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Re: Westernization a Threat to Korea's Proven System of Education?
« Reply #60 on: September 12, 2014, 03:29:58 pm »
What people may see being a threat to Korea's education system is encouraging more students to be more creative in their thinking, and fostering different learning styles. That is something not implimented in the Korean education system. There is nothing totally western about that, but if Koreans see that as a threat to their system, then there is something wrong with the Korean society.


  • lee233
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Re: Westernization a Threat to Korea's Proven System of Education?
« Reply #61 on: September 12, 2014, 03:35:34 pm »
@donuts81 - Hagwons can be thought of as part of the education system. Life being a living hell due to poor grades is applicable to anywhere in the world. Quantity has no effects on the average. How is it so many of you take personal experience as the basis of all truths, or the experiences of 5, 10, maybe 30 people you know, when studies that consists of 70 nations, and 600,000 students offer a much bigger, better, diverse and most importantly, accurate sample?

It's this kind of reasoning that makes me love your posts. Given that it supports your point, sure, why not rationalize them as part of the education system.

BTW, definition of education system:

Quote
Education System. The term education system generally refers to public schooling, not private schooling, and more commonly to kindergarten through high school programs.

http://edglossary.org/education-system/

I'm glad you love my posts. I understand that is the definition, now listen to reason. To disregard hagwons in a comparison would be pointless. Here is the reason.

Hagwons provide schooling correct? That is what we would call Learning. It should not be a part of a comparison of education systems. However, learning occurs outside of hagwons as well. In daily life, learning in continuous. If so, then we should also exclude that. There would be no way to do so.

My point is, if a measurement of only knowledge gained from public schools is to be measured, there would be no way. Since what people do in their own time also adds to their knowledge, reasoning, comprehension, etc.

Private schools exists everywhere in this world, and is not mandatory anywhere. It is simply much more common here. Families everywhere are allowed to enroll their children to tutoring. Western countries simply decide that the time their children spend is better spent in amusing activities.

Both scenarios, amusement vs hagwons receive learning of some sort. Hagwon simplies utilizes that "free time" in a learning environment that yields more benefits to the education system.

It is important to remember that we are simply measuring education systems both in the article, and in this thread. Quality of life, or rather, what we DEEM as a high quality of life has very little to do with who has the best education system.

You can all try to disprove me, just as this gentlemen did with credible sources. However, it will be extremely hard to disprove that Korea, as well as other asian countries, have a better method of education, made apparent by better results, than most, if not all western countries.

@johnny russian - Read the other posts. Sources have been provided.

So basically you are saying since Koreans spend more time and money on their children being educated and focus less on quality of life and more on grades it is the best system?

Also, I definite good quality of life as not having to study from 7 am to 10 pm almost continually for 6 years of their life. I don not have a scientific link to prove that regularly studying for 15 hours a day is not good for the health of students, but I think that is something that is safe to infer.
If wishes were horses beggars would ride


Re: Westernization a Threat to Korea's Proven System of Education?
« Reply #62 on: September 12, 2014, 03:39:43 pm »
Uh.. isn't Korea's education essentially the same as the US?  Having taught here for 5 years and being a product of the US public schools, I haven't noticed much difference.  Students in both places cram for tests.  Teachers both teach to the tests.  Schools both try and push everyone forward regardless of their ability.

Poor academic performance is rampant in the US.  There are thousands of kids who are multiple grade levels behind in reading and math.

Students and adults both score at the bottom of reading, math and problem solving compared to the rest of the world.  Obviously, we don't do much right in US education.

Korean education is "better" because of just a couple factors.  First, they spend more time in school.  Most research shows that more time in school helps to keep kids on track.  Many studies show that during summer break many low-income students actually regress in their abilities while students from wealthier households retain or improve their abilities.

Second, as a whole education seems to be more important in Korea.  There is over a 90% high school graduation rate, with the US, I believe, just breaking 80% for the first time recently.  Not graduating high school is pretty much unthinkable in Korea.  In the US, we believe that you can make your own way through effort and still succeed.  Despite the fact that it is overwhelmingly more likely with a high school education.  Never mind how much higher the college graduation rate is in Korea vs the US.

