Read 11681 times

Racial Discrimination of Teachers: White and Black
« on: October 07, 2015, 06:00:03 am »
There are posts in the contract/job forum about the difficulty in getting a teaching job as a black teacher.

This topic is being shared to shed some understanding about this issue. It not a scientific or researched comment so it doesn't cover all areas. Rather, it is just another perspective to consider - please fact check details.

First thing to know:

Korea does not have an anti-discrimination law. They do have the National Human Rights Commission and the National Human Rights Commission Act. The UN has urged Korea to adopt an anti-discrimination law. Efforts have failed due to conservatives within Korean society and politicians.

http://www.ohchr.org/en/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=15147&LangID=E

http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20141006001064

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2013/04/202_134386.html

https://globalvoices.org/2013/04/13/south-korean-anti-discrimination-law-faces-conservative-pushback/

https://medium.com/@benkwagner/it-s-high-time-that-south-korean-courts-recognize-the-multiethnic-character-of-contemporary-korean-bf6ff142a49e

http://www.koreaobserver.com/nearly-all-foreigners-victim-of-discrimination-in-seoul-29001/

Even if a law exists, enforcing it will be a hurdle because the general social acceptance of discrimination has been embedded for so long.

Here's a quote from one of the articles:

"An official at the National Human Rights Commission of Korea acknowledged that there is no anti-discrimination law in Korea and it would be difficult to take any punitive action in most of the cases.

She, however, hinted that Sean has a good chance to shut down the hakwons, or private academies that practiced racial discrimination against him.

“This was a clear violation of the National Human Rights Commission Act which stipulates that people should not be discriminated based on their race or gender,” an official said.

“We cannot directly punish those hakwons but we can make recommendations to government authorities, in this case, the Office of Education, so that they can urge problematic hakwons to stop their discriminatory practices or even consider revoking their license.”

http://www.koreaobserver.com/american-rejected-for-job-in-korea-because-of-being-black-24676/



Second Set of Things to Know:

Some black residents or visitors have described as being treated better in Korea than in their home society. Some have said they experience less racism. They have and continue to get teaching jobs. And sometimes they don't due to discrimination.

There are Korean citizens who are curious to know and understand black persons due to lack of exposure and unfamiliarity. They will be friendly with them and treat them well without discrimination.

And then there is the job discrimination (which prompted this forum topic) towards whites - Koreans lean away from blacks and other dark skin tones. There are cases of young Koreans racially making fun of the physical features or appearance of a black person as they pass by.

Many Koreans will ignorantly or knowingly and passively discriminate. Koreans will not aggressively discriminate in front of the black person's face.

However, Koreans are not racist towards blacks (and other dark ethnic groups) in the hatred sense. As a collective culture and society, Koreans are not going to throw objects at a black person, burn their home, curse at them in public, shoot with a gun (though citizens cannot own one), stab a person on the street, secretly lynch them, write on public spaces that they should all go home, round them up in concentration camps...you get the idea.  These have occurred throughout American history on American soil starting with the Native Americans and people of the First Nations, Europeans on Europeans, Europeans (whites) on blacks, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Spanish speaking groups, Muslims, and so forth. You will find racial hate crimes in America far more than you would in Korea towards blacks.


And now background to consider:

Teachers from the west - the native English speaking countries - have been educated enough to believe that racism and discrimination are wrong. In practice, the Korean society keeps it as status quo and make it socially acceptable.

Physical appearance and beauty are a big deal in Korea. The chance is going to be similar to a white person in getting the same job if the black person is strikingly beautiful/handsome like a model, has big double-eye lids with long lashes, smooth and clean skin, pointed nose, thin, speaks good Korean, and has a dark light skin tone (like half black and half Asian) as opposed to black tone. It is offensive and the reality in Korea.

The society is not trained and educated to be politically correct and socially conscious about it. They became more familiar with white people and built associations to what they represent based on historical events in the 19th and 20th centuries. Excluding other Asians, they have less experience in dealing with other ethnic colors and therefore are uncomfortable with what they're not familiar with. Kids at hagwons are less familiar with blacks than whites because of what they're exposed to in Korean society and media. They get scared. There are Koreans who also feel the same way. Their judgements and attitudes are based on ignorance and lack of education. Koreans will also choose white applicants over foreign Koreans, not just blacks. Some do not consider foreign Koreans and foreign Asians as truly native English speakers. They are far behind on the issue of race and discrimination compared to a country like America where there are lots of laws and PCisms.

