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Re: Homework agencies’ a boon for busy students
« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2013, 07:53:56 am »
Show some moral leadership.
Lol, that's cute. Although most of us have already said cheating is not really a moral issue.
I'm not encouraging cheating. I suppose by not punishing it, I'm not discouraging it either.
I do think the realistic solution though is to encourage cheating and have most things done 'open book'. Throw out the multiple choice questions that are too easy to cheat on and use things like in class essays which are impossible to effectively cheat on. Have effort marks, take home assignments are silly to assign high marks to.


Society has shaped us teachers to teach how they want us to teach. No one wants to see their child expelled or forbidden to take a test in the future because of cheating.
Children aren't adults, we cannot treat them like adults, they can be compelled to cheat for many reasons.


  • gtrain83
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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    • August 27, 2011, 10:26:20 am
Re: Homework agencies’ a boon for busy students
« Reply #61 on: November 20, 2013, 08:00:03 am »
Show some moral leadership.
Lol, that's cute. Although most of us have already said cheating is not really a moral issue.
I'm not encouraging cheating. I suppose by not punishing it, I'm not discouraging it either.
I do think the realistic solution though is to encourage cheating and have most things done 'open book'. Throw out the multiple choice questions that are too easy to cheat on and use things like in class essays which are impossible to effectively cheat on. Have effort marks, take home assignments are silly to assign high marks to.


Society has shaped us teachers to teach how they want us to teach. No one wants to see their child expelled or forbidden to take a test in the future because of cheating.
Children aren't adults, we cannot treat them like adults, they can be compelled to cheat for many reasons.


Didn't the mom, an adult, do the cheating though?



  • matthewm12
  • Veteran

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    • August 31, 2011, 02:41:25 pm
    • South Korea
Re: Homework agencies’ a boon for busy students
« Reply #62 on: November 20, 2013, 08:23:44 am »
In the short term I would say if the cheating isn't directly effecting the other students then ignore it. However I do believe that the mother is setting up many cycles that she or he will have to endure in the long-term. Will her son always expect him to do his homework, even when it's inconvenient to the mother for whatever reason? (she gets sick, hw agencies increase fees, hw agencies are phased out, etc)

Also,  perhaps the mother is teaching her son that parents should do homework for their children? He better look forward to doing the homework as an adult or hope that the homework agencies are still in business since he probably never learned anything well enough through cheating.


  • Ley_Druid
  • The Legend

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    • February 17, 2011, 08:36:33 am
    • Shinan-Gun, Jeollanam-Do, South Korea
Re: Homework agencies’ a boon for busy students
« Reply #63 on: November 20, 2013, 08:54:56 am »
Isn't cheating and helping your child with everything wrong? Doesn't it teach the child to be dependent on his/er mom? Does that help set them up for failure later in life? Are they going to phone in their project at their future job to their parents? And what will they teach their children? Go to Grandma?


  • nschenk512
  • Super Waygook

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    • March 04, 2013, 08:52:49 am
    • Busan, South Korea
Re: Homework agencies’ a boon for busy students
« Reply #64 on: November 20, 2013, 10:06:54 am »
I would argue that only serial cheaters should get the harshest punishment. Otherwise, it would be up to schools to implement punishments. It could go something like this.

First time caught: student re-submits the assignment having completed it in front of the teacher, to be done during lunch or after school.

Second time caught: same as above, and a letter home to parents re: the zero tolerance cheating policy.

Third time caught: student will stay after school for 4 days to complete extra worksheets

Subsequent cheating or cheating on district/national tests: Banned from taking the 수능 for at least 5 years. In the age based society that Korea has, this will cause no end of trouble.


Re: Homework agencies’ a boon for busy students
« Reply #65 on: November 20, 2013, 10:26:42 am »
A: Don't cheat, be honest, and score low on the tests.  He has a 0% chance of getting into a university.
B: Cheat and score higher than he should.  Enough to do well for a university placement. 
B1: The chance of him being caught and not getting into a university is 75% (as assumed from above).  So there's still a 75% chance he won't get into a university. This is the same outcome of option A.
B2: However, the chances of him NOT getting caught and getting into a university is 25%.  There's a 25% chance he can get into a university by cheating.

