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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #680 on: December 03, 2018, 01:49:58 pm »
The majority of the bad days are indeed due to China. People need to stop quoting that flawed NASA study.
I'm not sure that I read that the study was flawed?
Can you link us something about it?

All I remember about the article is that, yes, a fair portion of pollutants come from China, but a fair bit of it is also generated locally.

 Considering that Korea is one of the most urbanized countries, has a solid manufacturing sector, has over 21 million cars, and generates about 40% of it's electricity using coal, that isn't terribly surprising.  :undecided:

As I said, watch the full video.

The 2nd half of the video is an interview with Professor Chang of the Korean Air Quality Forecasting Center, who collaborated with NASA during the research. He explains exactly why people are misinformed.
If you're still too lazy to watch the video before forming an opinion, I'll summarize what he said:

- There are 2 types of fine dust, one which mainly comes from factories and one which mainly comes from cars.
- For about 30 days of the year, 50-80% of Korea's fine dust comes from China, usually during Winter and Spring.
- The media uses the 80% figure for their headlines and reports that "80% of fine dust comes from China"
- During the other 335 days of the year, the majority of fine dust is domestically produced, Dr Chang says that the
  flat average is 60% from Korea, throughout the year.
- China's pollution is about 3x worse than Korea, but Korea while is building more coal plants, China is rapidly
  decreasing its air pollution. Eventually, Korea might be a heavier pollutant than China.

Yes that's basically what I said. When the days get into the high oranges, reds, and purples, it is directly because the crap from China is blowing over. Korea does produce most of it's own pollution (duh) but on it's own, it's not enough to spike it into the crazy unhealthy levels.

Also, China is not decreasing their pollution. They did their typical talk, but no show to the world.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-45640706

They are planning to build tons more coal power plants in an effort to move everything away from Beijing and towards the east coast where we will get screwed over even more.


  • Aristocrat
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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #681 on: December 03, 2018, 02:02:55 pm »
The majority of the bad days are indeed due to China. People need to stop quoting that flawed NASA study.
I'm not sure that I read that the study was flawed?
Can you link us something about it?

All I remember about the article is that, yes, a fair portion of pollutants come from China, but a fair bit of it is also generated locally.

 Considering that Korea is one of the most urbanized countries, has a solid manufacturing sector, has over 21 million cars, and generates about 40% of it's electricity using coal, that isn't terribly surprising.  :undecided:

As I said, watch the full video.

The 2nd half of the video is an interview with Professor Chang of the Korean Air Quality Forecasting Center, who collaborated with NASA during the research. He explains exactly why people are misinformed.
If you're still too lazy to watch the video before forming an opinion, I'll summarize what he said:

- There are 2 types of fine dust, one which mainly comes from factories and one which mainly comes from cars.
- For about 30 days of the year, 50-80% of Korea's fine dust comes from China, usually during Winter and Spring.
- The media uses the 80% figure for their headlines and reports that "80% of fine dust comes from China"
- During the other 335 days of the year, the majority of fine dust is domestically produced, Dr Chang says that the
  flat average is 60% from Korea, throughout the year.
- China's pollution is about 3x worse than Korea, but Korea while is building more coal plants, China is rapidly
  decreasing its air pollution. Eventually, Korea might be a heavier pollutant than China.

Yes that's basically what I said. When the days get into the high oranges, reds, and purples, it is directly because the crap from China is blowing over. Korea does produce most of it's own pollution (duh) but on it's own, it's not enough to spike it into the crazy unhealthy levels.

Also, China is not decreasing their pollution. They did their typical talk, but no show to the world.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-45640706

They are planning to build tons more coal power plants in an effort to move everything away from Beijing and towards the east coast where we will get screwed over even more.

If that's the approach you're going for then it would probably be best to measure best on the effect it has on our health.
Essentially, is 30 days of really bad air quality a year worse than 335 days of good to bad air quality?

Now, I can't find any studies for this, but I can say that I've definitely gotten sick from the air quality during Summer and Autumn, when nothing should be coming from China.
I can manage staying indoors 30 days out of every 365, but since I spend a lot of time outdoors, particularly during Late Spring, Summer and Autumn, the domestic pollution is going to have a greater effect on my health.



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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #682 on: December 03, 2018, 02:16:21 pm »
The majority of the bad days are indeed due to China. People need to stop quoting that flawed NASA study.
I'm not sure that I read that the study was flawed?
Can you link us something about it?

All I remember about the article is that, yes, a fair portion of pollutants come from China, but a fair bit of it is also generated locally.