This may be incorrect, but the commentary below is something to consider to help understand the situation and not get upset towards Koreans:

Throughout history, Korea has been a homogenized culture and society. The contemporary face of Korea became more multi-ethnic and globalized in the past 30 years - heightened in the past 20 years.

At the same time Korea is trying to be globalized - hosted international sporting events such as the Olympics and Asia Games; perceives itself to be upleveled on the world stage after hosting the 2010 G20 Summit; takes pride in reversing their role from receiving international donations to now donating to developing countries; increased enrollment of international students; and so on - it has yet to create anti-discrimination laws because of concerns among the conservative interest groups and politicians.

The government has spent a lot of money and time putting on a global face but less dedication on the civil and social domestic issues. That global face is one of the means towards strengthening the country's economy. Without going deep into history, if we were to just look at what happened after the Korean War, you will see why racism and discrimination are ongoing issues. After the Korean War, it was just a poor country. The people and government worked hard to rebuild themselves. They improved rapidly through 60 years, a very short window of time. Economic progress and getting globalized went so fast that the social matters were not able to catch up; impact on social issues were not addressed as fast. The social issues have always lagged behind, discrimination/racism being among them.

Before the Korean War, Korean politicians and diplomats pretty much dealt with white people from western countries. Understand also that Korea lived under an isolation policy before the Japanese occupation. Most outsiders they dealt with were Asians.

Apart from these, the Christians and missionaries that came in the 1800s and 1900s were white. Now there is a large population of Christians in what used to be mainly be Buddhists. They associate Christianity with white people because the historical figures were white and the missionaries were white.

Korea got freed from Japan in 1945 after America bombed Hiroshima. Then the Korean War happened and America helped South Korea. More Koreans became exposed to America due to these two wars - the way they looked, and their lifestyle. Americans appeared rich, beautiful with big double-lid eyes and pointed nose, successful, lived with material comforts, made a lot of advancements in education; Americans had this aspirational appeal among the Koreans who wanted a better life for themselves. So waves of them went to America after the 1965 Immigration Act was passed in America.

Due to America's relationship with the Korean government from these two wars, Korea imported a lot of American goods and media, there were American army bases. They got very familiar with America and Europe and associated aspirational appeal with white people. During this mental association, understand that Korean citizens were not permitted to travel to other countries unless there was a special reason. They were legally allowed to go on leisure travels abroad at some point just before or around the time Millenials began to be born. A large volume of travelers naturally visited the Americas, Europe, and Asia. Understand also that students are learning arts and culture and associate classics with white Europeans and North Americans.

The double-eyelid surgery phenomena in Korea was due to seeing images of American and other western women with big eyes after being exposed to them during World War 2 and Korean War. They saw images of white people. The double-eye lid, white skin tone, and pointed nose became part of the fixation on the standard of beauty in Korea. So all this "white" exposure was blending into Korean society. In modern times, Koreans will say they are not doing this to look white - they are doing it to look pretty. They do not know the historical root of where the modern Korean cultural standard of beauty came from. There are some Koreans who have not traveled to America before and think America is mainly white people, naturally so when you live in a homogenous culture and mentality. Korea is a group-oriented culture. They follow what their social spheres believe in.

[Waygo0k posted this link The first double eye-lid surgery in Korea was inducted by a very racist US military surgeon:  http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20150911000982]

Associations with dark skin people. It all began with the media. Korean-Americans in the 1960s to present (baby-boomer generation) generally saw negative stereotypes of blacks in American media - civil rights issues and Martin Luther King, gangs, gun fights, crime, Rodney King riots, outspoken black leaders, Black Panthers, low income communities, slavery. They work hard and come home to see these things on TV and newspapers. Then they read or hear about Koreans being harmed by local blacks. All of these were presented with a sense of hostility and anger within the black community by the media. This with images of people who have bigger body frames compared to their small Asian body frame, strong and loud voices...they would be nervous, scared, and doubtful around blacks. All these exposures painted a negative association with the black skin tone.  It is wrong, but that was the reality. These perceptions crossed over into Korea. Over time, perceptions improved by the Korean American community through education, relationships, and understanding. There is more understanding and appreciation beginning with Generation X. 

