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Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #2940 on: November 19, 2019, 03:02:11 pm »
which foreign power did obama ask for help? also i don't remember obama freezing aid to any country under the assumption that it would be released when that country helped him. i genuinely don't remember


Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #2941 on: November 19, 2019, 03:08:02 pm »
which foreign power did obama ask for help? also i don't remember obama freezing aid to any country under the assumption that it would be released when that country helped him. i genuinely don't remember

Because he didn't.  It's just more 'look over there' and 'Obama' nonsense.  Also, what demartian has trouble understanding is that you don't get to highlight something you think is illegal by doing something blatantly illegal as well.  That's not how it works. 


Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #2942 on: November 19, 2019, 04:03:17 pm »
which foreign power did obama ask for help? also i don't remember obama freezing aid to any country under the assumption that it would be released when that country helped him. i genuinely don't remember
The US intel agencies worked with both Australian and British intelligence (and possibly Ukrainian and Russian agents, though in those cases where their actual allegiances lie and how official they are is up for debate).

Since the actions of those agencies are the responsibility of the respective heads of state, and they were acting within their official capacity, then that would certainly constitute requested and received foreign aid, even if there was a step remove of official asking. That was a slicker way of doing things, but the result is still the same.

Dems push Ukraine to investigate a political opponent
https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/04/politics/robert-mueller-ukraine/index.html

Schiff sought dirt on Trump
Quote
On April 10, 2017, an assistant to Adam Schiff, the ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, which is investigating Donald Trump’s campaign for possible collusion with the Kremlin, patched in a long-planned call from Andriy Parubiy, the speaker of the Rada, the Ukrainian parliament. Parubiy said he had some potentially explosive information about Trump’s visit to Moscow for the Miss Universe pageant in 2013.

“I would just caution that our Russian friends may be listening to the conversation, so I wouldn’t share anything over the phone that you don’t want them to hear,” Schiff warned.

But Parubiy persisted. “In November 2013, Mr. Trump visited Moscow, he visited competition Miss Universe, and there he met with Russian journalist and celebrity Ksenia Sobchak,” he said in his heavily accented, awkward English. He explained that in addition to having ties to Putin, Sobchak is “also known as a person who provides girls for escort for oligarchs. And she met with Trump and she brought him one Russian girl, celebrity Olga Buzova.” Schiff soberly asked for clarification, and Parubiy answered directly: Sobchak, he said, is a “special agent of Russian secret service.”

Buzova “got compromising materials on Trump after their short relations,” Parubiy said. “There were pictures of naked Trump.”

Schiff betrayed no emotion. “And so Putin was made aware of the availability of the compromising material?” he asked.

“Yes, of course,” Parubiy said. Putin wanted it communicated to Trump that “all those compromising materials will never be released if Trump will cancel all Russian sanctions.” The biggest bombshell: He had obtained a recording of Buzova and Sobchak talking about the kompromat while the two were visiting Ukraine. He told Schiff, “We are ready to provide [those materials] to FBI.”

Parubiy had more to say. He told Schiff about meetings that Trump’s former national-security adviser, Michael Flynn, had had with a Russian pop singer who served as an intermediary for the Kremlin. They’d met at a café in Brighton Beach, a Russian-immigrant enclave in Brooklyn, where, Parubiy said, “they used a special password before their meetings.” One would say, “Weather is good on Deribasovskaya.” The right response was “It rains again on Brighton Beach.”

“All righty. Good, this is very helpful. I appreciate it,” Schiff said. He told Parubiy that the U.S. would welcome the chance to review the evidence he had described. “We will try to work with the FBI to figure out, along with your staff, how we can obtain copies.”

Schiff was right to be concerned about “our Russian friends” listening in, though not in the way he imagined. It wasn’t Parubiy who’d called. It was Vladimir Kuznetsov and Alexey Stolyarov, two Russian pranksters known as Vovan and Lexus.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/01/putins-game/546548/

Why is it okay for the Dems to do these things but wrong for Trump?

Change the names around on this and the Dems would be saying "This is the responsibility of the President to investigate corruption" and "Let's not forget the record of the GOP", meanwhile the Republicans would be screaming "Abuse of Power" "Quid Pro Quo" and "He used taxpayer dollars to dig up dirt".

If you're going to impeach Trump, make it for something truly despicable, not just circular DC poop flinging. Impeach him for drone-striking a Yemeni family or something.


Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #2943 on: November 19, 2019, 04:14:02 pm »
Because he didn't.  It's just more 'look over there' and 'Obama' nonsense.  Also, what demartian has trouble understanding is that you don't get to highlight something you think is illegal by doing something blatantly illegal as well.  That's not how it works. 
But here's the question, if you are the President, and you suspect someone of corruption, who happens to be a political rival, do you have the authority to investigate them? Is that in the interest of the American people? I think the answer is "Probably".  Should you be able, as head of state and chief law enforcement officer, be able to leverage foreign powers into releasing relevant information? "Probably".

There's also Trump's state of mind to consider- The President believes that he was the target of a vicious smear campaign, orchestrated at the highest levels of our government, including the FBI and CIA. And the fact is, he sort of was. Now those on the left think it's all true and Trump is a foreign agent, but plenty on the right, independents, and even some leftists ranging from Noam Chomsky to Glenn Greenwald to Matt Taibbi to Aaron Mate all think the Russia stuff is a bunch of nonsense and is either an orchestrated smear campaign or worse, an attempted soft coup.

With that as Trump's frame of mind, and if you believe that to be the case, then that grants him EXTRAORDINARY latitude in his pursuit. We're talking about acts that amounted to a complete subversion of the US Constitution and an attempted overthrow of the duly elected head of state.


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Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #2944 on: November 19, 2019, 04:55:58 pm »
How about impeachment for campaign finance laws violations? I mean it’s not like people haven’t gone to prison already.


Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #2945 on: November 19, 2019, 05:06:02 pm »
But here's the question, if you are the President, and you suspect someone of corruption, who happens to be a political rival, do you have the authority to investigate them? Is that in the interest of the American people? I think the answer is "Probably".  Should you be able, as head of state and chief law enforcement officer, be able to leverage foreign powers into releasing relevant information? "Probably".

Not sure if you got the memo that completely debunked any corrupt wrongdoing by Biden.  So no.  Like I said above, just because you think somebody did something illegal, doesn't mean you can do something blatantly illegal to draw attention to it.  I can't say that any simpler.  There are also the correct official channels to do this.  Not getting someone like Guiliani to do it.


There's also Trump's state of mind to consider- The President believes that he was the target of a vicious smear campaign, orchestrated at the highest levels of our government, including the FBI and CIA. And the fact is, he sort of was. Now those on the left think it's all true and Trump is a foreign agent, but plenty on the right, independents, and even some leftists ranging from Noam Chomsky to Glenn Greenwald to Matt Taibbi to Aaron Mate all think the Russia stuff is a bunch of nonsense and is either an orchestrated smear campaign or worse, an attempted soft coup.

With that as Trump's frame of mind, and if you believe that to be the case, then that grants him EXTRAORDINARY latitude in his pursuit. We're talking about acts that amounted to a complete subversion of the US Constitution and an attempted overthrow of the duly elected head of state.

Spare me the 'trump is the victim here' card.  Seriously.  What he 'believes' does not make it right.  When Michelle Obama said that 'being president doesn't change who you are, it reveals who you are'.  That is what we are seeing here.  trump has always bullied, lied, cheated his whole life, now he's just doing the same thing in office.  So don't even think about playing the 'victim' card.  Whatever shit he gets thrown at him is fully deserved. 


Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #2946 on: November 19, 2019, 08:35:01 pm »
Reading all the post hoc justifications for Trump's actions is seriously pathetic.


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Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #2947 on: November 19, 2019, 08:40:07 pm »
Reading all the post hoc justifications for Trump's actions is seriously pathetic.

Trump could bang every Republican congressman's wife and they'd be fine with it.


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Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #2948 on: November 20, 2019, 05:10:43 am »
Because he didn't.  It's just more 'look over there' and 'Obama' nonsense.  Also, what demartian has trouble understanding is that you don't get to highlight something you think is illegal by doing something blatantly illegal as well.  That's not how it works. 
But here's the question, if you are the President, and you suspect someone of corruption, who happens to be a political rival, do you have the authority to investigate them? Is that in the interest of the American people? I think the answer is "Probably".  Should you be able, as head of state and chief law enforcement officer, be able to leverage foreign powers into releasing relevant information? "Probably".

There's also Trump's state of mind to consider- The President believes that he was the target of a vicious smear campaign, orchestrated at the highest levels of our government, including the FBI and CIA. And the fact is, he sort of was. Now those on the left think it's all true and Trump is a foreign agent, but plenty on the right, independents, and even some leftists ranging from Noam Chomsky to Glenn Greenwald to Matt Taibbi to Aaron Mate all think the Russia stuff is a bunch of nonsense and is either an orchestrated smear campaign or worse, an attempted soft coup.

