there is a glut of qualified candidates, it's due to supply and demand and when wages are high, like for Hong Kong NETs, and there's a glut of qualified candidates, it's also due to supply and demand. So when is the level of wage not due to supply and demand?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 08:14:28 pm by eggieguffer »