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  • jackdaniels
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1133

    • September 18, 2009, 02:00:00 pm
China military sends air patrols through new defense zone
« on: November 29, 2013, 06:46:14 pm »
Quote
BEIJING/WASHINGTON (Reuters) - China sent several fighter jets and an early warning aircraft into its new air defense zone over the East China Sea, state news agency Xinhua said on Friday, raising the stakes in a standoff with the United States, Japan and South Korea.

Japan and South Korea also flew military aircraft through the zone, the two nations said on Thursday, while Washington sent two unarmed B-52 bombers into the airspace earlier this week in a sign of support for its ally Japan. None of those aircraft informed Beijing.
Complete article follow link.

http://news.yahoo.com/china-military-sends-air-patrols-defense-zone-033423305.html

It seems everyone is testing China's self proclaimed "new air defense zone over the East China Sea".

I think waygook.org should send some 'peace ballons' that way.  ;D


  • a87
  • Super Waygook

    • 330

    • July 21, 2013, 12:31:10 am
Re: China military sends air patrols through new defense zone
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2013, 01:01:56 pm »
This is definitely cause for Korea to bury the hatchet with Japan and try to work together to keep China at bay. Japan isn't the enemy anymore.
Take that apologists!


  • Epistemology
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1906

    • September 19, 2010, 01:57:27 pm
    more
Re: China military sends air patrols through new defense zone
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2013, 03:45:55 pm »
This is definitely cause for Korea to bury the hatchet with Japan and try to work together to keep China at bay. Japan isn't the enemy anymore.

It looks like that might be happening:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/02/us-china-rescind-air-defence-zone-confrontation-japan

Quote
Biden’s trip enables him to have face-to-face contact with all the regional players with a stake in the controversy, including South Korea, where he will spend two days meeting senior government officials at the end of the week.

South Korea, which has strained relations with Japan, is also being sucked into the dispute. Local reports indicate that Seoul is in the final stages of expanding its own six-decade-old air defense identification zone southward, which would overlap with territory claimed by China.

The move comes after a defense consultation last week between China and South Korea failed to reassure Seoul that China’s expanded zone was aimed exclusively at Japan.

The senior government official said one unintended consequence of China’s declaration could be that Japan and South Korea, rivals undergoing a particularly strained relations at the moment, will be brought closer together. The official said the two countries were expected to “compare notes” over how to respond to China’s move – and high-level meetings between the two countries remain a possibility.

Maybe both countries will grow the hell up now and realise that they are not enemies. They need to come to an understanding with India, the Philippines, Indonesia, Brunei Malaysia, Taiwan and Vietnam. Each and every one of those countries has territory that China wants, and it will get that if it threatens them into submission one at a time. Gunboat diplomacy only works if the targets are divided.
Away an bile yer heid ya numpty,ye dinnae ken whit yer talkin aboot.


  • Emonkey
  • Waygookin

    • 16

    • December 03, 2013, 09:17:13 pm
    • Tokyo
Re: China military sends air patrols through new defense zone
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2013, 09:46:48 pm »
Seems like a Jong-Il esque bout of brinkmanship to me. Chinese government whipping up a bit of nationalism because of disquiet at home maybe? America gets a raised influence around here as well because suddenly their military presence is almost essential, what with China flexing its muscle. Everyone is a winner.

 


  • confusedsafferinkorea
  • Waygook Lord

    • 5547

    • October 08, 2010, 01:02:32 pm
    • Zhubei, Hsinchu Province, Taiwan
    more
Re: China military sends air patrols through new defense zone
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2013, 03:16:31 am »
China really makes me sick. I love the Chinese people and have quite a few Chinese friends but their government sucks nearly as much as my government.   >:(
There is no known medical cure for stupidity!


Re: China military sends air patrols through new defense zone
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2013, 07:44:25 am »
Can we really blame the Chinese for not being happy with how East Asia has developed since the beginnings of European imperialism in Asia? Are they really getting their fair share? No one is going to give up land that may or may not be 'rightfully' theirs without a fight. China wants to bring it. They've got money and 1.5 billion people to back it up.
It's appeasement time in East Asia and it's going to cost everyone. Also pinning all the blame on the government is misleading, I saw the Chinese people rioting on the streets over land disputes with Japan. They've been whipped up into a frenzy and it's not just the propagandists' fault.


