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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #860 on: March 12, 2019, 10:08:36 pm »

I’ve seen the research, I know the stats about china and North Korea. It’s an issue that I’ve been following for years. Stop missreprenting what I’m saying. Never have I claimed that China or North Korea don’t have their part. All I’ve ever brought to the table is a discussion on the meta-narrative of the whole issue. Please re-read my posts from the past few pages. You’re creating a discussion that isn’t even there. What exactly do you know more than me?

You kind of are claiming to be an expert though. You’re talking about ‘coincindences’ and wind patterns. If you feel strongly enough to make difinite claims about how the global climate and pollution and energy usage works and how they interact full stop, then I think you are asserting that you have a professional opinion, no?

Jeeesus. If you've seen everything and know it all then why are you here challenging it and acting indignant when people refer to it, like some sort of argumentative old lady? The meta-narrative is what it is. There aren't any wildly inaccurate proclamations going on.

Discussing a phenomena in it's basic terms isn't the sign of an expert for god's sake. Do you also get mad when people discuss issues in the Middle East because they aren't regional experts? If you feel that insecure making elementary cognitive connections, or feel uncomfortable being around those that do so, i don't know what to tell you. Looking at the direction the wind is coming from isn't some sort of esoteric science. Neither is seeing Shandong and Qingdao with readings on 300, while Seoul has 72. And then 2 days later Seoul having a level 240, even though there have been no dramatic events beyond a Nor-westerly.

The only thing I’m challenging is the general narrative pushed by the korean media and often used on /r/korea and some posters here, and that is an overwhelming emphasis on China. This general issue of pollution/energy usage/climate change is one that is convoluted filled with so many disparate systems that are also connected in a multiplicity of ways, if it were so simple as ‘wind patterns’ then we’d be on our merry way of solving the ‘don’t reach the greater than 2 degree Celsius’ target.

It’s not hard to see that Seoul government has no real target (as of yet) on sustainability. They’re about to level down the main hill behind Itaewon to put up luxury apartments.

Of course you can have a populace that puts pressure on their representatives to put pressure on neighbors, but I have yet to see much change in the way Korea views its own backyard.

Nice ad-homs though  8)

Ok Mr. Smartguy. The air was in the reds this morning and there is now green all over the peninsula. What happened to make it clear up so fast?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 10:57:06 pm by TheEnergizer »


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 3193

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #861 on: March 13, 2019, 04:59:49 am »
Rain and wind blew away the pollution.


  • zola
  • The Legend

    • 2638

    • September 30, 2012, 06:56:11 am
    • Korea
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #862 on: March 13, 2019, 07:58:44 am »
I'm in a bit of pain.
I (Korea) stubbed my toe and it's bleeding a bit. I need to take care of that but at the same time, some other kid (North Korea) is flicking the back of my ear, that's kind of annoying. So I need to bat him away and fix up my stubbed toe. I forgot to mention that this massive 6'4, 130kg, MMA specialist striker (China) is punching me in the face repeatedly. But that's not important now, I've got to take care of my own stubbed toe. Lest people become focused on my "meta-narrative" of looking at this massive guy smacking me in the head regularly.
Kpip! - Martin 2018


  • macteacher
  • Expert Waygook

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    • September 03, 2012, 09:59:00 am
    • south korea
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #863 on: March 13, 2019, 08:36:41 am »
Rain and wind blew away the pollution.

yeah exactly, i’ve said before that i think climate change is playing a big part. precipitation and wind helps get rid of it.

okay zola, so you got 5 kids and a yard. you let the kids trash it for 15 years. spreading all their garbage everywhere. now you have a neighbor with 30 kids, who start doing the same and they’re let’s say 5 years old. you get mad at your neighbor for trashing his yard and ruining the value of the neighborhood (despite letting your kids mess your up for 15 years). you now start a campaign in your front yard to put restrictions on your neighbor, say cutting their power and food access.

we can play these scenarios all day but it doesn’t really get us further

idk zola, agree to disagree. this whole climate issue is one that hasn’t been faced before and the old “cold war” way of thinking about things (good vs bad / factionalized) is not going to do much going forward imo
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 09:05:44 am by macteacher »


