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  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 3179

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #600 on: June 06, 2018, 07:54:50 pm »
I get concerned when I read news reports that fire fighters or people nearby the twin towers contracted cancer years after 911.

As bad as the dust flying through the air was it lasted only a single day. However in parts of Asia you have regularly bad pollution all year round.

https://vitals.lifehacker.com/see-your-citys-air-pollution-measured-in-daily-cigarett-1825659774




  • SanderB
  • Super Waygook

    • 312

    • June 02, 2018, 06:25:54 pm
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #601 on: June 07, 2018, 01:35:56 am »
I used to watch this site daily to see if it was safe to go running. It predicts YELLOW DUST.
There's some today, actually.

http://www.jma.go.jp/en/kosafcst/


green everything


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 3179

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #602 on: June 09, 2018, 05:12:39 pm »
I've often heard the quote that the world's richest 10% are responsible for more than half the world's greenhouse gases.  :huh:

Richer people are able to afford cars and other appliances. As the world gets richer- which has been happening for a while- CO2 emissions will increase.

Incidentally...

Seoul Tops Carbon Footprint List of 13,000 Cities
http://ens-newswire.com/2018/05/31/seoul-tops-carbon-footprint-list-of-13000-cities/


  • Lazio
  • Veteran

    • 129

    • January 27, 2018, 03:56:10 pm
    • Gyeongi-do
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #603 on: June 09, 2018, 07:06:42 pm »
Seoul's population is 21million? Since when? Seoul+Incheon+all Gyeongi is around 25.5 million.
Also, Guangzhou including the metropolitan area is at around 25 million and not 44 as the article says. The data they used in that research is BS, therefore their findings are all BS too.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 07:08:44 pm by Lazio »


  • JNM
  • The Legend

    • 3831

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Seoul, South Korea
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #604 on: June 09, 2018, 07:10:29 pm »
Seoul's population is 21million? Since when? Seoul+Incheon+all Gyeongi is around 25.5 million.
Also, Guangzhou including the metropolitan area is at around 25 million and not 44 as the article says. The data they used in that research is BS, therefore their findings are all BS too.
Counting "and area" populations is a bit of a game.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 3179

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #605 on: June 09, 2018, 08:27:51 pm »
The data they used in that research is BS, therefore their findings are all BS too.

Actually it could be two different things. Websites often reference a study (written by someone else).

This one looks legit:
https://geminiresearchnews.com/2018/05/new-study-estimates-carbon-footprints-13000-cities/




  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 3179

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #606 on: June 18, 2018, 05:35:07 pm »
Guangzhou including the metropolitan area is at around 25 million and not 44 as the article says. The data they used in that research is BS, therefore their findings are all BS too.

Numbers vary according to how district lines are drawn / who's reporting the data? This link says Guangzhou's metropolitan area is 44,259,000.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_cities#Largest_cities

http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20180610000136

The Norwegian University of Science and Technology is a high ranked school, meaning it's unlikely their study is BS.


  • Lazio
  • Veteran

    • 129

    • January 27, 2018, 03:56:10 pm
    • Gyeongi-do
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #607 on: June 18, 2018, 10:45:43 pm »
Guangzhou including the metropolitan area is at around 25 million and not 44 as the article says. The data they used in that research is BS, therefore their findings are all BS too.

Numbers vary according to how district lines are drawn / who's reporting the data? This link says Guangzhou's metropolitan area is 44,259,000.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_cities#Largest_cities

http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20180610000136

The Norwegian University of Science and Technology is a high ranked school, meaning it's unlikely their study is BS.

It appears they used completely random population data from wherever they could find them. The same link that you referred to, puts the Seoul Metro to 12 million something.

I don't know the Guangzhou area so that 44 might be true. But I know the Korean situation, I know how big Gyeongi is and how "metropolitan" it is in the rice fields of Icheon or the mountains of Gapyeong.

But even if their population data was perfectly accurate, the findings are still just an educated guess or not even that. They used income as a proxy to determine the carbon footprint. In the same way they could say that Seoul is one of the richest cities in the World. (Combined income or assets by its population)

So yeah, Seoul is a huge city end especially if you count another 10,000 square kilometers around it as Seoul, then you will end up with a lot of superlatives. And on top of this, you sum up any random thing that is directly linked to population:

- Seoul has the most punctured tires in the World

- Seoul has one of the highest disabled population

- Seoul has the highest number of game addicts

- Seoul ranks top 3 in cancer related deaths

- Seoul is the second most sexually active city
« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 10:55:47 pm by Lazio »


Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #608 on: June 19, 2018, 05:45:17 am »
Guangzhou including the metropolitan area is at around 25 million and not 44 as the article says. The data they used in that research is BS, therefore their findings are all BS too.