The unfavorable perceptions crossed over into Korea. In Korea, while these things were happening in America, the people began to see more TV programs that were international related, perhaps beginning in the 1980s. Images of dark skin people were usually from from Africa, India, and hip hop. Aside from travel episodes, they saw images that created conditions for them to associate poverty, struggle, disease, civil wars, disadvantaged, hunger, and/or primitive living with the image of dark skin tone people (Africans).

Given all these narrow images they have been exposed to by the media, stereotypes formed. Many Korean parents want their kids to marry Koreans, other Asians or whites (in this order) and no blacks. Some even tell them never to marry someone who is black. If there is a relationship, they get furious, feel shame, embarrassed, and have to save face in social situations with other Koreans - they'll hide the fact their children are dating or married to a black person.

The physical features of Africans are different from Asian features - seeing them on TV and being in contact with a real person face-to-face gives Koreans a sense of strangeness because it is unfamiliar to them. They have been so used to white and Asian features. One student said that she would be more scared to talk to a black person than a white person - keep in mind that there are Koreans who are too shy to speak English to foreigners in general, even if they are white and are familiar with their features. This multiplies with someone whose skin tone and features are not what they're used to. Imagine how it feels for a kindy or elementary kid at a hagwon.

With Indians, they also associate with images of hunger, slums, poverty, farmers. 

Overall, aspirational images were normally connected to white skin and less than that were linked to images of dark skin tone. Korean parents want what is best for their kids. They associate white people with aspirational qualities and images so they want white native English teachers for their children. If you want to change how parents think about blacks, you would have to change the mindsets of the mothers because they are generally the CEOs (chief education officer) in the household. When it stops mattering to them, then hagwons may hire more black or other dark skin teachers...or maybe not.

Elementary school kids don't know how to be around an ethnic student. They have not been educated enough about it and it is unfamiliar to them living in a homogenous culture. There are non-profit organizations that help ethnic residents and citizens to assimilate in Korean society, but it can be hard for ethnic kids in general...even those who are half black and half Korean. In lay society, common Koreans associate ethnic people with low-paying jobs from poorer countries.

Generation X in America and Korea embraced rap and hip-hop music and style, like other youths around the world. In Korea, they made their own hip-hop, rap, and R&B style. Though there is racism, Koreans have embraced half Korean and half black individuals who they consider to be very successful and give Koreans a good name.  Insooni is considered the top R&B diva in Korea. Hines Ward is a retired NFL player. They'll embrace blacks who are fluent Korean speakers appearing on an entertainment program. But not with jobs.

The people in Korea have not had enough opportunities to engage with and get used to blacks. Of course having an anti-discrimination law would enable it. But it can also be enabled by education at schools and at home.

Koreans will get deterrred by incidents such as what happened about 3-5 years ago. A  black teacher was yelling and had a threatening presence towards a woman and a senior citizen in a public bus. Both couldn't speak each other's language. It appeared as though the incident was started by the black teacher. The senior citizen said a word in Korean that sounded like the N word to the teacher when in fact that is not what the elderly was saying. It hit the news and the video went viral. It only cemented negative images of blacks among the Korean society and becomes another reason for hagwons to not hire black teachers. Why would Korean mothers want their children exposed to that?

Human and civil rights became more important in the 20th century. Because of the push for change and leadership among the people, America has a lot of laws and PCisms around racism and discrimination (regardless of its flaws). Though such rights are important for Koreans, they have not been pushed by the collective society as much in Korea in comparison. Social issues still lag far behind such as special needs students, the disabled in schools, to name a few. More students' rights were given in 2012 when they officially made it illegal for teachers to physically discipline students. For foreigners, this kind of law is a bit late. Disabled and special needs students are not given quality education like normal students at public schools. An American educated teacher who taught special students discussed these issues with me and the challenges he faces in wanting to do more for them. It comes down to lack of education and understanding about special needs and disabled students among the Korean society to overcome negative stigma, shame, embarrassment, and social status associated with having these children as parents.