If he doesn't cheat, he has as 0% chance of getting into a university.  By cheating, he has increased his odds of getting into a university to 25%.


Enough lazy kids cheat, steal enough spots from the hardworking kids, and then the hardworking kids think they need to cheat too, and we're back to square one. 

The only way I see this policy actually working is if they catch 100% of all the cheaters, which is almost impossible.

This is why I think we as educators need to work to create an idea in their brains that cheating is not just going to get your punished, but it's going to get your punished because it's a morally wrong thing to do.

Let us consider America again.  If convicted of possession of marijuana will get you will go to federal prison for an amount of time.  Not county jail, federal prison.  That's the anal rape prison.   I can't speak for everyone, but I think that buttrape is not a suitable punishment for possession of a plant.  That is - the punishment does not fit the crime.

Nonetheless, even in the face of extreme punishments, people continue to buy sell and consume marijuana.  Similarly, I feel that doling out harsh punishments for cheating will not deter Koreans from cheating unless they feel that it is morally wrong and shameful to do so.

To continue with the MJ example:  Andong.  Andong makes two things:  Soju and hemp. 

Soju http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andong_soju

Hemp  http://www.invil.org/english/speciality/others/silkFabric/contents.jsp?con_no=101931&page_no=1

Yet with hemp being out in the open and (presumably) unguarded, there aren't a lot of Koreans (that I know of) smoking it.  It is my opinion that this is because Koreans as a society feel it is a morally wrong thing to do.

Harsh punishments:  ineffective.
Education about morals: effective.

This is fortunate for us, because while we are not in a position to influence policy, we do have access to impressionable young minds during their formative years. We have the opportunity to influence their thinking.

Are there any G rated movies you can think of where the protagonist gets utterly screwed over due to cheating or corruption?  Movies about cheating in sports or whatever?  Like 1980s skiing team movies? 

"The Karate Kid" comes to mind.  But surely there must be more.  We're finishing up our textbooks and exams are soon.  I think we can use the post-exam period movie time not as time filler, but a chance to put things in our students' brains.


Re: Homework agencies’ a boon for busy students
« Reply #66 on: November 20, 2013, 03:08:26 pm »
I wonder how many people here have actually never cheated in their lives. I have before in school, and I've also been accused of cheating when I did nothing wrong. It's just one of those things that happens. No one's gonna stamp it out completely and would probably just cause other problems if they tried.

I'm also curious to see what our moral superheros think about things like downloading movies and music illegally, or speeding while driving, or trying to talk your way out of a ticket for speeding, or jaywalking, or not reporting lost money to the authorities. I mean, there are plenty of things that people think are wrong and that they just don't care about. It happens.
But I'm not a marine biologist....


  • btpham13
  • Expert Waygook

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Re: Homework agencies’ a boon for busy students
« Reply #67 on: November 21, 2013, 07:43:33 am »
Quote
I wonder how many people here have actually never cheated in their lives.

Trust me, everyone who has responded here has cheated at some time in their lives. And those who protest too much are probably guilty of it the most. The mental trick that they pull on themselves, though, is, "Yeah, I cheated, but..." Because of course, in their case, there was always a good reason, or no other choice, and you know, it wasn't *really* cheating. Not like those Koreans...

This is the nonsense of life. The other is always so much worse than your own group. Their vices define them, whereas your vices are marginal, hardly ever happening except in the rare case.

Excellent point.  (I'll admit, I have also cheated in the past.)

Thank you, kind stranger on this internet forum, for restoring some faith in the humankind.


Re: Homework agencies’ a boon for busy students
« Reply #68 on: November 21, 2013, 09:40:40 am »
Korea doesn't have 2000+ years of Christianity to make people feel guilt or shame.  Even athiests and agnostics in the west still have this fiber deep inside them.  It's what allows us to feel this 'moral compass'.  Shame is greater than guilt in Asian culture, along with fear of extreme punishment.  If you didn't bow properly to a samurai or to king sejong, you got your head cut off, end of story.  Shame keeps most people in line, but not getting caught, then no guilt and go for it. 


