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  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4891

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #7260 on: February 05, 2020, 11:19:00 am »
I mean, for one thing your entire sample is male.

Males are way more likely to stay in Korea long term than females.

Incidentally, I'm reminded that you're one such person who has lived in Korea a long time but can't speak Korean well.

I met tons of people in Korea, including some who have stayed a long time.

It's extremely uncommon to meet a Westerner conversant in the language, and that holds true among those here for over two decades.


  • oglop
  • The Legend

    • 3822

    • August 25, 2011, 07:24:54 pm
    • Seoul
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #7261 on: February 05, 2020, 11:26:33 am »
most foreigners probabaly learn korean well. but most foreingers aren't english teachers. those who work all day with koreans (factory workers, etc) most likely speak great korean

i'm guessing most westerns married to koreans don't speak korean fluently. that's just from my own experience


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4891

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #7262 on: February 05, 2020, 11:36:50 am »
Seems like Westerners married to Koreans would have great motivation to learn the language, knowing that they are now connected to the country, in laws who don't speak English, etc.

But most, including you, can't speak Korean well.

Most "professors" with a Korean wife and sometimes even Korean kids can't converse in Korean. Even if they've been in Korea 20+ years.

That's definitely been my experience.   


Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #7263 on: February 05, 2020, 11:38:51 am »


most foreigners probabaly learn korean well. but most foreingers aren't english teachers. those who work all day with koreans (factory workers, etc) most likely speak great korean

i'm guessing most westerns married to koreans don't speak korean fluently. that's just from my own experience

These are valid statements.

But there's a huge difference between being fluent and not being able to speak above a beginner level. I'm far from fluent, but I can watch and understand a lot of Korean TV (the news is usually too hard for me, though) and converse with my in-laws who don't speak any English at all. Like, yeah, obviously, the majority of western foreigners here aren't fluent.

Waygook.org user L I can't even figure out what he wants to say, anyways.

We have:
Virtually all Western English teachers who've been here for 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 years can't speak Korean at all beyond low level beginner basics.

Then he revises a bit:
So yeah, most Western English teachers who've been in Korea more than ten years are surprisingly bad at the language. Nowhere near fluent.

So, what is he arguing? That most western English teachers aren't fluent? Or that western English teachers can't speak Korean beyond a beginner level, despite having lived here for a long time?



  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4891

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #7264 on: February 05, 2020, 11:42:30 am »
Buzz off.

To answer your nitpicking I quantified above beginner as above beginner on the TOPIK.

You and other longtermers  wouldn't be able to do that.

That's  objective and true.


  • tylerthegloob
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1373

    • September 28, 2016, 10:46:24 am
    • Busan
    more
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #7265 on: February 05, 2020, 12:16:16 pm »
Buzz off.

To answer your nitpicking I quantified above beginner as above beginner on the TOPIK.

You and other longtermers  wouldn't be able to do that.

That's  objective and true.

i got level 3 which is technically intermediate. texaschicken got level 3 or 4? im sure some others have gotten at least level 3. i guess i don't know many long-termers though


  • Mister Tim
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1707

    • September 08, 2013, 10:33:54 am
    • SK
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #7266 on: February 05, 2020, 12:24:57 pm »
I wouldn't be shocked if a fair percentage of long-term westerners (perhaps even a majority) can't speak more than basic Korean, but it wouldn't be because Korean is prohibitively difficult. It's more difficult for native English speakers to learn than something like Spanish would be, but it isn't impossible.

If the DoD can teach people to an intermediate fluency level (or higher) in 18 months of intensive study, a long-term resident can do it over the course of 5+ years of afternoon self-study and being surrounded by the language everywhere they go.

When someone says they haven't learned more because Korean is too hard, what they're really saying is they've haven't learned more because they aren't willing to put in the effort. I'm not making a value judgement there, though. Lord knows my Korean isn't as good as it should be, given how long I've been here myself. Everyone has their reasons.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4891

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #7267 on: February 05, 2020, 12:27:51 pm »
Tyler.

I'm pretty sure TexasChicken got TOPIK level 2, which is high beginner.

You said you got TOPIK level 3, which is low intermediate.

No one else is claiming that in this thread so I guess you're the highest.