Public schools, its teachers, and universities with an international focus want their students to learn about global diversity and culture. But that effort is handicapped by the government because there is a lack of strong anti-discrimination laws and lack of education about race and multi-culturalism in public schools. There needs to be a strong group of teachers from native English speaking countries filing a class complaint to the Ministry of Education and National Human Rights Commission. Koreans are not going to do it if it is not relevant for them. But it only matters to dark skin teachers in Korea so the foreign teachers and other interest groups will need to get organized and make a strong push. But it must all start with individual teachers filing complaints.

If complaints are not issued officially against hagwons, then their license cannot be revoked or businesses shut down. The fact that hagwons have been getting away with it is a testament to not enough individuals filing a complaint and just leaving it to status quo. So the teachers have to start taking action. When hagwons get closed down and this becomes a phenomena, it will hit the national news and added traction can start happening. It may put pressure on those connected to past and current efforts in passing the anti-discrimination law. But the law won't pass until conservative interest groups stop blocking it out of their concern for other discrimination issues not related to race. 


This topic was created after reviewing this post:
http://www.waygook.org/index.php/topic,90687.msg573955.html#msg573955
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 06:38:00 am by kindenglishteacher1 »


Re: Racial Discrimination of Teachers: White and Black
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2015, 06:57:57 am »
It's a tough one. An anti discrimination law would simply stop hagwan owners from saying they don't want to employ black people, would it actually stop them from discriminating? Also if there's a law about employing black people shouldn't there also be a law about specifying a female teacher? Or discriminating against older people, or nationalities? How much should the state be involved in dictating who someone hires or not anyway? How much of the way countries in the West employ people is based on the anti-discrinination laws these days and how much is based on what's socially acceptable? Did not discrininating become socially acceptable as a result of the anti-discrimination laws or other factors?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 07:01:27 am by eggieguffer »


Re: Racial Discrimination of Teachers: White and Black
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2015, 07:42:07 am »
The anti discrimination law is so difficult to pass because there are so many different things that are discriminatory. Many will go on record being discriminatory against certain things like sexual orientation, but not on other things like your father's social status. Another issue is the elite like to remain elite. Then there are priorities, at the bottom of the list of ways to fix this society is helping the foreign teacher who has been discriminated against. Perhaps they could start with pensions for the old people collecting card board or doing more to assist desperate immigrants first. I'm not saying the issue of discrimination against foreign English teachers isn't an important issue, I'm just saying there are bigger fish to fry.


Re: Racial Discrimination of Teachers: White and Black
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2015, 08:06:22 am »
Time and positive exposure. You can change the laws but, like eggieguffer said, you can't force a change in mentality. Keep coming and keep showing a positive face, that's what I reckon. In time some acceptance will develop and perhaps even some camaraderie (in time).

Like you said, historical events have given Koreans increased exposure to white people, and some positive associations. Because of that, it is possible for me to easily get a job here in Korea. That said, the seat next to me on the bus is always the last to be filled, and sometimes stays empty the whole journey.

The "us and them" mentality is still strong in Korea, but they are slowly moving in the right direction. Making laws to force change will just create resentment, in my opinion.


  • cjszk
  • Expert Waygook

    • 894

    • August 23, 2013, 10:29:05 am
    • Seoul
Re: Racial Discrimination of Teachers: White and Black
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2015, 08:07:25 am »
OP, your post tries to sell a lot, and makes an entertaining read for a troller~~

You have many points, but I feel that some of those points come off as spineless in your post because there is no hard concrete evidence provided with it~

Quote
The double-eyelid surgery phenomena in Korea was due to seeing images of American and other western women with big eyes after being exposed to them during World War 2 and Korean War. They saw images of white people. The double-eye lid, white skin tone, and pointed nose became part of the fixation on the standard of beauty in Korea. So all this "white" exposure was blending into Korean society. There are some Koreans who have not traveled to America before and think America is mainly white people. When you look at the conditions they lived in as described, you can understand why.