  • btpham13
  • Expert Waygook

    • 509

    • February 28, 2011, 11:02:04 am
    • Korea
Re: China military sends air patrols through new defense zone
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2013, 07:47:34 am »
Can we really blame the Chinese for not being happy with how East Asia has developed since the beginnings of European imperialism in Asia?

As an American that doesn't want to delve into the complex issues of East Asian history, here is my simple minded response:

Yes.


  • Chadwickhhs
  • Expert Waygook

    • 797

    • February 28, 2012, 07:04:14 pm
    more
Re: China military sends air patrols through new defense zone
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2013, 08:02:40 am »
Can we really blame the Chinese for not being happy with how East Asia has developed since the beginnings of European imperialism in Asia?

As an American that doesn't want to delve into the complex issues of East Asian history, here is my simple minded response:

Yes.
Good, simple answer.

Everything that China has now doesn't even belong to them. You don't need to learn Asian history beyond the 1960s when a rebel group violently hijacked the government and forced the actual government to relocate to Taiwan.

China today shouldn't even be on the UN security council. It's not the same China that helped us in the World Wars. (Similarly, Russian Federation is not the USSR and shouldn't be on as well. Imagine the UN without the two of them having veto power. It'd actually get work done.)

So it'd be like if the worst of the Syrian rebels won and started attacking every country around them and people said "is it really their fault that they're not happy with the development of eastern Europe?" The answer is still "yes."


  • Epistemology
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1906

    • September 19, 2010, 01:57:27 pm
    more
Re: China military sends air patrols through new defense zone
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2013, 08:42:03 am »
Can we really blame the Chinese for not being happy with how East Asia has developed since the beginnings of European imperialism in Asia? Are they really getting their fair share? No one is going to give up land that may or may not be 'rightfully' theirs without a fight. China wants to bring it. They've got money and 1.5 billion people to back it up.
It's appeasement time in East Asia and it's going to cost everyone. Also pinning all the blame on the government is misleading, I saw the Chinese people rioting on the streets over land disputes with Japan. They've been whipped up into a frenzy and it's not just the propagandists' fault.

The government is pretty much to blame for that though. They created the storm when they tried to divert attention away from the corruption scandals of 2012 by trumpeting nationalism (like all governments do). Add to that the revanchism over the past 100 years that's drilled into the people from elementary school (by the government!). That happens here too, but its much harder to control 1.4 billion people than it is to control 50 million
Away an bile yer heid ya numpty,ye dinnae ken whit yer talkin aboot.


  • rocketeerjoe
  • Expert Waygook

    • 769

    • March 08, 2012, 07:52:35 am
    • Jinhae, South Korea
Re: China military sends air patrols through new defense zone
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2013, 08:55:20 am »
Quote
China today shouldn't even be on the UN security council. It's not the same China that helped us in the World Wars. (Similarly, Russian Federation is not the USSR and shouldn't be on as well. Imagine the UN without the two of them having veto power. It'd actually get work done.)


Work like an invasion of Syria in a vain attempt to keep the petrodollar from sliding? So we can provoke a war with Iran? Obama is doing his best to convince us of that supposed necessary military action but I'll thank Putin myself for stopping that huge debacle from taking place.

Also, the US government betrayed its own people by not making outsourcing to China illegal from the get go. We gave them the world economy on a silver platter. The 1% got rich off the cheap labor and the middle and lower classes got nothing.

What is happening with frequency is China pushing the limits of its influence, invading the Philippines fishing grounds, etc. Maybe they just want to show everyone who is boss now that they have Congress in the ultimate financial dependence they are providing. It's disgusting. The US government disgusts me for its lack of patriotism, its utter sell out to a communist regime with nothing but world domination on its mind.