Hopefully you're telling the truth.

I've met many liars and bullsh*tters in Korea; dunno about you.

So yeah, above beginner level is exceedingly rare, including among those who have been in Korea a long time.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4891

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #7268 on: February 05, 2020, 12:38:36 pm »
If the DoD can teach people to an intermediate fluency level (or higher) in 18 months of intensive study, a long-term resident can do it over the course of 5+ years of afternoon self-study and being surrounded by the language everywhere they go.

Not necessarily.  The people chosen for that scored extremely high on an aptitude test. (99th percentile?) Meaning they have language learning talent. Then they study 10 hours a day. (Most is outside the classroom.) Some don't make it and fail out. I met a guy who did the program. He was doing Arabic. Told me it's damn near the hardest language; only Korean had a reputation for being harder. I guess about the same in terms of difficulty.

Getting good at Korean has a high opportunity cost. With no guarantee of success in my opinion.

And I guess some longtermers are lazy too could be part of it.

But Korean is a tough language sound wise to differentiate.

Most adults can't do languages as well as children. There is a difference with hearing and pronouncing which is very important.


  • stoat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1387

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #7269 on: February 05, 2020, 12:40:34 pm »
Quote
It's an interesting point about the teaching credentials.  Since living here, none of my coworkers or anyone for that matter has ever asked about my teaching experience, training, certification etc.  Even when enquiring about me teaching private classes to their kids or friends.  On the other hand, I regularly get asked about my Korean ability.

They're only interested in your Korean level because it makes life easier for them. They're not really interested in the students, probably thinking a teacher's youth, gender, nationality and physical appearance are more important anyway.


  • stoat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1387

    • March 05, 2019, 06:36:13 pm
    • seoul
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #7270 on: February 05, 2020, 12:42:12 pm »
Virtually all Western English teachers who've been here for 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 years can't speak Korean at all beyond low level beginner basics.

Koreans look down on them for not becoming fluent and think it's weird.

But it's the norm.

I'd agree with this in my experience. 


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4891

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #7271 on: February 05, 2020, 12:50:20 pm »
Some English teachers can rise above a beginner level. It's just that almost all don't.

Personally, I passed KIIP level 5.

But I don't kid myself into thinking that's common.

I'm so far above other expats I meet (and am in a position to assess their level, which is usually very, very low).

But most likely I lucked out with above average talent for language learning. And combined that with a ton of hard work.

Still, my Korean is not all that good. I struggle to understand others.

And realized it takes longer to say something in Korean than English, so I stopped studying. For me the cost is not worth it.


  • Mister Tim
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1707

    • September 08, 2013, 10:33:54 am
    • SK
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #7272 on: February 05, 2020, 12:52:54 pm »
Not necessarily.  The people chosen for that scored extremely high on an aptitude test. (99th percentile?) Meaning they have language learning talent. Then they study 10 hours a day. (Most is outside the classroom.) Some don't make it and fail out. I met a guy who did the program. He was doing Arabic. Told me it's damn near the hardest language; only Korean had a reputation for being harder. I guess about the same in terms of difficulty.

You're talking to someone who learned Arabic at DLI right now. I'm well familiar with the school and the requirements.

I did say "intensive study," and knowing what all that includes, I still think it'd be perfectly possible for someone to spread out the content over the course of 5+ years and learn the language. Yes, even people who aren't naturally inclined towards learning new languages. They might have to be willing to work a little harder for it, but it can be done.

Incidentally, there's no need to bother with "reputations," since there is an actual official difficulty rating system divided into tiers. The highest difficulty tier of languages generally on offer at DLI includes Arabic, Mandarin, Korean, and Japanese. They're all more or less equally difficult for speakers of English to learn, though each for different reasons.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 4891

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #7273 on: February 05, 2020, 12:57:44 pm »
Since you were chosen to learn Arabic, you have talent for language learning. Have you applied that talent towards getting good at Korean? How far did you get?


  • Mister Tim
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1707

    • September 08, 2013, 10:33:54 am
    • SK
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #7274 on: February 05, 2020, 01:03:35 pm »
I already said my Korean isn't as good as it should be for as long as I've been here. I've never tested for it, but I doubt I'd test very high.