This one in particular I found a bit difficult to agree with on. Keep in mind many Koreans are also born with double eyelids too, so on so forth. Not to mention white-skin has always been exalted even before the arrival of caucasians and caucasian noses can be viewed as unnattractive if they are too long- it's the high noses they like. All-in-all I get the message you are trying to convey, but do cite some sources with a critical post.


  • waygo0k
  • The Legend

    • 4451

    • September 27, 2011, 11:51:01 am
    • Chungnam
Re: Racial Discrimination of Teachers: White and Black
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2015, 08:15:53 am »
So basically the same excuses we've been hearing for the past 3-4 decades.

Social change is slow and takes time, we understand and appreciate that. However, if Korea truly wants to change and become a legitimate member of the globalised world, its normal citizens will have to start holding each other accountable.

I do admit there has been some change over the years. I honestly believe it is much easier being black/dark-skinned in Korea today than say 10-15 years ago. However, my main worry still lies with those of korean heritage who have dark skin, and how they are indoctrinated to hate their features and feel inferior.

Of course, all the prejudice and bigotry hypocritically flies out of the window once the dark person with Korean ancestry gets some positive fame, with the hope that fame can get the country some positive PR (Hines Ward, Benson Henderson, In Soo Ni to name a few).

I appreciate the effort OP made to write this post, but I feel much deeper analysis and reasoning is needed.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 08:19:13 am by waygo0k »


  • waygo0k
  • The Legend

    • 4451

    • September 27, 2011, 11:51:01 am
    • Chungnam
Re: Racial Discrimination of Teachers: White and Black
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2015, 08:22:42 am »
OP, your post tries to sell a lot, and makes an entertaining read for a troller~~

You have many points, but I feel that some of those points come off as spineless in your post because there is no hard concrete evidence provided with it~

Quote
The double-eyelid surgery phenomena in Korea was due to seeing images of American and other western women with big eyes after being exposed to them during World War 2 and Korean War. They saw images of white people. The double-eye lid, white skin tone, and pointed nose became part of the fixation on the standard of beauty in Korea. So all this "white" exposure was blending into Korean society. There are some Koreans who have not traveled to America before and think America is mainly white people. When you look at the conditions they lived in as described, you can understand why.

This one in particular I found a bit difficult to agree with on. Keep in mind many Koreans are also born with double eyelids too, so on so forth. Not to mention white-skin has always been exalted even before the arrival of caucasians and caucasian noses can be viewed as unnattractive if they are too long- it's the high noses they like. All-in-all I get the message you are trying to convey, but do cite some sources with a critical post.

The first double eye-lid surgery in Korea was inducted by a very racist US military surgeon

http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20150911000982


Re: Racial Discrimination of Teachers: White and Black
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2015, 09:10:10 am »
To add to the two fellers before. Being pale is considered a sign of wealth. Pale skin means that you don't have to work the fields and break your back in the sun. It's long been a sign of status in many, many cultures.

Korea is only a generation or two away from being a largely agricultural society. As the country grows wealthier, and more people move into service industries and the like, the emphasis on pale skin as a sign of prestige will decrease (probably). Hence why tanned skin was popular in western countries in the latter half of the 20th century. The sign of wealth eventually changed from "must spend time out in the sun" to "have the luxury of spending time doing nothing in the sun".

Certainly the previous few generations saw the pastiness of white people and inferred that they must be rich enough not to till their own land. It won't be long before that association dwindles.

Will that mean that black people are more accepted? God knows, but it may get rid of the idea that they are poor and less affluent than white people - a view I have heard expressed here.   


Re: Racial Discrimination of Teachers: White and Black
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2015, 09:17:35 am »
South Korea is a microcosm for the whole world, our attitudes don't evolve nearly as fast as our technology.


Re: Racial Discrimination of Teachers: White and Black
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2015, 09:39:31 am »
Koreans see your looks as indicative of your inner character. When they say "teacher is handsome/pretty" they aren't saying you are handsome or pretty, they are saying they think you are a good person.