  • nschenk512
  • Super Waygook

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    • March 04, 2013, 08:52:49 am
    • Busan, South Korea
Re: Homework agencies’ a boon for busy students
« Reply #69 on: November 21, 2013, 09:55:03 am »
To continue with the MJ example:  Andong.  Andong makes two things:  Soju and hemp. 

Soju http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andong_soju

Hemp  http://www.invil.org/english/speciality/others/silkFabric/contents.jsp?con_no=101931&page_no=1

Yet with hemp being out in the open and (presumably) unguarded, there aren't a lot of Koreans (that I know of) smoking it.  It is my opinion that this is because Koreans as a society feel it is a morally wrong thing to do.


It's entirely possible that people tried to smoke it and realize that the variety of plant doesn't have measurable amounts of THC, since it's industrial hemp and not the variety that is used in marijuana.


  • Kyndo
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Re: Homework agencies’ a boon for busy students
« Reply #70 on: November 21, 2013, 10:15:41 am »
Quote
I wonder how many people here have actually never cheated in their lives.

Trust me, everyone who has responded here has cheated at some time in their lives.

I don't really think that this is the issue here. Of course everybody here has cheated (and lied, stolen, killed, worked on sabbath).

I think what is more interesting is the institutional response to people cheating. Universities back home are notoriously unforgiving with cheating (they recognize that it's a problem and implement harsh punishments). Generally, as a society, we don't sympathize with the cheaters.
OP's article was interesting to me because it showed a very different response: rather than society discouraging the cheaters, people are actually opening up public businesses to facilitate cheating. This implicitly exonerates and encourages dishonesty and cheating.

To me that illustrates a difference in how cheating is perceived between the two cultures.


Is it morally wrong? I would argue yes, as it hurts society as a whole. Other people apparently disagree, which is cool --  as long as they give reasons that make more sense than "It's not wrong because everybody here has cheated at some point in their lives."

Hypocrisy is annoying, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate the hypocrite's opinions/judgement.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 10:25:07 am by kyndo »


Re: Homework agencies’ a boon for busy students
« Reply #71 on: November 21, 2013, 12:54:48 pm »
Quote
I wonder how many people here have actually never cheated in their lives.

Trust me, everyone who has responded here has cheated at some time in their lives.

I don't really think that this is the issue here. Of course everybody here has cheated (and lied, stolen, killed, worked on sabbath).

I think what is more interesting is the institutional response to people cheating. Universities back home are notoriously unforgiving with cheating (they recognize that it's a problem and implement harsh punishments). Generally, as a society, we don't sympathize with the cheaters.
OP's article was interesting to me because it showed a very different response: rather than society discouraging the cheaters, people are actually opening up public businesses to facilitate cheating. This implicitly exonerates and encourages dishonesty and cheating.

To me that illustrates a difference in how cheating is perceived between the two cultures.


Is it morally wrong? I would argue yes, as it hurts society as a whole. Other people apparently disagree, which is cool --  as long as they give reasons that make more sense than "It's not wrong because everybody here has cheated at some point in their lives."

Hypocrisy is annoying, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate the hypocrite's opinions/judgement.

Yeah, I see it wasn't what the discussion was about and I hope that wasn't how my argumentation came across to others. I was just curious to see if anyone would say they haven't.

However, I don't see much of a difference as you, I think. A quick Google search will bring up quite a number of websites that are willing to write "professional" papers for students. It doesn't get much more public than that.

What I think would've made this article more well rounded (and probably better for basing an opinion off of) is a statement from the art teacher (who probably was not wise to his cheating), or the student himself, or someone from the homework company (or anyone else directly involved). They talked to ONE STUDENT's mother who admits to cheating and then two officials (one requesting to remain anonymous no less) who I'm assuming probably don't actually have any idea what kind of cheating (nor to what scale it is) is going on in the classroom.
But I'm not a marine biologist....


  • sazza_05
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    • March 02, 2012, 05:34:08 am
    • Canada
Re: Homework agencies’ a boon for busy students
« Reply #72 on: November 21, 2013, 02:34:01 pm »
Isn't cheating and helping your child with everything wrong? Doesn't it teach the child to be dependent on his/er mom? Does that help set them up for failure later in life? Are they going to phone in their project at their future job to their parents? And what will they teach their children? Go to Grandma?

