Read 6735 times

Muhammed Ali has died
« on: June 04, 2016, 12:57:41 pm »


  • maximmm
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1447

    • September 05, 2013, 11:02:44 am
Re: Muhammed Ali has died
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2016, 05:03:02 pm »
Er... last I checked, he hasn't competed in a few decades.  The sport will continue to be in the crappy state it is in just fine without him. 


  • vietpham
  • Super Waygook

    • 351

    • April 28, 2012, 08:33:18 pm
    • South Korea
Re: Muhammed Ali has died
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2016, 08:38:07 pm »
Ali Bomaye.  A socially minded sports figure that resisted the vietnam war draft and won. Ali Bomaye.  I hope he finds peace. 


Re: Muhammed Ali has died
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2016, 07:41:02 am »
Ali Bomaye.  A socially minded sports figure that resisted the vietnam war draft and won. Ali Bomaye.  I hope he finds peace.

If he'd been a politician he'd have been castigated for that. So how does he get a pass by converting to a religion that goes against a lot of the freedoms the US hold dear? Just by being so great in other ways I guess.


  • vietpham
  • Super Waygook

    • 351

    • April 28, 2012, 08:33:18 pm
    • South Korea
Re: Muhammed Ali has died
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2016, 12:58:37 pm »
Ali Bomaye.  A socially minded sports figure that resisted the vietnam war draft and won. Ali Bomaye.  I hope he finds peace.

If he'd been a politician he'd have been castigated for that. So how does he get a pass by converting to a religion that goes against a lot of the freedoms the US hold dear? Just by being so great in other ways I guess.

Sorry if there was some confusion.  "Ali Bomaye" means "Ali kill him(George Foreman)" which was what the pro-Ali crowd in Zaire was chanting.  It's has nothing to do with Islam.  I'm saying it to praise Ali.

As far as religion going against freedoms of the US.  All religion from the middle east including Christianity goes against those freedoms.  The difference is the people's interpretation of it.  You have pacifist like Jimmy Carter and war mongers like Bush both being devout christians.   


Re: Muhammed Ali has died
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2016, 01:30:20 pm »
No desire to get into a religious discussion. However I was curious about whether people in the US view Ali dodging the draft in a positive or negative light. Since vietpham seems to think it was a point in his favour. 


Re: Muhammed Ali has died
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2016, 04:45:05 pm »
Ali had a big mouth, he was a show-off.

But plenty of heavyweights have better records than him in the ring. Klitschko, Louis, Tunney, Marciano etc.

Ali became a cultural icon because of his entertainment value. The media loves creating  cultural heroes and then milking them.

He represents the start of American reality TV culture whereby whoever has the greatest attention-grabbing style is deemed to be the winner,  in the minds of the people although not based on any objective measure. Now even presidents get elected this way.

 
Creating shared values


  • waygo0k
  • The Legend

    • 4136

    • September 27, 2011, 11:51:01 am
    • Chungnam
Re: Muhammed Ali has died
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2016, 05:52:24 pm »
Yes he had a big mouth, and he made sure to back everything he said up with his actions both in and out of the ring.

As for his refusal to fight in the Vietnam war, I wouldn't see that as draft dodging...since he didn't dodge anything.

He clearly gave his reasons for refusing to fight, and willingly went to prison for his decision.



Re: Muhammed Ali has died
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2016, 06:25:32 pm »
I didn't realise his mother and father were raped and killed.


Re: Muhammed Ali has died
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2016, 06:30:42 pm »
Ali had a big mouth, he was a show-off.

But plenty of heavyweights have better records than him in the ring. Klitschko, Louis, Tunney, Marciano etc.

Ali became a cultural icon because of his entertainment value. The media loves creating  cultural heroes and then milking them.

He represents the start of American reality TV culture whereby whoever has the greatest attention-grabbing style is deemed to be the winner,  in the minds of the people although not based on any objective measure. Now even presidents get elected this way.

Tyson was the most impressive I ever saw but he wasn't ever likely to be a darling of the media 


  • waygo0k
  • The Legend

    • 4136

    • September 27, 2011, 11:51:01 am
    • Chungnam
Re: Muhammed Ali has died
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2016, 07:09:55 pm »
I didn't realise his mother and father were raped and killed.

Sure.

There's a lot of things people don't realise these days.


  • zola
  • The Legend

    • 2917

    • September 30, 2012, 06:56:11 am
    • Korea
Re: Muhammed Ali has died
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2016, 07:51:21 pm »
I didn't realise his mother and father were raped and killed.

Sure.

There's a lot of things people don't realise these days.
Um. No they weren't. They both lived up until the 1990s.

Ali  was a brilliant boxer. A professional record doesnt tell us everything about a fighters true talent and 4 of what would have been possibly his golden fighting years were denied him.

Regardless, some of the mythologizing going on by people who obviously know little to nothing about the man (ala waygo0k) is kind of stupid. He should be remembered as a truly great boxer and someone who stood up for what he believed in. His legacy is pretty much iron clad.
 His parents weren't murdered, he didnt spend more than a few hours in jail and he had his flaws like every human.
Kpip! - Martin 2018


  • waygo0k
  • The Legend

    • 4136

    • September 27, 2011, 11:51:01 am
    • Chungnam
Re: Muhammed Ali has died
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2016, 04:19:22 am »
When Ali talked about his parents being raped and killed, or himself being lynched, or being sent to shoot his brother...most people happen understand the symbolism of what he was saying.