This is why they get plastic surgery and avoid the sun, because they literally think it will make them a better person. And they see dark skin as "dirty."


  • stan rogers
  • Expert Waygook

    • 577

    • August 03, 2015, 04:16:11 am
    • Jeju Island
Re: Racial Discrimination of Teachers: White and Black
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2015, 02:50:15 pm »
Why should Koreans feel the need to follow a foreign way? Why should they change? Just because some foreigner who feels culturally superior said so?

When a bunch of foreigners go around telling Koreans what to do and how it ought to be, it is often perceived as cultural imperialism.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 02:53:43 pm by stan rogers »


Re: Racial Discrimination of Teachers: White and Black
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2015, 02:57:39 pm »
Why should Koreans feel the need to follow a foreign way? Why should they change? Just because some foreigner who feels culturally superior said so?

When a bunch of foreigners go around telling Koreans what to do and how it ought to be, it is often perceived as cultural imperialism.

There are concepts people in the West feel go beyond culture and are closer to basic human rights. Things like democracy and egalitarianism. Believing that these should be available to everyone is not cultural imperialism.


  • stan rogers
  • Expert Waygook

    • 577

    • August 03, 2015, 04:16:11 am
    • Jeju Island
Re: Racial Discrimination of Teachers: White and Black
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2015, 03:17:19 pm »
Why should Koreans feel the need to follow a foreign way? Why should they change? Just because some foreigner who feels culturally superior said so?

When a bunch of foreigners go around telling Koreans what to do and how it ought to be, it is often perceived as cultural imperialism.

There are concepts people in the West feel go beyond culture and are closer to basic human rights. Things like democracy and egalitarianism. Believing that these should be available to everyone is not cultural imperialism.

Sure it is. The cultural wiring of your brain simply doesn't allow you to see it any other way. It's ok, they know you can't help it.


Re: Racial Discrimination of Teachers: White and Black
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2015, 04:35:23 pm »
Why should Koreans feel the need to follow a foreign way? Why should they change? Just because some foreigner who feels culturally superior said so?

When a bunch of foreigners go around telling Koreans what to do and how it ought to be, it is often perceived as cultural imperialism.

There are concepts people in the West feel go beyond culture and are closer to basic human rights. Things like democracy and egalitarianism. Believing that these should be available to everyone is not cultural imperialism.

Sure it is. The cultural wiring of your brain simply doesn't allow you to see it any other way. It's ok, they know you can't help it.

Reminds me of a story about the British army's commander in chief of India in the mid 19th century, Charles Napier. When he tried to put a stop to Hindus throwing widows on the funeral pyre when their husbands died the locals said it was cultural imperialism and he should respect their customs.  He said

'Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs."

In the end this put a stop to the practice, which I guess you think was the wrong thing to do, no? Maybe they'd still be doing it today if some of us didn't have a certain cultural wiring in our brains.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 04:44:34 pm by eggieguffer »


  • Mr C
  • The Legend

    • 2609

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Racial Discrimination of Teachers: White and Black
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2015, 06:33:25 pm »
Why should Koreans feel the need to follow a foreign way? Why should they change? Just because some foreigner who feels culturally superior said so?

When a bunch of foreigners go around telling Koreans what to do and how it ought to be, it is often perceived as cultural imperialism.

There are concepts people in the West feel go beyond culture and are closer to basic human rights. Things like democracy and egalitarianism. Believing that these should be available to everyone is not cultural imperialism.

Sure it is. The cultural wiring of your brain simply doesn't allow you to see it any other way. It's ok, they know you can't help it.

Reminds me of a story about the British army's commander in chief of India in the mid 19th century, Charles Napier. When he tried to put a stop to Hindus throwing widows on the funeral pyre when their husbands died the locals said it was cultural imperialism and he should respect their customs.  He said

'Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs."

In the end this put a stop to the practice, which I guess you think was the wrong thing to do, no? Maybe they'd still be doing it today if some of us didn't have a certain cultural wiring in our brains.
Yes, British colonial rule in India is a fine example of superior Western culture and morality.  Why, their main concern was the improvement of the Indian peoples, especially in the areas of democracy and egalitarianism.  Everything they did in India was to promote basic human rights.  Good example!