It's probably going to come to either China dictating US policy altogether behind closed doors (which if immigration rates from China continue will blow up into violence in the US) or a World War unless they are able to abandon oil as a means of replacing the gold standard and overthrow the Federal Reserve altogether and imprison thousands in the US for treason.
"If you want to change your direction. If your time of life is at hand. Well, then don't be the rule, be the exception. A good place to start is to stand. Just put one foot in front of the other." - Rankin Bass Santa Claus


Re: China military sends air patrols through new defense zone
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2013, 10:59:46 am »
Can we really blame the Chinese for not being happy with how East Asia has developed since the beginnings of European imperialism in Asia?

As an American that doesn't want to delve into the complex issues of East Asian history, here is my simple minded response:

Yes.
Good, simple answer.

Everything that China has now doesn't even belong to them. You don't need to learn Asian history beyond the 1960s when a rebel group violently hijacked the government and forced the actual government to relocate to Taiwan.

China today shouldn't even be on the UN security council. It's not the same China that helped us in the World Wars. (Similarly, Russian Federation is not the USSR and shouldn't be on as well. Imagine the UN without the two of them having veto power. It'd actually get work done.)

So it'd be like if the worst of the Syrian rebels won and started attacking every country around them and people said "is it really their fault that they're not happy with the development of eastern Europe?" The answer is still "yes."

I like how you prefaced these ridiculously ill informed statements with "you don't need to know anything about East Asian history". You can definitely argue those positions but after having actually done the leg work on the topic myself I wouldn't agree with any of them aside from the Chinese government not being a very legitimate ally to "Western values".


Re: China military sends air patrols through new defense zone
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2013, 11:44:33 am »
I'm reminded of a fat kid stepping into the sandbox, grabbing all the toys and saying "That's mine... And that's mine... That's mine..."


  • Chadwickhhs
  • Expert Waygook

    • 797

    • February 28, 2012, 07:04:14 pm
    more
Re: China military sends air patrols through new defense zone
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2013, 11:51:28 am »
I like how you prefaced these ridiculously ill informed statements with "you don't need to know anything about East Asian history". You can definitely argue those positions but after having actually done the leg work on the topic myself I wouldn't agree with any of them aside from the Chinese government not being a very legitimate ally to "Western values".
Enlighten me what was ill informed. Did the Mao inspired communist party not violently overthrow the rule of law in China and chase its executive officials out of the mainland?

Did those officials not then relocate and establish the Republic of China headquarters in Taiwan?

Modern China (People's Republic of) is not part of Imperialist East Asian history. The revolutionaries dislocated the government violently/illegitimately and yet still claim all the assets of the previous regime they hated. It doesn't work that way. In law continuity matters. If you kill or remove a person in standing you don't become the new locus standi. Global politics isn't Highlander.


Re: China military sends air patrols through new defense zone
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2013, 12:42:26 pm »
Quote
"The authority to establish an ADIZ is not given by any international treaty nor prohibited by international law and is not regulated by any international body."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Defense_Identification_Zone

It's a pretty arrogant assumption to think that Chinese have no right to change their ADIZ. They just made what is known as the first move. There is a possibility that they will negotiate the boundaries if USA Korea and Japan invite them to negotiations and behave. I see this as showing their cards and forcing the other players back to the table. The last time they played this game was in the 1950s, things have changed since then.

It's not like they shot down a plane and then produced a map of why they did it. They technically have done nothing wrong yet other than act unusual by overlapping with their neighbors before talking. They are spending a lot on their military and it's only natural they want a pay out and the right to use it for defense and peace. Obviously it's threatening to the status quo, and I remain skeptical of the peaceful nature of expanding militarization.