  • leaponover
  • Super Waygook

    • 435

    • March 05, 2012, 12:08:16 pm
    • Iksan, S. Korea
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #864 on: March 13, 2019, 06:34:53 pm »
Rain and wind blew away the pollution.

yeah exactly, i’ve said before that i think climate change is playing a big part. precipitation and wind helps get rid of it.

okay zola, so you got 5 kids and a yard. you let the kids trash it for 15 years. spreading all their garbage everywhere. now you have a neighbor with 30 kids, who start doing the same and they’re let’s say 5 years old. you get mad at your neighbor for trashing his yard and ruining the value of the neighborhood (despite letting your kids mess your up for 15 years). you now start a campaign in your front yard to put restrictions on your neighbor, say cutting their power and food access.

we can play these scenarios all day but it doesn’t really get us further

idk zola, agree to disagree. this whole climate issue is one that hasn’t been faced before and the old “cold war” way of thinking about things (good vs bad / factionalized) is not going to do much going forward imo

Your example is a little bit inaccurate.  It's more like you have a neighbor with 10 kids and they've been trashing the neighborhood for 10 years, now they are up to 30 kids and you've had five of your own that have learned how to trash the neighborhood by watching the neighbor's kids.  You are still a bad parent, but the neighborhood was trashed long before you had kids and it's hard to make them avoid bad habits.


Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #865 on: March 14, 2019, 04:13:21 am »
Rain and wind blew away the pollution.

yeah exactly, i’ve said before that i think climate change is playing a big part. precipitation and wind helps get rid of it.

okay zola, so you got 5 kids and a yard. you let the kids trash it for 15 years. spreading all their garbage everywhere. now you have a neighbor with 30 kids, who start doing the same and they’re let’s say 5 years old. you get mad at your neighbor for trashing his yard and ruining the value of the neighborhood (despite letting your kids mess your up for 15 years). you now start a campaign in your front yard to put restrictions on your neighbor, say cutting their power and food access.

we can play these scenarios all day but it doesn’t really get us further

idk zola, agree to disagree. this whole climate issue is one that hasn’t been faced before and the old “cold war” way of thinking about things (good vs bad / factionalized) is not going to do much going forward imo

Your example is a little bit inaccurate.  It's more like you have a neighbor with 10 kids and they've been trashing the neighborhood for 10 years, now they are up to 30 kids and you've had five of your own that have learned how to trash the neighborhood by watching the neighbor's kids.  You are still a bad parent, but the neighborhood was trashed long before you had kids and it's hard to make them avoid bad habits.

You guys have it all wrong.

It's more like you have a big yard and there are 500 kids in the neighborhood including 3000 of your own, and they're like normal kids except they wear suits and carry briefcases and sing songs in Hungarian, and they keep coming up to you telling you that there's an 8-foot tall rabbit named Harvey who lives behind the shed in your garden, and you keep going there to see wtf they're talking about and you find nothing, except one day you find a giant carrot, the biggest carrot you've ever seen, and you start to wonder if maybe you left the kettle on.
Quote
Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on Yesterday at 01:40:32 PM

    Trump is a liar and a con man.


Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #866 on: March 14, 2019, 07:07:54 am »
always nice when South Korea gets in The Guardian...

Quote
South Korea has passed emergency measures to tackle the “social disaster” being unleashed by air pollution, after record levels of fine dust blanketed most of the country in recent weeks.

The national assembly passed a series of bills on Wednesday giving authorities access to emergency funds for measures that include the mandatory installation of high-capacity air purifiers in classrooms and encouraging sales of liquified petroleum gas vehicles, which produce lower emissions than those that run on petrol and diesel.

The measures will give government officials access to a US$2.65bn emergency fund, as criticism mounts of President Moon Jae-in’s failure to tackle the crisis.

Air pollution has become a key political issue after the concentration of fine dust particles surged to record levels in many parts of the country last week, according to South Korean media.

Seven major cities suffered record-high concentrations of dangerous PM 2.5 particles, according to the National Institute of Environmental Research.

The World Health Organization has warned that air pollution poses a major public health risk due to its links with a host of respiratory and cardiovascular illnesses.

Seoul has already introduced emergency measures, such as limiting vehicle use, curbing the use of coal-fired power stations and cutting the amount of dust generated by building sites and power plants. But they have had little success.