Re: Racial Discrimination of Teachers: White and Black
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2015, 06:41:07 pm »
Quote
Yes, British colonial rule in India is a fine example of superior Western culture and morality.  Why, their main concern was the improvement of the Indian peoples, especially in the areas of democracy and egalitarianism.  Everything they did in India was to promote basic human rights.  Good example!

If I had cited British colonial rule in general as a good example then your sarcastic comments might be justified but it's fairly obvious to anyone with a brain that I didn't. I was talking about one specific person carrying out one specific act at a certain time. Why not contribute to the discussion by saying whether you think that Charles Napier was justified or not and leave the tedious anti-Imperialist western guilt trip stuff aside for a moment?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 06:57:32 pm by eggieguffer »


  • Mr C
  • The Legend

    • 2609

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Racial Discrimination of Teachers: White and Black
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2015, 07:40:28 pm »
Quote
Yes, British colonial rule in India is a fine example of superior Western culture and morality.  Why, their main concern was the improvement of the Indian peoples, especially in the areas of democracy and egalitarianism.  Everything they did in India was to promote basic human rights.  Good example!

If I had cited British colonial rule in general as a good example then your sarcastic comments might be justified but it's fairly obvious to anyone with a brain that I didn't. I was talking about one specific person carrying out one specific act at a certain time. Why not contribute to the discussion by saying whether you think that Charles Napier was justified or not and leave the tedious anti-Imperialist western guilt trip stuff aside for a moment?
Look at this part of thread and your contribution to it.  Your example for Western moriality and the spreading of democracy and egalitarianism was from British colonial rule in India. To decide if Napier was justified in this action, and whether he was spreading democracy and egalitarianism, or in any way demonstrating Western concern for human rights, we need to know context. 

So i went and spent a few minutes reading about Napier.  He wasn't all-out evil bastard, but his troops were often noted for their brutality.  Once sent to quell an insurrection, he decided, on his own ambition, to conquer the entire Sindh Province, killing thousands along the way.  I think it is safe to say he did not try to stop the widow burning out of concern for the human rights of Hindu widows.  He did it to crush the will of the people under his rule, and reduce the power of the Hindu leaders. 

So, no, I don't think he was justified.  I don't think he had any business being in India. My "sarcastic comments" will stand in their entirety. 


Re: Racial Discrimination of Teachers: White and Black
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2015, 08:04:39 pm »
Quote
Yes, British colonial rule in India is a fine example of superior Western culture and morality.  Why, their main concern was the improvement of the Indian peoples, especially in the areas of democracy and egalitarianism.  Everything they did in India was to promote basic human rights.  Good example!

If I had cited British colonial rule in general as a good example then your sarcastic comments might be justified but it's fairly obvious to anyone with a brain that I didn't. I was talking about one specific person carrying out one specific act at a certain time. Why not contribute to the discussion by saying whether you think that Charles Napier was justified or not and leave the tedious anti-Imperialist western guilt trip stuff aside for a moment?
Look at this part of thread and your contribution to it.  Your example for Western moriality and the spreading of democracy and egalitarianism was from British colonial rule in India. To decide if Napier was justified in this action, and whether he was spreading democracy and egalitarianism, or in any way demonstrating Western concern for human rights, we need to know context. 

So i went and spent a few minutes reading about Napier.  He wasn't all-out evil bastard, but his troops were often noted for their brutality.  Once sent to quell an insurrection, he decided, on his own ambition, to conquer the entire Sindh Province, killing thousands along the way.  I think it is safe to say he did not try to stop the widow burning out of concern for the human rights of Hindu widows.  He did it to crush the will of the people under his rule, and reduce the power of the Hindu leaders. 

So, no, I don't think he was justified.  I don't think he had any business being in India. My "sarcastic comments" will stand in their entirety.

