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  • orangeman
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1768

    • September 01, 2011, 09:56:35 am
    • Seoul-East Side
Re: Children without knowing failure
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2014, 06:48:07 pm »
Of course he doesn't know, that's why I'm TELLING HIM!  He is six.  If I don't tell him now and explain these things he won't know how to behave at 16.

This is really the crux of the whole thing.  It's like they expect them to wake up at age 16 completely self sufficient without any education into how that comes to pass.  It's why, I'm sorry if this sounds mean, so many teenage and even adult Koreans are completely useless (especially the men).  They are babied to the point of embarrassment.  This isn't only true here, but in Southern European cultures as well.  On the flip side, they think parents teaching their kids how to take care of themselves is 'unloving'.  And it goes to what I said above a few months ago, once most of my students know the rules and procedures they will follow them no problem.  It's the adults who flip out. 


Re: Children without knowing failure
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2014, 07:13:20 pm »
Of course he doesn't know, that's why I'm TELLING HIM!  He is six.  If I don't tell him now and explain these things he won't know how to behave at 16.

This is really the crux of the whole thing.  It's like they expect them to wake up at age 16 completely self sufficient without any education into how that comes to pass.  It's why, I'm sorry if this sounds mean, so many teenage and even adult Koreans are completely useless (especially the men).  They are babied to the point of embarrassment.  This isn't only true here, but in Southern European cultures as well.  On the flip side, they think parents teaching their kids how to take care of themselves is 'unloving'.  And it goes to what I said above a few months ago, once most of my students know the rules and procedures they will follow them no problem.  It's the adults who flip out.

See my earlier thread, which happened today. 3 men and a woman, in their 30s, had no idea how to change a flat tire. After I changed it, they still weren't convinced the problem was solved and they still called roadside assistance to come and walk around the car, look at it, charge them some money, give the OK and walk away.


Re: Children without knowing failure
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2014, 11:02:03 pm »
Korean mothers traditionally like to nurture dependency in their children. It's part of ensuring security in their old age. Spend the child's formative years instilling a lack of independent identity, and then when you are old and infirm they will still "need" you around and will keep you afloat.

I'm not sure if it's altogether different from what our mothers may or may not have done when we were young. I mean, my mom could be strict and never tried to shield me too much from difficult lessons, but I never felt she loved me any less than Korean mothers love their soft-bellied manchildren. If anything I should thank her more profusely (and my father, of course) for helping me stand on my own two feet as well as I do now. My parents did it because they felt responsible for helping me help myself; they didn't have me and my sister out of some messed-up sense of economic insurance in their twilight years.


  • orangeman
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1768

    • September 01, 2011, 09:56:35 am
    • Seoul-East Side
Re: Children without knowing failure
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2014, 01:50:04 am »
Korean mothers traditionally like to nurture dependency in their children. It's part of ensuring security in their old age. Spend the child's formative years instilling a lack of independent identity, and then when you are old and infirm they will still "need" you around and will keep you afloat.

I'm not sure if it's altogether different from what our mothers may or may not have done when we were young. I mean, my mom could be strict and never tried to shield me too much from difficult lessons, but I never felt she loved me any less than Korean mothers love their soft-bellied manchildren. If anything I should thank her more profusely (and my father, of course) for helping me stand on my own two feet as well as I do now. My parents did it because they felt responsible for helping me help myself; they didn't have me and my sister out of some messed-up sense of economic insurance in their twilight years.

That's a very good take on it.  The problems lies in the fact that in my time here I've seen parents baby and spoil their kids even more, while adults care less and less about their parents. 

Just one tiny recent example.  While I walked to the subway the other day I saw a mother shoving chips into her 6 year old son's mouth as he was walking down the street playing games on a phone I could never afford.  Then on the subway I watched as a 5 year old spread herself across two seats with her late 20s parents sitting on either side of her while two old ladies, one with a cane, stood and watched.  Like I said, one small example, but I'm seeing it so much more now than 10 years ago.  Generation gap, indeed. 