Numbers vary according to how district lines are drawn / who's reporting the data? This link says Guangzhou's metropolitan area is 44,259,000.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_cities#Largest_cities

http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20180610000136

The Norwegian University of Science and Technology is a high ranked school, meaning it's unlikely their study is BS.

It appears they used completely random population data from wherever they could find them. The same link that you referred to, puts the Seoul Metro to 12 million something.

I don't know the Guangzhou area so that 44 might be true. But I know the Korean situation, I know how big Gyeongi is and how "metropolitan" it is in the rice fields of Icheon or the mountains of Gapyeong.

But even if their population data was perfectly accurate, the findings are still just an educated guess or not even that. They used income as a proxy to determine the carbon footprint. In the same way they could say that Seoul is one of the richest cities in the World. (Combined income or assets by its population)

So yeah, Seoul is a huge city end especially if you count another 10,000 square kilometers around it as Seoul, then you will end up with a lot of superlatives. And on top of this, you sum up any random thing that is directly linked to population:

- Seoul has the most punctured tires in the World

- Seoul has one of the highest disabled population

- Seoul has the highest number of game addicts

- Seoul ranks top 3 in cancer related deaths

- Seoul is the second most sexually active city

Yeah this study is interesting if you want to look at the notion of a city-wide carbon footprint, and Seoul/Gyeonggi probably is one of the most polluting places per capita in the world if you just look at the combination of population density with appliance/car ownership and resulting pollution. But at the same time Seoul/Gyeonggi is far less polluted than your average Chinese megacity, public transportation is convenient and heavily used, and the massive number of apartment dwellings means there is a lot less pollution than there could be. If Koreans lived like Westerners you'd never see the sun.
Quote
Quote from: Mr.DeMartino on Yesterday at 01:40:32 PM

    Trump is a liar and a con man.


  • Lazio
  • Veteran

    • 129

    • January 27, 2018, 03:56:10 pm
    • Gyeongi-do
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #609 on: June 19, 2018, 07:46:52 am »
Btw. The same study says that Seoul is the 200th if you count ''per capita'' footprint.


  • hangook77
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1018

    • September 14, 2017, 09:10:12 am
    • Near Busan
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #610 on: June 19, 2018, 08:19:47 am »
Guangzhou including the metropolitan area is at around 25 million and not 44 as the article says. The data they used in that research is BS, therefore their findings are all BS too.

Numbers vary according to how district lines are drawn / who's reporting the data? This link says Guangzhou's metropolitan area is 44,259,000.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_cities#Largest_cities

http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20180610000136

The Norwegian University of Science and Technology is a high ranked school, meaning it's unlikely their study is BS.

It appears they used completely random population data from wherever they could find them. The same link that you referred to, puts the Seoul Metro to 12 million something.

I don't know the Guangzhou area so that 44 might be true. But I know the Korean situation, I know how big Gyeongi is and how "metropolitan" it is in the rice fields of Icheon or the mountains of Gapyeong.

But even if their population data was perfectly accurate, the findings are still just an educated guess or not even that. They used income as a proxy to determine the carbon footprint. In the same way they could say that Seoul is one of the richest cities in the World. (Combined income or assets by its population)

So yeah, Seoul is a huge city end especially if you count another 10,000 square kilometers around it as Seoul, then you will end up with a lot of superlatives. And on top of this, you sum up any random thing that is directly linked to population:

- Seoul has the most punctured tires in the World

- Seoul has one of the highest disabled population

- Seoul has the highest number of game addicts

- Seoul ranks top 3 in cancer related deaths

- Seoul is the second most sexually active city

Bolded.  Here use of the word METRO only means the city itself.  It's like something got mistranslated eyars ago and they are still running with it.  Seoul Metropolitan City actually just means Seoul City Limits.  Add in Gyeong gi do and the population soars.  Seoul and Gyeong gi is around 25 million.  For years, it was the second biggest city in the world after Tokyo. 

However, China is coming on strong.  They have official population counts and unofficial ones as migrants aren't suppose to be there.  America thinks it has problems with illegal immigration.  Well, look at China with what they call illegal immigration from within their own country, their fellow citizens who speak their own language.  At least in America, you can move and live where ever you want as long as you're in the country legally.  Only thing keeping people out of some places are high rents, I guess.


  • Lazio
  • Veteran

    • 129

    • January 27, 2018, 03:56:10 pm
    • Gyeongi-do
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #611 on: June 19, 2018, 08:36:55 am »
Actually the population of Seoul city proper is just slightly below 10 million.