  • Emonkey
  • Waygookin

    • 16

    • December 03, 2013, 09:17:13 pm
    • Tokyo
Re: China military sends air patrols through new defense zone
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2013, 01:27:50 pm »
I don't look at this stuff in right and wrong anymore. Many countries have expanded in the way China seems intent on. I'm biased towards them not getting too powerful though as I'm a westerner


Re: China military sends air patrols through new defense zone
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2013, 02:14:04 pm »
I like how you prefaced these ridiculously ill informed statements with "you don't need to know anything about East Asian history". You can definitely argue those positions but after having actually done the leg work on the topic myself I wouldn't agree with any of them aside from the Chinese government not being a very legitimate ally to "Western values".
Enlighten me what was ill informed. Did the Mao inspired communist party not violently overthrow the rule of law in China and chase its executive officials out of the mainland?

Did those officials not then relocate and establish the Republic of China headquarters in Taiwan?

Modern China (People's Republic of) is not part of Imperialist East Asian history. The revolutionaries dislocated the government violently/illegitimately and yet still claim all the assets of the previous regime they hated. It doesn't work that way. In law continuity matters. If you kill or remove a person in standing you don't become the new locus standi. Global politics isn't Highlander.

Chiang Kai Shek and his government was so thoroughly corrupt that even with the initial anti-communist aid he received he was completely unable to keep his shambles of a government together against any kind of internal pressure. Giving what he called a government the "rule of law" is extremely generous in any circumstance. It was so rotten that even post-WWII American anti-communist hatred wasn't enough to keep America interested in preserving that status quo.

Mao didn't rise peacefully, nobody disputes that, but its not anything new. Chiang Kai Shek wasn't an elected leader and his government didn't peacefully subsume the previous Qing Dynasty either. You have to reach a lot further back than the declaration of the PROC to find "legitimate continuity" in China's government. The British cracked them with the first Opium War and the second one was the sign for everyone else to join the party with gusto and the Century of Humiliation continued for more than the 100 years technically allotted to a century.

China was an absolute mess until Mao took it over (and it stayed a mess internally for decades after unfortunately). What makes the legacy of his government legitimate is that it still stands and that everyone accepts it. I agree that continuity is ideal but in practice it doesn't matter as long you can stake your claim and stick to it long enough for everyone else to lose interest. At this point Taiwan isn't even particularly interested in "returning to its rightful place" as the head of mainland China. Giving it priority over the legitimacy of mainland China is pedantry that at this point literally every country other than a very few (dwindling) African ones affords.


Re: China military sends air patrols through new defense zone
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2013, 02:20:34 pm »
I'm reminded of a fat kid stepping into the sandbox, grabbing all the toys and saying "That's mine... And that's mine... That's mine..."


FUNNY! made me laugh-thanks
"Keep 'em comin', sweets, I got a long drive. Do me a favor, will you? Would you mind washing off that perfume before you come back to our table?"

Ernie McCracken


  • rocketeerjoe
  • Expert Waygook

    • 769

    • March 08, 2012, 07:52:35 am
    • Jinhae, South Korea
Re: China military sends air patrols through new defense zone
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2013, 03:20:40 pm »
I'm reminded of a fat kid stepping into the sandbox, grabbing all the toys and saying "That's mine... And that's mine... That's mine..."

I honestly don't know if you're referring to China or the US here.

Either way, I hope China winds up tripping over its fat little legs and eating a pile full of sand.
"If you want to change your direction. If your time of life is at hand. Well, then don't be the rule, be the exception. A good place to start is to stand. Just put one foot in front of the other." - Rankin Bass Santa Claus


  • cinamon
  • Super Waygook

    • 263

    • May 18, 2010, 12:15:53 pm
Re: China military sends air patrols through new defense zone
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2013, 04:56:05 pm »
Hooorrayyy!!!  Real life Game of Thrones!!  Woot! Woot!
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 04:58:10 pm by cinamon »


  • Emonkey
  • Waygookin

    • 16

    • December 03, 2013, 09:17:13 pm
    • Tokyo
Re: China military sends air patrols through new defense zone
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2013, 05:04:57 pm »
I'm reminded of a fat kid stepping into the sandbox, grabbing all the toys and saying "That's mine... And that's mine... That's mine..."

I honestly don't know if you're referring to China or the US here.

Either way, I hope China winds up tripping over its fat little legs and eating a pile full of sand.

 Well he did say fat kid so.....