*Just wanted to add that I did say something on the subway, like I would anywhere else.  But the old ladies were the ones who hushed me, saying the little darling was clearly tired and needed rest.  Meanwhile the family of sloth didn't even look up from their phones.  The older ones still have the mentality you mention, but the younger ones obviously don't. 
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 01:53:20 am by orangeman »


  • SpaceRook
  • Expert Waygook

    • 814

    • November 18, 2010, 11:54:36 am
    • South Korea
Re: Children without knowing failure
« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2014, 07:58:21 am »
Just one tiny recent example.  While I walked to the subway the other day I saw a mother shoving chips into her 6 year old son's mouth as he was walking down the street playing games on a phone I could never afford.  Then on the subway I watched as a 5 year old spread herself across two seats with her late 20s parents sitting on either side of her while two old ladies, one with a cane, stood and watched.  Like I said, one small example, but I'm seeing it so much more now than 10 years ago.  Generation gap, indeed. 

I was on a bus the other day, and a child was playing with a rattle.  On a bus.  With people trying to sleep.  And the parents just completely ignored it.  I am a strong advocate of "children should be seen and not heard." 

On another note, I agree with almost everything Louis CK has ever said about parenting.



Re: Children without knowing failure
« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2014, 10:52:40 am »
Quote
Today I was told to let 10 students (in a class of 18) sleep because it is "hot". 

I let my middle and high school students sleep because they're obviously exhausted and I'm not a monster.


Re: Children without knowing failure
« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2014, 11:06:34 am »
No, apparently you're a daycare attendant.


Re: Children without knowing failure
« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2014, 11:30:10 am »
No, apparently you're a daycare attendant.

I'm Just a decent human being who cares about the physical and emotional well-being of children.

I seem to be someone you haven't met much in your life so take a picture and stick it up on your mirror so you can have something to aspire to.


Re: Children without knowing failure
« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2014, 12:51:00 pm »
Quote
On another note, I agree with almost everything Louis CK has ever said about parenting.
With the amount of success Louis CK has had and wealth he's no doubt accumulated, why should he think his kids are going to have to get through a 'terrible life'? are they going to struggle to feed themselves, put a roof over their heads, get basic medical care? Either he's thinking back to the time when he was broke (or so he claims) or he's talking about strictly first world problems. That's the problem with being too successful a standup, eventually your old routines won't  stack up any more.

He's generally a funny guy but his routines when he acts like he really dislikes his kids jar a bit with me.  I wish he would avoid the subject of his domestic life all together to be honest and talk more about modern life in general.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 12:57:15 pm by eggieguffer »


Re: Children without knowing failure
« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2014, 02:26:06 pm »
so take a picture and stick it up on your mirror so you can have something to aspire to.



  • MJHanson
  • Expert Waygook

    • 500

    • May 02, 2011, 09:42:58 am
    • Gyeonggi-do, South Korea
Re: Children without knowing failure
« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2014, 03:17:04 pm »
Quote
On another note, I agree with almost everything Louis CK has ever said about parenting.
With the amount of success Louis CK has had and wealth he's no doubt accumulated, why should he think his kids are going to have to get through a 'terrible life'? are they going to struggle to feed themselves, put a roof over their heads, get basic medical care? Either he's thinking back to the time when he was broke (or so he claims) or he's talking about strictly first world problems. That's the problem with being too successful a standup, eventually your old routines won't  stack up any more.

He's generally a funny guy but his routines when he acts like he really dislikes his kids jar a bit with me.  I wish he would avoid the subject of his domestic life all together to be honest and talk more about modern life in general.

Domestic life is his shtick.  His jokes are built around being a middle-aged dad. 

And even rich people can have terrible lives if they don't learn how to take care of themselves!  Even if you have money, you still need to be emotionally strong enough to be independent.  And wealthy children still need to learn the value of money, or else they could easily ruin the family fortune. 