I'm fully aware that it's because I haven't really applied myself, though. I haven't studied it much at all, so most of what I know is just what I've picked up through my interactions over the years. I personally just am not particularly motivated to put anything more than a token effort into learning it. I have no reason to suspect that it'd be too difficult to learn were I to actually apply myself.

My coteachers have told me my Korean is better than that of most other NETs they've worked with, but as you know, that isn't setting the bar very high, haha.


Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #7275 on: February 05, 2020, 01:08:48 pm »
I'm so far above other expats I meet (and am in a position to assess their level, which is usually very, very low).

And humble too. Coolbeans.  How well other expats speak Korean when I meet them, is not something that really bothers me.  I try not to compare myself to others with nonsense like this.

Quote
But most likely I lucked out with above average talent for language learning. And combined that with a ton of hard work.


*internet pat on the back* well done.  Korean is the fourth language that I can converse in.  My weakest being French, because I've piled two on top of that without keeping up with studying French.  I'm sure if I got back into it, it'd come back quick enough. 

Quote
Still, my Korean is not all that good. I struggle to understand others.


You should know that some people would be naturally difficult to understand whether they are speaking Korean, English or any other language.  I understand a lot of Korean, but there is one music teacher who speaks very idiomatically and is usually always joking.  Which is why I find it hard to catch what he's on about.  On the other hand, I find Korean teachers the easiest to understand because I suppose that's part of their job, to be understood explaining language.  You'd find some people speaking English hard to understand if they were using a lot of slang, dialect or such other.   


  • alexisalex
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1065

    • March 02, 2014, 05:10:24 pm
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #7276 on: February 05, 2020, 01:13:36 pm »
Yeah humility isn't exactly the hallmark of the average post here  :laugh:


  • maclarent1337
  • Adventurer

    • 53

    • February 08, 2019, 07:09:51 am
    • Incheon, South Korea
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #7277 on: February 05, 2020, 01:23:32 pm »
I have been here or one year now, and I started studying a few months before I came here. I study nearly every day for one to two hours. and went through KIIP level 2 already.
I am by no means a quick learner, it's so hard for me. But learning Korean culture, history, and the language, is so fun to me. Holding small conversations, as light as they still are due to my limited Korean, makes it feel so worth it already. I have so far to go, sooooooooo far, but just trying to enjoy it. I'm only 23, hopefully I have some time to further dedicate to it. ;)


  • oglop
  • The Legend

    • 3822

    • August 25, 2011, 07:24:54 pm
    • Seoul
Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #7278 on: February 05, 2020, 01:30:50 pm »
Seems like Westerners married to Koreans would have great motivation to learn the language, knowing that they are now connected to the country, in laws who don't speak English, etc.

But most, including you, can't speak Korean well.

Most "professors" with a Korean wife and sometimes even Korean kids can't converse in Korean. Even if they've been in Korea 20+ years.

That's definitely been my experience.   
talking to my in-laws is pretty much the only motivation i have fr learning korean these days. having said that, my wife largely hates going too her parents' house because they always seen to constantly nag her, usually about having babies or saving money. so i'm glad i don't have to put up with much of that

i hate korean pop culture, so i have no real incentive or motivation to get stuck into that

speaking korean has no benefits to my job

my korean level is enough to get by in daily life

pretty much 0 motivtion to keep studying. rather spend my time earning money. or reading. or playing the ps4. pretty much anything else but learning korean, sadly

i'm over it


Re: A thread for pointless Friday ramblings.
« Reply #7279 on: February 05, 2020, 01:32:19 pm »
I have been here or one year now, and I started studying a few months before I came here. I study nearly every day for one to two hours. and went through KIIP level 2 already.
I am by no means a quick learner, it's so hard for me. But learning Korean culture, history, and the language, is so fun to me. Holding small conversations, as light as they still are due to my limited Korean, makes it feel so worth it already. I have so far to go, sooooooooo far, but just trying to enjoy it. I'm only 23, hopefully I have some time to further dedicate to it. ;)

Cool.  It's all good.  Learning new languages, especially through immersion is a very nice way to do it.  Trial and error, learn from your mistakes, but don't let it put you off.  If you've already done KIIP 2 already then you're doing well.  The more you practice the more things will fall into place and it's a great confidence booster.