You are so right. I am shocked to see people who say they are "Teachers" stating it is okay to cheat. If I had a student cheat, I would take their test or paper. I'd have a talk with them, maybe I'd give them a zero, or maybe I'd give them another chance, depending on the situation. Cheating may get you somewhere in the short term, but what about the long term?


  • Kyndo
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Re: Homework agencies’ a boon for busy students
« Reply #73 on: November 21, 2013, 02:40:52 pm »
What I think would've made this article more well rounded (and probably better for basing an opinion off of) is a statement from the art teacher (who probably was not wise to his cheating), or the student himself, or someone from the homework company (or anyone else directly involved).
I agree. That would be pretty cool. I think I would be most curious to read the reactions of the other students in the class (as they're the ones who will be most strongly affected by these kind of "agencies").

However, I don't see much of a difference as you, I think. A quick Google search will bring up quite a number of websites that are willing to write "professional" papers for students. It doesn't get much more public than that.
Yeah, I might be exaggerating the difference a touch in order to make my opinion a little clearer -- I don't think there's a huge difference.
However, I was pretty unimpressed when this article on professorial plagiarism came out a few months back. (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2013/04/116_134113.html)
I would like to believe that something similar would not be tolerated or even possible back home.


Re: Homework agencies’ a boon for busy students
« Reply #74 on: November 21, 2013, 03:19:19 pm »
Isn't cheating and helping your child with everything wrong? Doesn't it teach the child to be dependent on his/er mom? Does that help set them up for failure later in life? Are they going to phone in their project at their future job to their parents? And what will they teach their children? Go to Grandma?

You are so right. I am shocked to see people who say they are "Teachers" stating it is okay to cheat. If I had a student cheat, I would take their test or paper. I'd have a talk with them, maybe I'd give them a zero, or maybe I'd give them another chance, depending on the situation. Cheating may get you somewhere in the short term, but what about the long term?

Well, it seems like some people are reading things like "it happens" (not necessarily that I think you're targeting me) as "everyone should cheat" and assuming that since we're teachers that we're teaching that to our students. But, I think your point is pretty much the same. Nothing will come from it in the end (well, most of the time, we can hope).

What I think would've made this article more well rounded (and probably better for basing an opinion off of) is a statement from the art teacher (who probably was not wise to his cheating), or the student himself, or someone from the homework company (or anyone else directly involved).
I agree. That would be pretty cool. I think I would be most curious to read the reactions of the other students in the class (as they're the ones who will be most strongly affected by these kind of "agencies").

However, I don't see much of a difference as you, I think. A quick Google search will bring up quite a number of websites that are willing to write "professional" papers for students. It doesn't get much more public than that.
Yeah, I might be exaggerating the difference a touch in order to make my opinion a little clearer -- I don't think there's a huge difference.
However, I was pretty unimpressed when this article on professorial plagiarism came out a few months back. (http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2013/04/116_134113.html)
I would like to believe that something similar would not be tolerated or even possible back home.

I like your idea (of asking the other students, too). It would be interesting to see how they feel or if the majority of them even know that these cheating options are available to them. Though, I suppose that could effectively lead more of them to do so :P

The other article you posted is pretty crazy, too. I would like to see what the general consensus in the West is, too. In Korea, it sounds to me like a lot of superiority that people are afraid to blow the whistle on. The title seems like a bit much, though. It's funny to me that the percentage of professors ignoring plagiarism is around the same percent of professors that think it's a big problem. :P
But I'm not a marine biologist....


  • confusedsafferinkorea
  • Waygook Lord

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    • Zhubei, Hsinchu County, Taiwan (not part of China)
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Re: Homework agencies’ a boon for busy students
« Reply #75 on: November 21, 2013, 06:18:57 pm »
Quote
What I think would've made this article more well rounded (and probably better for basing an opinion off of) is a statement from the art teacher (who probably was not wise to his cheating), or the student himself, or someone from the homework company (or anyone else directly involved). They talked to ONE STUDENT's mother who admits to cheating and then two officials (one requesting to remain anonymous no less) who I'm assuming probably don't actually have any idea what kind of cheating (nor to what scale it is) is going on in the classroom.

Yes, but if they wrote an article like that, how would we be able to make a rash, sweeping generalization of a country with 50+ million people?