 Considering that Korea is one of the most urbanized countries, has a solid manufacturing sector, has over 21 million cars, and generates about 40% of it's electricity using coal, that isn't terribly surprising.  :undecided:

As I said, watch the full video.

The 2nd half of the video is an interview with Professor Chang of the Korean Air Quality Forecasting Center, who collaborated with NASA during the research. He explains exactly why people are misinformed.
If you're still too lazy to watch the video before forming an opinion, I'll summarize what he said:

- There are 2 types of fine dust, one which mainly comes from factories and one which mainly comes from cars.
- For about 30 days of the year, 50-80% of Korea's fine dust comes from China, usually during Winter and Spring.
- The media uses the 80% figure for their headlines and reports that "80% of fine dust comes from China"
- During the other 335 days of the year, the majority of fine dust is domestically produced, Dr Chang says that the
  flat average is 60% from Korea, throughout the year.
- China's pollution is about 3x worse than Korea, but Korea while is building more coal plants, China is rapidly
  decreasing its air pollution. Eventually, Korea might be a heavier pollutant than China.
- The discrepancy comes from the fact that the media doesn't give the full story. While China is responsible for most of
  the fine dust for 30 days of the year, the rest of the time, it's mainly Korea's fault. So, on average, most of the fine
  dust is domestically produced.

      I'm not sure if this was meant as a reply to my comment, as you basically reiterated (with more concrete numbers, which is always nice) what I had said. The NASA report isn't flawed so much as it's the local media's report on it that is distorted.

    And yes, while I can be incredibly lazy, I do fully intend to watch the video once I get home. Although I always do appreciate a summary of a posted video link!  :smiley:


Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #683 on: December 03, 2018, 03:29:51 pm »

one of my pet hates is the word 'fine dust'. let's call it what it is: pollution

The way they insist on using "fine dust" even in English is how Koreans avoid making Korea lose face. They never use the words "smog" or "pollution," which point to man-made sources of pollution, which they don't want to talk about. They use terms like "fine dust" or "microdust" to conflate year-round pollution with the seasonal yellow dust which does come from China. This makes it seem like a natural phenomenon which they can't do anything about, which Koreans are fine with because they know they don't have the leverage to confront China or the Korean chaebols.

At least the media isn't ignoring it anymore, and Korean local governments are trying to do stuff like car-free days. But at the same time the government, aided by Western businesses, are building more and more coal power plants.
Quote
Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on Yesterday at 01:40:32 PM

    Trump is a liar and a con man.


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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #684 on: January 12, 2019, 10:10:07 pm »
I haven't read through the 35+ pages, so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but airbourne pollution has a synergistic effect with diet that increases the speed of atherosclerosis (plaque build up in arteries). This means that diet is especially important if you live somewhere where air quality is poor.

I think all of us who spent time in Korea may not notice it now, but may have issues later in life that we might not have if the air quality was better.
Ko fills half his luggage with instant noodles for his international business travels, a lesson he learned after assuming on his first trip that three packages would suffice for six days. “Man, was I wrong. Since then, I always make sure I pack enough.”
-AP


Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #685 on: January 13, 2019, 10:59:07 am »
I haven't read through the 35+ pages, so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but airbourne pollution has a synergistic effect with diet that increases the speed of atherosclerosis (plaque build up in arteries). This means that diet is especially important if you live somewhere where air quality is poor.

I think all of us who spent time in Korea may not notice it now, but may have issues later in life that we might not have if the air quality was better.

So 4 bottles Soju, 2 packs of ciggys and 500g of bacon a day in combination with heavy pollution isn't good for health??   But doesn't kimchi counteract all these negatives?  I better let my Korean friends know about this.


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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #686 on: January 13, 2019, 03:28:42 pm »


Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #687 on: January 13, 2019, 04:34:20 pm »
 
   Chlorella/Spirulina, Milk Thistle, lots of Vitamin D3, and Turmeric & Ginger = SORTED!


Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #688 on: January 13, 2019, 06:56:09 pm »
 
   Chlorella/Spirulina, Milk Thistle, lots of Vitamin D3, and Turmeric & Ginger = SORTED!

Not bad, but I always found a deck of Tarot cards and a portable Ouija board worked best for me when it came to air pollution.


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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #690 on: January 14, 2019, 05:41:49 pm »
Don't worry guys, the UFO Times will keep you up to date on all the important matters of the day!

Quote
Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on Yesterday at 01:40:32 PM

    Trump is a liar and a con man.


Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #691 on: January 14, 2019, 06:42:27 pm »
Don't worry guys, the UFO Times will keep you up to date on all the important matters of the day!