  • hangook77
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1018

    • September 14, 2017, 09:10:12 am
    • Near Busan
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #612 on: June 19, 2018, 11:24:44 am »
Actually the population of Seoul city proper is just slightly below 10 million.

Of course.  It has shrunk slightly due to the cost.  But real Metro is closer to 25 million.  Metro as western term (Seoul and Gyeong gi do).


  • hangook77
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1018

    • September 14, 2017, 09:10:12 am
    • Near Busan
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #613 on: June 19, 2018, 11:25:18 am »
Actually the population of Seoul city proper is just slightly below 10 million.

Of course.  It has shrunk slightly due to the cost.  But real Metro is closer to 25 million.  Metro as western term (Seoul and Gyeong gi do).



  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 3179

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #614 on: June 19, 2018, 04:33:30 pm »
They used income as a proxy to determine the carbon footprint. In the same way they could say that Seoul is one of the richest cities in the World. (Combined income or assets by its population)

Huh? Where are you getting that? Tokyo has both more people and more riches than Seoul but a smaller carbon footprint.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 3179

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #615 on: June 19, 2018, 04:36:06 pm »
Btw. The same study says that Seoul is the 200th if you count ''per capita'' footprint.

200th out of 13,000 is very, very high. Almost in the top 1%. 98.46th percentile. 


  • Lazio
  • Veteran

    • 129

    • January 27, 2018, 03:56:10 pm
    • Gyeongi-do
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #616 on: June 19, 2018, 08:08:18 pm »
They used income as a proxy to determine the carbon footprint. In the same way they could say that Seoul is one of the richest cities in the World. (Combined income or assets by its population)

Huh? Where are you getting that? Tokyo has both more people and more riches than Seoul but a smaller carbon footprint.

"One of the key drivers behind the model is the by-now widely accepted paradigm that income is a strong predictor of carbon footprint.

If you think about it, it makes sense: the more disposable income you have, the more likely you are to purchase goods, or fly to a far-away country, or drive a fancy car. So they used income as a proxy for carbon footprint intensity. It’s not a perfect proxy – some of the world’s ultra-rich live in relative modesty – but as a general rule it’s shown to hold up.

They also used national statistics on the composition of urban versus rural spending patterns, regional purchasing power data from a private market intelligence firm, and a population map.

The result is a global model that predicts the purchasing power, population, and purchasing patterns for every grid cell worldwide. "

https://geminiresearchnews.com/2018/05/new-study-estimates-carbon-footprints-13000-cities/

I can only guess why Tokyo didn't come out higher on that list. For one, there are way less vehicles per capita in Tokyo than in Seoul. Not only that but Korea has a very high share of diesel vehicles whereas Japan doesn't.
Tokyo's average living space per person is also lower than in Seoul although the difference may not be that big.
And finally the fact that Japan's energy generation is somewhat "greener" compared to Korea. Think about all the coal power plants.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 3179

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #617 on: June 19, 2018, 08:29:50 pm »
Are we looking at the same article?

Quote
One of the key drivers behind the model is the by-now widely accepted paradigm that income is a strong predictor of carbon footprint.

If you think about it, it makes sense: the more disposable income you have, the more likely you are to purchase goods, or fly to a far-away country, or drive a fancy car. So they used income as a proxy for carbon footprint intensity. It’s not a perfect proxy – some of the world’s ultra-rich live in relative modesty – but as a general rule it’s shown to hold up.

They then used data from other published research to calculate and refine carbon footprint numbers at the national and subnational level.

Their global model makes use of existing carbon footprint estimates for 31,000 US ZIP codes plus state and province level results for the EU, UK, China, and Japan. They also used national statistics on the composition of urban versus rural spending patterns, regional purchasing power data from a private market intelligence firm, and a population map.

The result is a global model that predicts the purchasing power, population, and purchasing patterns for every grid cell worldwide.

The bolded part is important; not sure why you snipped it out.


  • Lazio
  • Veteran

    • 129

    • January 27, 2018, 03:56:10 pm
    • Gyeongi-do
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #618 on: June 19, 2018, 09:33:23 pm »
Are we looking at the same article?

The bolded part is important; not sure why you snipped it out.

You do know what proxy means in statistics, right?

I didn't say the whole study was based only on income. I wrote what the article said: They used income as a proxy.
You asked where I was getting it from so I gave you the link. I didn't want to quote the whole thing so I removed a part in the middle.


  • L I
  • The Legend

    • 3179

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Air pollution - bad enough to leave Korea?
« Reply #619 on: June 21, 2018, 04:46:37 am »
You said the study's BS... but previous stats have shown Korea to be a big emitter of CO2. So not BS would be my guess.