With that as Trump's frame of mind, and if you believe that to be the case, then that grants him EXTRAORDINARY latitude in his pursuit. We're talking about acts that amounted to a complete subversion of the US Constitution and an attempted overthrow of the duly elected head of state.
LOL. "The fact is..." What an imagination or lack of one.

Paranoia as an excuse.

If anything, the new evidence that has come out regarding the Ukraine lends credence to the charge that dishonest don is a russki operative. 

No one doubts that russia interfered in the election. The repugs denying it are just hoping it works again.  Chomsky dismissed the russkis because he has an axe to grind with the Israelis. Being a self-hating contrarian is Taibbi's schtick. And the only one talking about a coup is trump and his loyalists, such as yourself.

What about Wikileaks? How did that all come about? And as for the FBI, who leaked info about Clinton's emails to Guiliani? How was he able to predict that?


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Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #2949 on: November 20, 2019, 08:24:57 am »
Quote
But here's the question, if you are the President, and you suspect someone of corruption, who happens to be a political rival, do you have the authority to investigate them? Is that in the interest of the American people? I think the answer is "Probably".  Should you be able, as head of state and chief law enforcement officer, be able to leverage foreign powers into releasing relevant information? "Probably".

Even giving the benefit of the doubt to an established "liar" and "conman" (your words), one whose incarcerated campaign manager worked as a lobbyist for corrupt Ukrainian interests, there is a protocol for asking foreign powers to release relevant information. Why don't you read that US-Ukraine treaty that NorthStar posted instead of relying on hypotheticals, as if this is all speculative or academic. It's not. There are specific procedures for requesting foreign assistance in a criminal investigation. Trump didn't do that - he sent a bunch of lackeys to open a secret backchannel, fired the ambassador and withheld aid in exchange for a public announcement on an American news network that would be based entirely on innuendo around his 2020 campaign rival, rather than any solid material evidence.

Again, all of the testimony so far, as well as some public statements from the likes of Giuliani and Mulvaney, support this. That's why I keep asking if you've been paying attention to it. Your argument might actually evolve if you took a look at some primary sources. Instead, you seem to be fishing around various corners of the internet in order to stitch some kind of patchwork of hypotheticals and what ifs, when there is a clear compendium of evidence that you sidestep any time someone brings it up.


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Re: When will Trump be impeached? -2019 Better late than never- Congratulations!
« Reply #2950 on: November 20, 2019, 11:58:20 am »
Hmmm...


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"The video playing on the billboard took Ohio State University to task for failing to stop staff physician Dr. Richard Strauss from molesting hundreds of male athletes and other students at a time when Rep. Jim Jordan (R) was an assistant wrestling coach at the school.

“Ohio State officials knew about Richard Strauss for nearly two decades,” the message flashed on the screen. “20 years later, sexual abuse still is unreported. This isn’t just a Strauss problem, this is a problem at The Ohio State University. Congress, it’s time to investigate.”

Heck, if you've already turned a blind eye to sexual abuse, what's a little quid pro quo?


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Gordon finally decided to tell the truth. Seeing trumpites cohen, manafort and stone sitting behind bars sure refreshed his memory.

Rudy may be next. He's worried enough to be talking about having insurance.


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Gordon finally decided to tell the truth. Seeing trumpites cohen, manafort and stone sitting behind bars sure refreshed his memory.

Rudy may be next. He's worried enough to be talking about having insurance.

Devin Moones didn't have a clue on what was about to drop after his opening statement.


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So, Sondland just laid out Trump and Giuliani's scheme in forensic detail, quoting from texts and e-mails and mentioning all the different parties who participated in the discussions, and making explicitly clear that there was a quid pro quo arrangement. Also interesting is the implication that Trump was more interested in the optics of the investigation announcement than the outcome: “He didn’t actually have to do them, as I understood it.”


So DeMartino, what'll it be? Seems like you're down to three options here: 1) Sondland is a Never Trumper who is trying to hurt the President; 2) Obama may have done something somewhat similar once; 3) Pseudo-legalistic hypothetical which distracts from the material facts of this particular case.

Seems doubtful that even Trump himself will be able to help you:

« Last Edit: Yesterday at 07:37:52 am by fka »