I had a friend who somehow managed to go in debt while teaching through GEPIK.  He had no university loans or any other form of debt when he arrived.  His parents had money.  They paid for college and had always taken care of him.  Then he came to Korea, earned 2.1 million per month, and managed to blow it all every month!  He used credit cards to pay for vacations too.  After 1.5 years he was several grand in debt and had no savings.  He would complain that his 2.1 million won salary was impossible to live on.  I'm pretty sure his parents eventually bailed out his credit card debt.  <--- That is why you don't provide your kids with everything they want.  They need to learn the value of labor and how to manage money. 


  • Pecan
  • The Legend

    • 3769

    • December 27, 2010, 09:14:44 am
    • Seoul
Re: Children without knowing failure
« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2014, 04:19:30 pm »
They need to learn the value of labor and how to manage money.

i hear you, but one would hope to inspire their children to think beyond the proletariat/indentured servant/slave mentality of trading hours for dollars and instead, nurture a creative person that trades ideas for millions.


Re: Children without knowing failure
« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2014, 04:25:20 pm »
Quote
Domestic life is his shtick.  His jokes are built around being a middle-aged dad. 

Yes but most of the humour from what I've seen is based on him slagging his kids off. Yeah I know it's kind of a taboo he's breaking and I can see why people think identify with it and think it's funny but if spending time with his kids is that bad, why did he bother having them? He's wealthy enough now to pay for a nanny to deal with all times when kids can be annoying
« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 04:27:03 pm by eggieguffer »


  • pkjh
  • The Legend

    • 2181

    • May 02, 2012, 02:59:44 pm
    • Asia
Re: Children without knowing failure
« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2014, 06:36:24 pm »
Not sure if you guys know, but traditionally Korean teachers were expected to be disciplinarians, while parents coddled them. On top of that in the past, kids generally had like 5 other siblings, and they also kept them in line.

Now with the common only child, or 2 children, and parents not knowing that schools were often expected to discipline children, they have really handcuffed Korean teachers as how much they can set a kid straight. And at home they just spoil the rotten, with all the modern technology and stuff, whereas in the past all they get is some cheap top to play with, or played outside with their older siblings who beat them up.


  • MJHanson
  • Expert Waygook

    • 500

    • May 02, 2011, 09:42:58 am
    • Gyeonggi-do, South Korea
Re: Children without knowing failure
« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2014, 07:34:38 pm »
They need to learn the value of labor and how to manage money.

i hear you, but one would hope to inspire their children to think beyond the proletariat/indentured servant/slave mentality of trading hours for dollars and instead, nurture a creative person that trades ideas for millions.

I agree, though I don't think it's necessarily a slave mentality.  The fact is that you have to work to receive rewards.  Even developing great ideas is work.  Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, and Bill Gates didn't get just get lucky.  They worked hard and put themselves out there. 

Many (certainly not all) Korean students seem to lack the concept of work and reward.  A lot of young Korean guys think if they go to college, serve in the military, and graduate, they will get a nice office job and a beautiful girlfriend.  I teach 22 year-olds who write "CEO" when I ask what they want to be after university  :rolleyes: 

Yeah, Korea definitely has to nurture creativity in young people and provide them with opportunities to show their talents.  At the same time, young Koreans need to figure out that success is hard-earned, and not just the end result of some assembly-line lifestyle. 


Re: Children without knowing failure
« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2014, 11:32:53 pm »
I feel kids should experience competition, winning, and failing. They are all a part of life. Competition is everywhere (for jobs, resources, life partners). Winning is great, but takes sacrifice. Failing leads to horrible feelings. Trying to recreate certain feelings while avoiding others from previous experiences can be a powerful motivator.

Calling every child a winner may actually be damaging by conditioning them to be unprepared for reality.


  • Mr C
  • The Legend

    • 3023

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Children without knowing failure
« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2014, 12:21:06 am »
No, apparently you're a daycare attendant.

I'm Just a decent human being who cares about the physical and emotional well-being of children.