The crisis has also created friction with China, which South Korean public health experts say is responsible for between 50% and 70% of fine dust pollution in the Seoul area, home to almost half the country’s population. Experts say the particles, from Chinese deserts and factories, are carried to the Korean peninsula by prevailing westerly winds.

Chinese officials, however, rejected the claims, and urged South Korea to first determine if its own factories, power plants and vehicles were to blame.

“If we really want to solve the problem, we may first have to confirm what the problem is. If we don’t find any problem (at home), we must think that it has been from outside,” Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Lu Kang said, according to Kyodo news.

Moon, whose personal approval ratings have dipped due to the crisis, has ordered officials to work with their Chinese counterparts on possible solutions, including the use of cloud-seeding to create artificial rain over the Yellow Sea, which divides the two countries, Yonhap said.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/mar/13/social-disaster-south-korea-brings-in-emergency-laws-to-tackle-dust-pollution

a:  my school installed air cleaners last year in all the homeroom classrooms.  last week, I asked for one in my room, which will be installed next week.   :smiley:

b.  'limiting car use in Seoul''curbing coal powered power stations?' :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

c.  arguing with China?  check!

d:  not sure why, but when I see 'Korean Public Health Expert' followed by what they say, I have to laugh.  :laugh:


Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #867 on: March 21, 2019, 09:54:11 am »
Original Question answer. If it's affecting your health in a severe way then yeah I'd leave Korea but if you are dealing with it well then stick around.


Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #868 on: March 24, 2019, 01:39:42 pm »
The bbc have a report from Mongolia on air pollution. It seems there is unadulterated burning of coal there and the scene is like London in the 1800s.

I’m checking the current pm 2.5 levels there and they don’t seem that bad.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/science-environment-47673327/mongolia-a-toxic-warning-to-the-world

On a side note these people are closely related to the Koreans. Their language even sounds similar.


  • Cyanea
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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    • September 04, 2016, 01:48:24 pm
    • Las Vegas
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #869 on: March 24, 2019, 03:01:01 pm »
Seoul has already introduced emergency measures, such as limiting vehicle use, curbing the use of coal-fired power stations and cutting the amount of dust generated by building sites and power plants. But they have had little success.


I never actually see them doing this. I live near a construction site and its as dusty as ever.


I highly doubt Korea is taking any measures. They love to pass laws and project an image to the world that they are doing things but in reality... they do nothing.

If someone is making money out of it, then it is allowed to continue. Even if it results in long term harm to all. This is the Korean way.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 08:18:05 pm by Cyanea »
Catch my drift?


  • SanderB
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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #870 on: March 24, 2019, 10:59:06 pm »
It's fairly clean today, debbie must have taken the opportunity to hike up Dobongsan. :smiley:
Fiat voluntas tua- All that you want is allowed


  • kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

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    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #871 on: March 25, 2019, 08:34:01 am »
On a side note these people are closely related to the Koreans. Their language even sounds similar.
Ethnicity has nothing to do with a group's propensity to pollute, if that's what you're implying.

Culturally, Mongolia and Korea don't share much in common: Korea has traditionally been dominated by Chinese values and philosophies (ie Confucianism), while Mongolia has not.

   Mongolia pollutes like crazy because it is a very poor country, and has access to a local, and very cheap supply of lignitic and bituminous coal (brown coals), which are super dirty to burn.
Also, it's economy is driven primarily by mining, which is not exactly great for the environment either.

Korea pollutes because it is extremely densely populated, has a large manufacturing industry, and because the chaebols basically run the country and profit immensely by preventing the government from implementing policies that would reduce pollution.

Also, currently, this website's single AQI measurement from Mongolia is at 203, which sucks.  :sad:
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 08:43:34 am by kyndo »


  • Aristocrat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1610

    • November 10, 2014, 01:04:27 pm
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #872 on: March 25, 2019, 11:02:44 am »
On a side note these people are closely related to the Koreans. Their language even sounds similar.
Ethnicity has nothing to do with a group's propensity to pollute, if that's what you're implying.

Culturally, Mongolia and Korea don't share much in common: Korea has traditionally been dominated by Chinese values and philosophies (ie Confucianism), while Mongolia has not.