If you honestly think Western education is better, you might be a tad ignorant.

Uh...right. First of all you are oversimplifying everything, and you compare Korea to the West while only citing one country (America). Korea is a small, homogenous country and there are tons of other things to consider. For starters, Korea doesn't have the cultural and economic diversity that you'll find in an American classroom. Just think of how many students at one American school alone are immigrants who are still struggling to learn the English language. Not to mention racism, extreme poverty, drugs/violence, etc. There's also a slew of funding issues that vary from state to state and teachers are notoriously underpaid.

You claim that Korean education is 'better' than Western education, but your definition of the west is solely America. And if you think the systems in England, France, Germany, or even Canada are no different than in America, then "you might be a tad bit ignorant".


Ok, do you all not realize that Korean education is HEAVILY based off of American education?  Yes, my previous post was all about the US system, because that is what my experience is.  I don't talk about shit I don't know about, and I've never experienced other Western education systems.  But, Korea is mostly influenced by American education... sooooo yeah what I said is pretty relevent.

The research pretty clearly shows that American students and people in general score lower on math, reading and problem solving tests.  Averages... of course, but that is all we really have to work with when it comes to statistics such as this.  It is all about standardized tests, something that is heavily promoted and supported in the US and Korea.   Because Korea copies the US education system with remaining influences from Japan as well.

And yes, Korea is a homogenized country that doesn't have a lot of the problems the US does.  Not sure what that has to do with the original discussion, which is the threat of the West to Korea's education.  I was simply pointing out that Korea is already based on the American education system, which is pretty crappy as evidenced by pretty much every global standard there is.


Re: Westernization a Threat to Korea's Proven System of Education?
« Reply #63 on: September 12, 2014, 03:40:50 pm »
PISA is a good indicator (if not the only one) that truly tests international students (at the age of 15). The test is the same/similar for all countries, as well as it's method of grading. How Koreans decide to "inflate" grades has no effects on the world ranking.

PISA is actually trash. it's a complete mess statistically. this article here does a really good job of discussing in laymans terms the problems with it: http://www.statslife.org.uk/opinion/1074-the-problems-with-pisa-statistical-methods

here's but one extract:
Quote
Svend Kreiner has calculated that in 2006, about half did not answer any reading questions at all, while 'another 40 per cent of participating students were tested on just 14 of the 28 reading questions used in the assessment. So only approximately 10 per cent of the students who took part in PISA were tested on all 28 reading questions.'

Wonderful source. However, the author is simply claiming skepticism, and not fully disproving the worthiness of PISA.

I agree that PISA is not completely accurate. However, I do believe it to be one of the best indicators out there, and while the data, in a supposedly perfectly accurate test were to exist, will become more dispersed, it would not change the outcome so much that western countries would rise from their positions in the mid 20-30's, to the top 5, which would consequently drop asian countries, who currently holds the top spots, down by the same degree.

PISA is not completely accurate, but it does have it's merits, and does show certain truths. There will never be a test that can accurately measure the education system, due to so many complex factors. As such, I will personally take PISA, not as blind truth, but as something that can be used as a decent source. Korean education is definitely better than america.

and i believe i stated that korea is close to #1, if not #1 in a number of fields. Very different from "Korea is #1 in a number of fields".

EDIT: I should clarify my stance.

Most developed countries have education systems that work. Comparisons between them are pointless, as they all produce wonderful academics and intellectuals. There is also no true way to compare such countries that would make sense, since test scores are never a good indicator for success. However, if a comparison IS to be made, which in this thread it is, than I stand by the answer that asian countries have a better, more efficient education system than most, if not all western countries.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2014, 03:52:26 pm by richardtang1991 »
Open your mind.


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Re: Westernization a Threat to Korea's Proven System of Education?
« Reply #64 on: September 12, 2014, 04:15:44 pm »
Here we go again. PISA is not taken across the board in Korea. I know this for a fact having worked in multiple schools on the lower end of the spectrum for years, with kids of PISA testing age. None of them have ever taken it.