Others pretend to play dumb and ask questions to try to discredit the man's word...or maybe they're just having a laugh.

There is no mythologizing of the man, and nobody said his actual parents were raped and killed.



Re: Muhammed Ali has died
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2016, 05:30:47 am »
When Ali talked about his parents being raped and killed, or himself being lynched, or being sent to shoot his brother...most people happen understand the symbolism of what he was saying.

Others pretend to play dumb and ask questions to try to discredit the man's word...or maybe they're just having a laugh.

There is no mythologizing of the man, and nobody said his actual parents were raped and killed.

I was pretty confused by what he was saying actually. At first I thought he was complaining about things that had actually happened to him but then I thought maybe he's talking about things that happened to black people/Muslims? in the U.S., or the world, recently, or some time in the past? If he was saying this in 1967 when he got called up, however, the Vietnamese would probably have already done all these things, and worse, to black U.S. soldiers fighting in the war.

Generally what individuals have or haven't done to you in another country is a pretty poor
argument for not going to war. There were a lot better ones against the war in Vietnam.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2016, 06:08:37 am by eggieguffer »


  • waygo0k
  • The Legend

    • 4136

    • September 27, 2011, 11:51:01 am
    • Chungnam
Re: Muhammed Ali has died
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2016, 06:23:08 am »
*Still not getting the point* whether deliberately or not.

Muhammad Ali was a huge part of the civil rights movement, and a vocal critic of white supremacy...and he was very much hated for it at the time.

His refusal to fight in Vietnam (ie fighting for Vietnamese "freedom") stems from his view that he and other black Americans were yet to have the "freedoms" they were being sent to give to others.

The civil rights act had only just been passed three years earlier, and lynchings were still a regular occurrence in the country at the time, along with segregation and outright displays of racism we cannot begin to imagine today.

How that can be a poor excuse, is lost on me.


Re: Muhammed Ali has died
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2016, 06:34:19 am »
*Still not getting the point* whether deliberately or not.

Muhammad Ali was a huge part of the civil rights movement, and a vocal critic of white supremacy...and he was very much hated for it at the time.

His refusal to fight in Vietnam (ie fighting for Vietnamese "freedom") stems from his view that he and other black Americans were yet to have the "freedoms" they were being sent to give to others.

The civil rights act had only just been passed three years earlier, and lynchings were still a regular occurrence in the country at the time, along with segregation and outright displays of racism we cannot begin to imagine today.

How that can be a poor excuse, is lost on me.

Sure if he'd said 'I refuse to fight for this current government due to their poor record on civil rights', I would have totally got it. I was just saying his argument was rambling.  I said talking about what individual Vietnamese had or hadn't done to him was a poor argument.

Anyway I thought he refused to fight because of his religion.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2016, 06:43:07 am by eggieguffer »


  • waygo0k
  • The Legend

    • 4136

    • September 27, 2011, 11:51:01 am
    • Chungnam
Re: Muhammed Ali has died
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2016, 07:03:56 am »
Maybe you should invent a time machine and go back to train him how to properly and eloquently voice his thoughts  :cheesy:

Like I said, most people get the symbolism of what he was saying.

Religion was one of Ali's reasons for refusal to fight. The religious organisation he was part of, Nation of Islam, was also a significant wing of the civil rights movement, with Malcom X being the face of the organisation and one of Ali's closest friends and confidants (and vice versa).

To try to differentiate and contrast between Ali's reasons for refusal to fight (religion, civil rights), is like trying to differentiate a green apple from a red one - they're both still apples.


Re: Muhammed Ali has died
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2016, 07:13:36 am »
I think if I invented a time machine I'd do something a bit more interesting than that.


Re: Muhammed Ali has died
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2016, 11:12:18 am »
Ali was one of the first "celebrity" sport satrs.  He revelled in the attention given by the media, and he realised that this attention could be directed at society as easy as it iwas being directed at him.  There was a civil rights act, but it was either failing or not being implemented.  So, he not only decided to make a stand, but to use his celebrity and influence to spread his message as far as he could.

He saw himslef as part of a community, and as such spoke for that community.  Black people didn't have a voice in most matters, and as such if they had refused to fight, no-one would have listened let alone cared.  By using the cameras following him all day, by using the interviews he was being pestered for, he not only explained his point, he let others know that this was a viable choice.

Let us not forget that the legallity and morality of the Vietnam war was questionable at the time, and that new evidence about "the Gulf of Tonkin incident" (the cause of American involvement in Vietnam) was a false event that manipulated the start of a war that led millions dead.

"It was originally claimed by the National Security Agency that a Second Gulf of Tonkin incident occurred on August 4, 1964, as another sea battle, but instead evidence was found of "Tonkin ghosts"[4] (false radar images) and not actual North Vietnamese torpedo boats. In the 2003 documentary The Fog of War, the former United States Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara admitted that the August 2 USS Maddox attack happened with no Defense Department response, but the August 4 Gulf of Tonkin attack never happened.[5]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident


Re: Muhammed Ali has died
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2016, 11:17:39 am »
Er... last I checked, he hasn't competed in a few decades.  The sport will continue to be in the crappy state it is in just fine without him.

I said nothing about boxing, i stated it was a sad day for all sports.  One doesn't have to be an active participant to have an impact on a/any sport.  Ali was a hero and inspiartion for millions of normal people around the world, as well as many sports starts, not just boxers.  His determination and fight was inspirational to other sport star.  If you don't think he had influenec look at all the tributes to him, not only from boxers, not only from sport stars, but from all walks of the human race.