   Mongolia pollutes like crazy because it is a very poor country, and has access to a local, and very cheap supply of lignitic and bituminous coal (brown coals), which are super dirty to burn.
Also, it's economy is driven primarily by mining, which is not exactly great for the environment either.

Korea pollutes because it is extremely densely populated, has a large manufacturing industry, and because the chaebols basically run the country and profit immensely by preventing the government from implementing policies that would reduce pollution.

Also, currently, this website's single AQI measurement from Mongolia is at 203, which sucks.  :sad:

You're correct, there are many, many similarities between China and Korea, particularly the politics of playing the victim, both countries have it down to an art form. One  chief factor which leads to air pollution in Korea, the utter propensity to waste electricity.


  • leaponover
  • Super Waygook

    • 435

    • March 05, 2012, 12:08:16 pm
    • Iksan, S. Korea
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #873 on: March 25, 2019, 05:08:57 pm »
On a side note these people are closely related to the Koreans. Their language even sounds similar.
Ethnicity has nothing to do with a group's propensity to pollute, if that's what you're implying.

Culturally, Mongolia and Korea don't share much in common: Korea has traditionally been dominated by Chinese values and philosophies (ie Confucianism), while Mongolia has not.

   Mongolia pollutes like crazy because it is a very poor country, and has access to a local, and very cheap supply of lignitic and bituminous coal (brown coals), which are super dirty to burn.
Also, it's economy is driven primarily by mining, which is not exactly great for the environment either.

Korea pollutes because it is extremely densely populated, has a large manufacturing industry, and because the chaebols basically run the country and profit immensely by preventing the government from implementing policies that would reduce pollution.

Also, currently, this website's single AQI measurement from Mongolia is at 203, which sucks.  :sad:

You're correct, there are many, many similarities between China and Korea, particularly the politics of playing the victim, both countries have it down to an art form. One  chief factor which leads to air pollution in Korea, the utter propensity to waste electricity.

I can't even figure out what this refers to?  I've never lived in a country where public buildings have rules about the temperature, and I've also never lived in a country where people refuse to use air conditioner in the heat of Summer on a friggin peninsula.  I don't see where all this "wasted electricity" is happening?  Please do enlighten me.  I see people turning out the lights when they are not at home, households only owning 1 tv and computer and tons of solar panels.  Where is this wasted electricity you speak of?


  • SanderB
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    • June 02, 2018, 06:25:54 pm
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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #874 on: April 09, 2019, 12:20:39 am »
I got an air pollution warning of ''high levels of air pollution measured'' I got home and checked : lol

:)

Fiat voluntas tua- All that you want is allowed


  • VanIslander
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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #875 on: April 09, 2019, 01:47:20 am »
Windows open with a/c on... a Korean thing.


  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 3907

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #876 on: April 09, 2019, 03:21:26 am »
Windows open with a/c on... a Korean thing.
To be fair, they leave doors open all winter, and I’ve yet to see a window that closed well.


  • Aristocrat
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1610

    • November 10, 2014, 01:04:27 pm
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #877 on: April 09, 2019, 08:12:33 am »
On a side note these people are closely related to the Koreans. Their language even sounds similar.
Ethnicity has nothing to do with a group's propensity to pollute, if that's what you're implying.

Culturally, Mongolia and Korea don't share much in common: Korea has traditionally been dominated by Chinese values and philosophies (ie Confucianism), while Mongolia has not.

   Mongolia pollutes like crazy because it is a very poor country, and has access to a local, and very cheap supply of lignitic and bituminous coal (brown coals), which are super dirty to burn.
Also, it's economy is driven primarily by mining, which is not exactly great for the environment either.

Korea pollutes because it is extremely densely populated, has a large manufacturing industry, and because the chaebols basically run the country and profit immensely by preventing the government from implementing policies that would reduce pollution.

Also, currently, this website's single AQI measurement from Mongolia is at 203, which sucks.  :sad:

You're correct, there are many, many similarities between China and Korea, particularly the politics of playing the victim, both countries have it down to an art form. One  chief factor which leads to air pollution in Korea, the utter propensity to waste electricity.