That would be no fun at all.


Sarcasm doesn't suit you.
There is no known medical cure for stupidity!


  • Archeon
  • Expert Waygook

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    • August 21, 2012, 02:36:28 pm
    • Ulsan
Re: Homework agencies’ a boon for busy students
« Reply #76 on: November 22, 2013, 10:12:34 am »
You are so right. I am shocked to see people who say they are "Teachers" stating it is okay to cheat. If I had a student cheat, I would take their test or paper. I'd have a talk with them, maybe I'd give them a zero, or maybe I'd give them another chance, depending on the situation. Cheating may get you somewhere in the short term, but what about the long term?

You see, I am shocked to see so many people who call themselves teachers who like to misrepresent others in an argument.

For instance, you'd talk to your student?  In English?  He'd understand you?  Do you think he cares what some waygookin who doesn't understand HIM and what he has to go through says?

Like you, I give any student I find cheating a 0, or I tear up their test paper in front of them and the CoT and give him a new one while not giving him any extra time to finish.

Just because I come down hard on the cheaters doesn't mean I am incapable of understanding the wider scope of the problem and the probable reasons for it.

What people are trying to do is offer perspective, not really to condone the essence of cheating.

On the cheaters I catch, yes they get 0's or fail.  However, the cheaters I don't catch get high marks.  So, there you go.  I know I don't catch all the cheating, therefore, those who cheat and don't get caught are beating the system.

What most people are appalled at is the system, not only in Korea, but also around the world, needs a gigantic overhaul.

People want to tar and feather this mother for doing what most people do.  They would just never admit to it in court under penalty of punishment.

To go to the extreme.  Anyone who has cheated should be automatically stripped of their teaching license, all diplomas regarding graduation, and sentenced to 50 years manual labor in a north korean mining camp.

Any takers?  Anyone want to raise their hand and voluntarily take their punishment?

It is the righteous thing to do.

The problem is people coming off as self-righteous moral guides for the rest of humanity.  You can discuss a problem and try to find a solution to it rather than vilify the symptoms (in this case a cheating mom/son) of the problem and pretend you are better than other people.

Which is what some people here are trying to do.

A lot of parents are just being honest.  My son cheats?  As long as he gets into university, not a big deal.  Another poster explained that a person who cheats would likely have 0 chance of getting into university anyway, so increasing that chance by only  a few percentage points is worth it to them.

The system is bad because we test people on what they can memorize rather than what they are capable of.
I will tolerate your existence only so far as it doesn't infringe on science.


  • gtrain83
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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    • August 27, 2011, 10:26:20 am
Re: Homework agencies’ a boon for busy students
« Reply #77 on: November 22, 2013, 10:27:20 am »
The system is bad because we test people on what they can memorize rather than what they are capable of.

So true. But how can it be better?


“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”


  • Kyndo
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Re: Homework agencies’ a boon for busy students
« Reply #78 on: November 22, 2013, 10:57:29 am »
It is the righteous thing to do.

The problem is people coming off as self-righteous moral guides for the rest of humanity.
I get what your saying. To take one of your minor points and go all tangential on it:

...But humanity does need moral guidance if societies are to function at a reasonably efficiently level. Somewhere along the line, somebody does need recognize problems and step in and say "This is morally wrong: what can be done to prevent this from happening?"

Obviously, most people who do this directly end up sounding like self-righteous hypocrites. I wonder if this is how a lot of historical religious/philosophical figures end up being created: people ascribing their moral judgement to some dead guy with a respectable reputation so that people don't have to deal with the annoyance of being accused of massive douchebaggery.


Also:
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
Apparently Einstein never Googled "Mudskippers"  :smiley:
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 11:04:03 am by kyndo »


  • Archeon
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    • Ulsan
Re: Homework agencies’ a boon for busy students
« Reply #79 on: November 22, 2013, 12:05:07 pm »
I wonder if this is how a lot of historical religious/philosophical figures end up being created: people ascribing their moral judgement to some dead guy with a respectable reputation so that people don't have to deal with the annoyance of being accused of massive douchebaggery.


Like they do with Reagan?

Or Jesus?

I will tolerate your existence only so far as it doesn't infringe on science.