My example of Napier was to illustrate a situation where a country with a more advanced system with regards to one aspect of civil rights comes up against one where civil rights are being abused in the name of culture. Of course you can rake up all sorts of stuff about Mid- nineteenth century colonialists which look bad in a modern context, it's a pretty easy target. If you're going to put everything in a 21st century context we won't learn anything from history. E.g. George Washington owned slaves so anything he said about anything is wrong. If you prefer a more modern example, why does the West rail against genital mutilation, it's part of certain cultures after all? The answer is because we think we know best and I don't have a problem with that. Do you?  Just as I don't have a problem with Western countres telling countries like Korea they should be less racist or countries like Russia they should be less homophobic. Do you?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 08:35:58 pm by eggieguffer »


Re: Racial Discrimination of Teachers: White and Black
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2015, 08:57:24 pm »
Why should Koreans feel the need to follow a foreign way? Why should they change? Just because some foreigner who feels culturally superior said so?

When a bunch of foreigners go around telling Koreans what to do and how it ought to be, it is often perceived as cultural imperialism.

But it's ok for them to express ancient racist attitudes they learned from the Chinese and Japanese. Koreans think they have the right to view foreigners the way the Japanese used to see Koreans.


  • Mr C
  • The Legend

    • 2609

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Racial Discrimination of Teachers: White and Black
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2015, 09:05:21 pm »
Quote
Yes, British colonial rule in India is a fine example of superior Western culture and morality.  Why, their main concern was the improvement of the Indian peoples, especially in the areas of democracy and egalitarianism.  Everything they did in India was to promote basic human rights.  Good example!

If I had cited British colonial rule in general as a good example then your sarcastic comments might be justified but it's fairly obvious to anyone with a brain that I didn't. I was talking about one specific person carrying out one specific act at a certain time. Why not contribute to the discussion by saying whether you think that Charles Napier was justified or not and leave the tedious anti-Imperialist western guilt trip stuff aside for a moment?
Look at this part of thread and your contribution to it.  Your example for Western moriality and the spreading of democracy and egalitarianism was from British colonial rule in India. To decide if Napier was justified in this action, and whether he was spreading democracy and egalitarianism, or in any way demonstrating Western concern for human rights, we need to know context. 

So i went and spent a few minutes reading about Napier.  He wasn't all-out evil bastard, but his troops were often noted for their brutality.  Once sent to quell an insurrection, he decided, on his own ambition, to conquer the entire Sindh Province, killing thousands along the way.  I think it is safe to say he did not try to stop the widow burning out of concern for the human rights of Hindu widows.  He did it to crush the will of the people under his rule, and reduce the power of the Hindu leaders. 

So, no, I don't think he was justified.  I don't think he had any business being in India. My "sarcastic comments" will stand in their entirety.

My example of Napier was to illustrate a situation where a country with a more advanced system with regards to one aspect of civil rights comes up against one where civil rights are being abused in the name of culture.
No, it isn't.  It is a case where a Western Imperialist is using his "more advanced system of civil rights" to deflate the subject group.  Napier's action probably made him happy that he was saving some widows' lives, but that's not the main reason he did it.
Quote

Of course you can rake up all sorts of stuff about Mid- nineteenth century colonialists which look bad in a modern context, it's a pretty easy target. Saying he didn't have any business being in India in the frst place is just a cop out. If you prefer a more modern example, why does the West rail against genital mutilation, it's part of their culture after all? The answer is because we think we know best and I don't have a problem with that. Do you?  Just as I don't have a problem with Western countres telling countries like Korea they should be less racist or countries like Russia they should be less homophobic. Do you?
You were using the story of Napier to illustrate that "There are concepts people in the West feel go beyond culture and are closer to basic human rights."

It doesn't.  In fact it does quite the opposite.  Mainly, his moral rectitude served to demoralize and subjugate the Indians.  By now, that should be "fairly obvious to anyone with a brain," as you put it.

Genital mutilation and burning widows are both very different from Korean xenophobia.  You can outlaw and punish the one, but you can't make people more open and less fearful--except over time. 

Brown v Board of Education was 1953; today there are still millions of Americans who want their schools segregated--they can't use that language anymore, though, so they have code terms, a so-called "dog whistle".  In England, UKIP won 12% of the vote on a xenophobia platform.

Perhaps race relations have improved in the West, but there's still a long ways to go.  I am reminded about the mote in your brother's eye and the beam in your own....