You see a problem here? When you use the PISA test to back up your claims, you are invoking two fallacies. Cherry picking and confirmation bias.

Not taking sides here, but its a factually useless test because some governments see it as junk waving contest and rig the game against each other in a macho show of stupidity.
Away an bile yer heid ya numpty,ye dinnae ken whit yer talkin aboot.


  • confusedsafferinkorea
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Re: Westernization a Threat to Korea's Proven System of Education?
« Reply #65 on: September 12, 2014, 05:38:18 pm »
However, if a comparison IS to be made, which in this thread it is, than I stand by the answer that asian countries have a better, more efficient education system than most, if not all western countries.

Richard, you do know there is a difference between teaching and education, right? Asians may be taught better (not in my opinion, but anyhoo) but they are not educated better.

The system of rote learning does not bode well for thinking outside the box, which is discouraged here anyway.

Hey, but what do I know? I have only been an educator for 36 years.
There is no known medical cure for stupidity!


  • orangeman
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Re: Westernization a Threat to Korea's Proven System of Education?
« Reply #66 on: September 12, 2014, 06:39:35 pm »
Here we go again. PISA is not taken across the board in Korea. I know this for a fact having worked in multiple schools on the lower end of the spectrum for years, with kids of PISA testing age. None of them have ever taken it.

You see a problem here? When you use the PISA test to back up your claims, you are invoking two fallacies. Cherry picking and confirmation bias.

Not taking sides here, but its a factually useless test because some governments see it as junk waving contest and rig the game against each other in a macho show of stupidity.

Was going to post the same thing.  In Western countries like the US, PISA is administered to a wide range of students across the soci-economic spectrum as well as geographically.  In Korea it was only administered in Seoul (and some say only in pre-selected 'special' schools) while in China it was only taken in Shanghai.  Then you add the city states of Hong Kong and Singapore, and you realize it's not really an Asia vs West debate, but a urban/wealthy vs rural/poor debate. 

In addition, standardized tests have been proven again and again to be a bad predictor of knowledge retention and future academic success.  However, it is the easiest and most understandable form of 'measuring' education and thus many societies have embraced it wholeheartedly.  In the West, especially the USA, it has recently become trendy because it can be used politically very easily.  It gives the impression that the people looking at the data understand the implications, without ever having to grasp how those numbers came to be. 

Korea particularly has always valued standardized testing above all else, so they already have a head start because they are used to shaping their whole education system around it.  Which brings us to the statement, "Korea ranks as one of the best countries for education".  That statement is completely false, because 'education' isn't measurable like that.  What is true is that Korea tests the highest on standardized tests, and many have accepted this as the only measure of education because it's almost impossible to come up with a different way to quantify the term. 

And talking about the USA, and I'm hardly a defender of many things they do and the reality of their public systems in general, but it really is apples and oranges.  Saying "Americans" aren't good at math or reading or whatever is extremely misleading.  Some areas of the US have the highest scores on the planet.  But it's a huge country with many different languages, cultures and economic realities.  It's pretty funny that those who say it's just immigrants leading American innovation then brush off the multicultural make up of the country.  Not that immigrants are dumb or anything, but when you have kids from 5-10 completely different countries, with several mother tongues, in one classroom it just creates a different learning environment.  It's pretty ballsy to say that the US has a weak education system, it's just that everyone wants to go to an American university.  And where are these American universities?  Where do most of their faculty come from?  Where do most of their students come from?  The reason they get funding is because they lead the world in many cases.  If a university in Germany started to lead in astrophysics then companies would flock over there.  And they already do, and there are tons of funding options around the world for that reason. 

Anyway, there are things to learn from the Korean system and things to learn in the "Western" system (even though that is such a huge term, even if we were just using the American example).  I think American kids could learn to take their studies a bit more seriously, and I think Korean kids could learn to diversify themselves more.  Yeah, Korean kids study a lot (aka sit at a desk and play on their phones), but most do not have many other responsibilities.  Kids here should have hobbies (NOT academy hobbies), more sports, PT jobs, etc..