I seem to be someone you haven't met much in your life so take a picture and stick it up on your mirror so you can have something to aspire to.
Okay, so if you care about children, why are you filling class time with completely useless and irrelevant activities that benefit them less than napping during the daytime?   Chances are quite high, after all, that they're "exhausted" because of inappropriate nocturnal activities that you are enabling.

The thrust of this thread is about parents as enablers and spoilers, what we've been calling "helicopter parents" for some time now, and what you are suggesting is no better. 

But at least your error seems to be from empathy rather than the anti-Korean bias I sense in some other posters: that is, that since Koreans do it this way, or act that way, it must be wrong. 

At my school, we give students every opportunity to get it "right", whether it's reading aloud, answering a question or playing a game.  However, we don't cheat them either way. 

Perhaps some might be interested in the reward system we have settled on in my two years at the elementary school I've taught at in Mok-dong.  Classes are arranged in teams that we randomly change with each chapter.  Their team earns one point if everyone has their book, folder, notebook, nametag and pencil/case at the beginning of class. 

The team earns points by participating in Q and A, doing warm-up activities, being vocal during things like listen-and-repeat, or even being clearly attentive during textbook animations and stuff.  If we do something competitive, 1st place earns 3, second 2, etc.  If members of a team are off-task, after one warning, we will remove a point.  The points are tallied in a corner of the whiteboard.

The objective of points for a team is for its members to earn a stamp on their individual stamp sheet.   At the end of class, one or two top teams (and occasionally even all of them) will earn a stamp.  Sometimes, the first five students (or everyone within a time period) to complete a worksheet will also earn a stamp. 

After you get ten stamps, you get a candy.  We have various candies, and you pick a candy randomly from a box of tokens that represent each kind of candy--like M&Ms, lollipop, gold coin, bubble gum, etc.  Having to earn ten stamps means that even strong students will take three or more class sessions to earn a candy.  This teaches delayed reward and persistance. 

And yet, even sixth graders are anxious to earn a freaking  five-cent "Fruitella" candy!  They exert peer pressure on their teammates to pay attention, and it's quite rare that students come to class without all their materials, textbooks open and ready to go when class begins.


  • philby1985
  • Expert Waygook

    • 662

    • March 05, 2013, 09:10:49 am
    • Daejeon
Re: Children without knowing failure
« Reply #57 on: September 14, 2014, 11:30:50 am »
General question (not directed at anyone in particular). What rewards system did your teachers implement when you went to school?

I never got stickers, stamps or candy for finishing tasks, bringing our books and pencil cases, coming to class on time or waiting quietly (in 2 lines) outside the classroom. We never had party days for good behaviour.

For me, the reward was always happy parents, happy teachers and a sense of achievement.


Re: Children without knowing failure
« Reply #58 on: September 14, 2014, 11:49:13 am »
Same here. Unless there was a particular educational program going on -- reading a certain number of books in a month or Science Week or whatever -- I don't recall having a reward system in place for academic achievement.

But then I don't recall being taught that education is just a means to achieving material success and that's all it's good for.


  • orangeman
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1768

    • September 01, 2011, 09:56:35 am
    • Seoul-East Side
Re: Children without knowing failure
« Reply #59 on: September 14, 2014, 12:42:17 pm »
General question (not directed at anyone in particular). What rewards system did your teachers implement when you went to school?

I never got stickers, stamps or candy for finishing tasks, bringing our books and pencil cases, coming to class on time or waiting quietly (in 2 lines) outside the classroom. We never had party days for good behaviour.

For me, the reward was always happy parents, happy teachers and a sense of achievement.

I completely agree, and for the first few years in Korea I tried to stick to my guns about academic achievement being a reward in itself.  But later I completely caved.  It's not my country, I'm not here to fix anything.  In Korea, only actions that reap immediate rewards seem to be worthwhile.  Look at personal relationships here, you're my friend until I don't need you anymore and then you're just tossed aside.  Sorry to be harsh, just my observation.