I can't even figure out what this refers to?  I've never lived in a country where public buildings have rules about the temperature, and I've also never lived in a country where people refuse to use air conditioner in the heat of Summer on a friggin peninsula.  I don't see where all this "wasted electricity" is happening?  Please do enlighten me.  I see people turning out the lights when they are not at home, households only owning 1 tv and computer and tons of solar panels.  Where is this wasted electricity you speak of?

Where Do I see electricity being wasted? Everywhere. What you've witnessed I've witnessed too, I've seen people, institutions and businesses go to ridiculous lengths to save electricity, just as they've gone to ridiculous lengths to waste it. The observation I've made over the years is that things usually fall onto either extreme, never the middle road.

Public buildings tend to have rules about the temperature because it costs them money. The tendency being that when people
know they aren't paying for something, they'll take or use in excess. They'll refuse to use the aircon is Summer because, again,
their boss is watching. The chief concern is money, not the environment. Are you aware of the amount of plastic wasted in this country?

Last year, I got in an argument with my CT about recycling. She objected to me instructing our students, you know, the future of this country, to put the massive amounts of cardboard and plastic we used during camp into the recycling bins in our class. You wanted them to simply dump it into the regular bin since her fat ass was too lazy to carry an extra bag to the rubbish and recycling area.

Many things in SK are strictly for appearance or people simply do things out of habit rather than genuine concern.
Look past the facade.



  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 3907

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #878 on: April 09, 2019, 11:08:26 am »
On a side note these people are closely related to the Koreans. Their language even sounds similar.
Ethnicity has nothing to do with a group's propensity to pollute, if that's what you're implying.

Culturally, Mongolia and Korea don't share much in common: Korea has traditionally been dominated by Chinese values and philosophies (ie Confucianism), while Mongolia has not.

   Mongolia pollutes like crazy because it is a very poor country, and has access to a local, and very cheap supply of lignitic and bituminous coal (brown coals), which are super dirty to burn.
Also, it's economy is driven primarily by mining, which is not exactly great for the environment either.

Korea pollutes because it is extremely densely populated, has a large manufacturing industry, and because the chaebols basically run the country and profit immensely by preventing the government from implementing policies that would reduce pollution.

Also, currently, this website's single AQI measurement from Mongolia is at 203, which sucks.  :sad:

You're correct, there are many, many similarities between China and Korea, particularly the politics of playing the victim, both countries have it down to an art form. One  chief factor which leads to air pollution in Korea, the utter propensity to waste electricity.

I can't even figure out what this refers to?  I've never lived in a country where public buildings have rules about the temperature, and I've also never lived in a country where people refuse to use air conditioner in the heat of Summer on a friggin peninsula.  I don't see where all this "wasted electricity" is happening?  Please do enlighten me.  I see people turning out the lights when they are not at home, households only owning 1 tv and computer and tons of solar panels.  Where is this wasted electricity you speak of?

Where Do I see electricity being wasted? Everywhere. What you've witnessed I've witnessed too, I've seen people, institutions and businesses go to ridiculous lengths to save electricity, just as they've gone to ridiculous lengths to waste it. The observation I've made over the years is that things usually fall onto either extreme, never the middle road.

Public buildings tend to have rules about the temperature because it costs them money. The tendency being that when people
know they aren't paying for something, they'll take or use in excess. They'll refuse to use the aircon is Summer because, again,
their boss is watching. The chief concern is money, not the environment. Are you aware of the amount of plastic wasted in this country?

Last year, I got in an argument with my CT about recycling. She objected to me instructing our students, you know, the future of this country, to put the massive amounts of cardboard and plastic we used during camp into the recycling bins in our class. You wanted them to simply dump it into the regular bin since her fat ass was too lazy to carry an extra bag to the rubbish and recycling area.

Many things in SK are strictly for appearance or people simply do things out of habit rather than genuine concern.
Look past the facade.


Recycling is pretty much a sham everywhere.


  • SanderB
  • Super Waygook

    • 410

    • June 02, 2018, 06:25:54 pm
    • Gouda cheese Be Best cheese
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #879 on: April 09, 2019, 02:27:18 pm »
True.

I've given up on saving the planet completely because even if small countries would stop consuming oil and truly recycle, Russia would never stop. Screw the planet and the kids, they don't care either.
Fiat voluntas tua- All that you want is allowed