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  • LIC
  • Expert Waygook

    • 849

    • February 15, 2019, 04:39:00 pm
    • NE Hemisphere
Reparations
« on: July 13, 2020, 12:03:32 pm »
There's lots of talk going on about reparations from the US government to Americans of African descent.

I'm foregoing the myriad of tangential logistical problems because I have 1 question. It's a big one.

Will paying out "X" $$$ solve the problem?



  • fka
  • Expert Waygook

    • 511

    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Reparations
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2020, 12:14:40 pm »
Most of the more serious reparations proposals don't involve paying out a fixed sum. They involve measures like housing subsidies and education grants. Paying out a fixed sum is what exists in the popular imagination, but that is unlikely to ever happen for all kinds of reasons.


  • LIC
  • Expert Waygook

    • 849

    • February 15, 2019, 04:39:00 pm
    • NE Hemisphere
Re: Reparations
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2020, 12:20:28 pm »
Fair enough fka, but will equalization subsidies and grants solve the problem?

ie: no more racial divide, no more us vs. them (barring the obvious nutjobs that will always exist no matter what happens)


  • stoat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1412

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Reparations
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2020, 01:03:21 pm »
Quote
Fair enough fka, but will equalization subsidies and grants solve the problem?


It won't solve the problem as far as BLM are concerned since they're demanding the overthrow of capitalism.


  • fka
  • Expert Waygook

    • 511

    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Reparations
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2020, 01:16:39 pm »
I think you need to be more definitive about what problem you're trying to solve, and even then, there are a huge amount of variables. African-Americans were formally excluded from certain forms of wealth accumulation long after slavery ended, resulting in a massive lag in access to the United States' collective assets (despite black labor being used to create those assets). Putting a precise economic value on this is very difficult, though, and the fact that formal exclusion no longer exists renders many people unaware of the legacy problem. Then you have all the issues about who would actually qualify for any benefits, which help to kill the conversation before it really gets started (Should reparations be means-tested? How strong does your ancestry claim have to be?). There have been attempts to work through these issues but a lot of people view the topic of reparations very simplistically (as the government taking money from white people and giving it to black people) so the efforts don't get very far.

A lot of people don't know that in 1988 the US government paid $20,000 each to surviving detainees of Japanese-American internment camps, over 80,000 people in total.
 
https://www.nytimes.com/1988/04/21/us/senate-votes-to-compensate-japanese-american-internees.html

Germany has also paid nearly $100billion in reparations to Holocaust survivors.

Logistical problems aside, it's pretty grim that no similar gestures were made to African-Americans. Even if it had been limited to  surviving victims of Jim Crow discrimination in the South, it would have been better than nothing, and could have helped to narrow the wealth gap in those states.

These days, the success of any policy would depend on a whole range of complicated variables, and I don't think anyone can speculate with confidence. As for my own position, it's evolved from "That's unfair to white people who had nothing to do with slavery" / "That will never work" to "There might very well be some sensible options on the table, but it's logistically complicated and politically toxic, so I'm skeptical that anyone will ever reach an agreement about it."
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 02:34:53 pm by fka »


  • LIC
  • Expert Waygook

    • 849

    • February 15, 2019, 04:39:00 pm
    • NE Hemisphere
Re: Reparations
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2020, 02:12:44 pm »
I'm trying to keep it simple. Which is in itself too simplistic. But, what I mean is this: will reparations make people happy. Let the past go. It's done. Today and tomorrow are what count. No more complaining about what happened. The board is erased and we are all starting anew.

Will reparations do this?


  • fka
  • Expert Waygook

    • 511

    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Reparations
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2020, 02:34:00 pm »
I don't think that's the goal of any reparations proposal that I've seen, so no, probably not. We still talk about the Japanese internment camps and the Holocaust, and with good reason.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4895

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Reparations
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2020, 02:44:58 pm »
Slavery ended in America ages ago. No one alive today was enslaved in cotton fields. Just their distant ancestors. They should thank their lucky stars their ancestors were shipped to America to be slaves there rather than continue to be enslaved in Africa by other Africans. Which is the better place to live? It's obviously the USA. Had the location of their slave ancestors not been changed they'd be living in the Congo now. Annual per capita GDP there: $501. USA: $67,426. That's 135 times as much. Huge difference.