Uhm, I don't want to defend The Korea Times but it's their front page story.

Less critical, more thinking MayorHaggar.

http://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=261995


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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #692 on: January 14, 2019, 10:30:53 pm »
"fine dust"


Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #693 on: January 15, 2019, 01:45:56 am »
Don't worry guys, the UFO Times will keep you up to date on all the important matters of the day!



Uhm, I don't want to defend The Korea Times but it's their front page story.

Less critical, more thinking MayorHaggar.

http://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=261995

Quote
It seems Koreans do not trust the Chinese claim. Over 5,300 petitions have been posted on Cheong Wa Dae's website last year, calling on the government to take drastic measures to reduce fine dust levels, especially taking actions to prevent Chinese dust from coming over.

Build a bajillion metre high wall!


Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #694 on: January 15, 2019, 08:21:04 am »

Uhm, I don't want to defend The Korea Times but it's their front page story.

Less critical, more thinking MayorHaggar.

http://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=261995

I only see articles about "fine dust," not pollution or smog.
Quote
Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on Yesterday at 01:40:32 PM

    Trump is a liar and a con man.


Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #695 on: January 15, 2019, 08:27:12 am »
I only see articles about "fine dust," not pollution or smog.

Quote
Under the measures, a compulsory odd/even vehicle operations order was issued for state and local government buildings, restricting half of vehicles based on odd or even license plate numbers. The Seoul Metropolitan Government closed down 433 public parking lots and halted operations of 33,000 government vehicles.

In addition, old diesel vehicles weighing 2.5 tons or over, manufactured before 2005, were prohibited from entering the capital.

People were wearing masks in the streets and refraining from outdoor activities.

Regarding the source of the fine dust, a report by the National Institute of Meteorological Research said a good amount of the fine dust and air pollution originated from China.

I guess you didn't read the article thoroughly or were too concerned about your own agenda to properly process and comprehend it.

I suspect that "fine dust" is used interchangeably with micro-contaminants or other fine particulate matter.

Again, less critical, more thinking. Also, stop reading The Korea Times. Go read Joongang or one of the better, more established outlets and not the equivalent of the New York Post.


Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #696 on: January 15, 2019, 09:05:29 am »
Apart from the car restrictions - and who knows whether or not they're being properly enforced - nobody seems to be taking any extra measures. My wife works at a winter camp where few of the children had masks yesterday, and the Korean staff kept leaving doors to the outside wide open. I'm also teaching a truncated winter semester and, although yesterday most doors remained closed, the students and staff seem to leave to the doors open all the time. I don't know why it hasn't penetrated the high-performing, top IQ percentile brains in the vicinity that closing doors keeps buildings warmer and indoor air less contaminated.

Also, has anyone noticed that there is almost no correlation between wearing masks and the air pollution level? On random autumn day with good quality, it'll look like every third person is wearing a mask, for reasons I can never figure out. Then on a day like yesterday, when it's actually hazardous to breathe, it's like 1 in 10 people.


Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #697 on: January 15, 2019, 09:17:31 am »
Apart from the car restrictions - and who knows whether or not they're being properly enforced - nobody seems to be taking any extra measures. My wife works at a winter camp where few of the children had masks yesterday, and the Korean staff kept leaving doors to the outside wide open. I'm also teaching a truncated winter semester and, although yesterday most doors remained closed, the students and staff seem to leave to the doors open all the time. I don't know why it hasn't penetrated the high-performing, top IQ percentile brains in the vicinity that closing doors keeps buildings warmer and indoor air less contaminated.
A lot of Korean buildings have old ventilation systems so the doors are opened to let THOSE contaminants out. The problem is that habits die slowly and newer buildings don't need this but people still do it anyways. But usually big newer corporate buildings don't do this as much. Plus you'll see lots of other places with signs telling people to close the door or automatic mechanical door closers.

Also, fine dust tends to settle and it entering buildings is not as much of a problem.


Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #698 on: January 15, 2019, 09:28:21 am »
I don't think that there's any kind of deliberate ventilation strategy going on, but regardless... There are other health impacts to consider when one is constantly moving between a 25C classroom and unheated hallway or bathroom sitting below zero. Add to this insanity that a lot of the students are still averse to wearing socks, hats and gloves, but stand around in the giant padded coats looking miserable, clutching those disposable heatpacks between stiff, red hands. Just close the damn door.


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Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #699 on: January 15, 2019, 10:27:57 am »
It's a waste of energy to heat a classroom with the thermostat on 25C but with the classroom door open. That's making more air pollution while burning up finite natural resources.