  • tylerthegloob
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1384

    • September 28, 2016, 10:46:24 am
    • Busan
    more
Re: Reparations
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2020, 02:50:26 pm »
They should thank their lucky stars their ancestors were shipped to America to be slaves


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4895

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Reparations
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2020, 02:53:00 pm »
Yes. Correct. Some slaves stayed enslaved in Africa. Others changed locations. Africans enslaved other Africans. Africans sold some of the slaves.


  • fka
  • Expert Waygook

    • 511

    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Reparations
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2020, 02:56:15 pm »
Modern-day slaves working the UAE should thank their lucky stars that their descendants will live somewhere with such high per capita income.


  • CallinIn
  • Adventurer

    • 33

    • January 30, 2018, 01:57:54 am
    • USA
Re: Reparations
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2020, 03:01:30 pm »
They should thank their lucky stars their ancestors were shipped to America to be slaves there rather than continue to be enslaved in Africa by other Africans.

No. Just a firm no to this sentence. This is disgusting. I don't care how you try to justify this. My blood is boiling.


  • Colburnnn
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1058

    • August 10, 2015, 05:52:37 pm
    • South Korea
Re: Reparations
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2020, 03:03:39 pm »
We cannot change things that happened in the past, things were acceptable back then that are not now. Let's look forward instead of back. Reject racism, reject race-baiters, we are one.

I'll add to this, if the first thing you notice about someone when you meet them is their skin colour, you are part of the problem.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 03:06:40 pm by Colburnnn »
Haven't you got some pictures of birds to be jacking off to, son?

Colburnnn: Complains a lot, very sassy. Has a loudmouth.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4895

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Reparations
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2020, 03:06:46 pm »
I was quoted out of context. Include the whole sentence next time if spitting it potentially changes the perceived meaning.

Itís about being pissed your ancestors (who are not you) were enslaved ages ago not realizing that absent white people they still would have been enslaved.

Africans enslaved them. Africans sold them. The Congo is a bad place to live. The USA is far better. Slavery doesnít necessarily produce massive massive wealth. (As we can see with Congo.) Technological innovation does.


  • fka
  • Expert Waygook

    • 511

    • September 05, 2019, 06:37:44 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Reparations
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2020, 03:11:34 pm »
"Slavery happened a long time ago" is a really great example of how more serious attempts at addressing the legacy of structural inequality get derailed.

It's also indicative of how shallow the general engagement with this topic actually is. Imagine feeling confident enough to comment on it in a public forum, while thinking it's about "being pissed your ancestors (who are not you) were enslaved ages ago".
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 03:14:29 pm by fka »


  • stoat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1412

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Reparations
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2020, 03:15:34 pm »
It's part of the discussion, as the reparations paid for the holocaust and Japanese internment camps were to people who'd directly  suffered from them.


  • CO2
  • Waygook Lord

    • 5863

    • March 02, 2015, 03:41:14 pm
    • Uiwang
Re: Reparations
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2020, 03:17:41 pm »
L I.  I know the point you're trying to make, but Jesus, man.

That's not............. not how it works.

It's like if a woman was raped and the kid that came out cured cancer or something.

"See, getting raped wasn't so bad, your kid cured cancer! High five!"
The first thing to say is that this is definitely not pyramid selling, OK?


  • CallinIn
  • Adventurer

    • 33

    • January 30, 2018, 01:57:54 am
    • USA
Re: Reparations
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2020, 03:21:06 pm »
CO2 ,Thank you. I'm at a complete loss for words right now.


  • OnNut81
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1186

    • April 01, 2011, 03:01:41 pm
    • Anyang
Re: Reparations
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2020, 03:30:20 pm »
CO2 ,Thank you. I'm at a complete loss for words right now.

Don't be such a drama queen.  It's a poster on waygook.org  It's your kind of comments that add nothing to the discussion.  His comments were pretty clumsy but his ham-fisted point was that these people were going to be slaves anyways so they might as well have been slaves in the US.  Insensitive and certainly debatable but nothing there should get your blood boiling unless you're one of those type that read things hoping it will get their blood boiling. 


  • stoat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1412

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: Reparations
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2020, 03:37:18 pm »
yep