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Poorly educated teachers teaching high-level students
« on: April 08, 2012, 12:43:56 am »
In your opinion, what does it the following statement 'poorly educated teachers teaching high-level students' really mean?

My negative opinion is below, but what is yours?

Over the course of my employment in Korea, I have listened to my fellow S. Korean teachers imply that the free trade agreements of the US were the reason for the recent financial crisis. During those discussions my lack of knowledge and interest about the FTA between the US and SK has been noted and has been an object of later derision- despite the fact that the US has 17 FTAs, and there are so much more interesting and exciting things happening in World and US and World economics today. (although, living in Korea, I should probably take more of an interest in it.)

Judging the students by the students and not by their teachers, I've also been told by students that people in Africa don't wear clothes.

There are numerous other examples of my being polite about the teachers' English skills and not mentioning mistakes if I understand their meaning, while they on the other hand are free to insult my English in conversations with other Korean English teachers if they think I made a mistake, which is usually a misunderstanding of the proper use of a word on their part.


  • cruisemonkey
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Re: Poorly educated teachers teaching high-level students
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2012, 04:14:16 am »
It's simply a Korean summation of the state of ESL in the Land of the Morning Screaming Vegetable Truck.
The Ks once gave me five minutes notice. I didn't know what to do with the extra time.


Re: Poorly educated teachers teaching high-level students
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2012, 07:01:27 am »
I said this would happen in the changes to Epik thread.  Setting the bar for a GPA, then publicly shaming the teachers for poor grades as an excuse to cancel the program in the future.

I find this ironic in a country where a good student gets 98-100 and an average student gets a low 90 or high 80's.

The wonders of completely ignoring grade inflation while pointing fingers at others who actually come here with proper grades.

Welcome to Korean culture.  The land of where the Koreans' transcript is not trusted (they know full well that those who don't study at SKY are quite sub-par), and forced to do a gazzillion tests just ot make sure you can do what their inflated transcripts say while  blindfolded while spinning in the air at the same time speaking perfect Konglish!

There is a very good reason why over 50% of Korean graduate with 'high' grades drop out of university in the first year in the States.  And it's not because they feel Amercian universities are too hard.  They get their grades quite literally by begging for them with their teacher or the school gives it to them to avoid complaints. 

Passing the buck and getting what you want until you finally get into the real world.  That's when Korea rightfully takes its place at the childrens table during real discussions and meetings.

 ::)

MC
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 07:06:27 am by Mountain Crocodile »


Re: Poorly educated teachers teaching high-level students
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2012, 09:26:01 am »
I said this would happen in the changes to Epik thread.  Setting the bar for a GPA, then publicly shaming the teachers for poor grades as an excuse to cancel the program in the future.

I find this ironic in a country where a good student gets 98-100 and an average student gets a low 90 or high 80's.

The wonders of completely ignoring grade inflation while pointing fingers at others who actually come here with proper grades.

Welcome to Korean culture.  The land of where the Koreans' transcript is not trusted (they know full well that those who don't study at SKY are quite sub-par), and forced to do a gazzillion tests just ot make sure you can do what their inflated transcripts say while  blindfolded while spinning in the air at the same time speaking perfect Konglish!

There is a very good reason why over 50% of Korean graduate with 'high' grades drop out of university in the first year in the States.  And it's not because they feel Amercian universities are too hard.  They get their grades quite literally by begging for them with their teacher or the school gives it to them to avoid complaints. 

Passing the buck and getting what you want until you finally get into the real world.  That's when Korea rightfully takes its place at the childrens table during real discussions and meetings.

 ::)

MC

To be fair, studying at a regular university in your second language while being expected to adhere to the same standards as the native speakers is not easy. I would say only above average students (very far above average) would be able to pull that off in the first place. 50% doesn't sound like a terrible success rate, when you really look at the situation.

Not defending the Korean system, but just saying, as someone who used to teach second language speakers at an American university, that may not be the best supporting evidence.


  • Jozigirl
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Re: Poorly educated teachers teaching high-level students
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2012, 10:36:07 am »
I said this would happen in the changes to Epik thread.  Setting the bar for a GPA, then publicly shaming the teachers for poor grades as an excuse to cancel the program in the future.

I find this ironic in a country where a good student gets 98-100 and an average student gets a low 90 or high 80's.

The wonders of completely ignoring grade inflation while pointing fingers at others who actually come here with proper grades.

Welcome to Korean culture.  The land of where the Koreans' transcript is not trusted (they know full well that those who don't study at SKY are quite sub-par), and forced to do a gazzillion tests just ot make sure you can do what their inflated transcripts say while  blindfolded while spinning in the air at the same time speaking perfect Konglish!

There is a very good reason why over 50% of Korean graduate with 'high' grades drop out of university in the first year in the States.  And it's not because they feel Amercian universities are too hard.  They get their grades quite literally by begging for them with their teacher or the school gives it to them to avoid complaints. 

Passing the buck and getting what you want until you finally get into the real world.  That's when Korea rightfully takes its place at the childrens table during real discussions and meetings.

 ::)

MC

To be fair, studying at a regular university in your second language while being expected to adhere to the same standards as the native speakers is not easy. I would say only above average students (very far above average) would be able to pull that off in the first place. 50% doesn't sound like a terrible success rate, when you really look at the situation.

Not defending the Korean system, but just saying, as someone who used to teach second language speakers at an American university, that may not be the best supporting evidence.

I second this.  There are many reasons non-native students at English universities drop out. 

Judging the students by the students and not by their teachers, I've also been told by students that people in Africa don't wear clothes.There are numerous other examples of my being polite about the teachers' English skills and not mentioning mistakes if I understand their meaning, while they on the other hand are free to insult my English in conversations with other Korean English teachers if they think I made a mistake, which is usually a misunderstanding of the proper use of a word on their part.

Um...when I worked at a summer camp (a very expensive one) in the US, I had parents ask me if I had had to buy clothes in order to some to the US because I'm from Africa.  The parents who asked me this live in Manhattan and hold professional jobs  ???  They also asked complimented me on my good English (my home language).  I also had many questions about wild animals roaming freely.  To be fair, this was also asked by several Europeans.  In England and France, I was asked how long the boat ride was because there are no airplanes in Africa.  I've never been asked such stupid questions by Koreans although, again to be fair, many are surprised that I'm not black simply because I'm from Africa.  There was a great pic posted in the "KONY" thread: Click on Uganda.  Ignorance doesn't discriminate in race. 

I wouldn't say that they're poorly educated but rather ignorant of certain things - just as we all are...


  • kyndo
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Re: Poorly educated teachers teaching high-level students
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2012, 07:52:59 pm »

There is a very good reason why over 50% of Korean graduate with 'high' grades drop out of university in the first year in the States.  And it's not because they feel Amercian universities are too hard.  They get their grades quite literally by begging for them with their teacher or the school gives it to them to avoid complaints. 

Passing the buck and getting what you want until you finally get into the real world.  That's when Korea rightfully takes its place at the childrens table during real discussions and meetings.

 ::)

MC

I've been talking with some of my coworkers on grade inflation, and on how well exchange students do overseas as compared to here locally, and would be very interested to know if that is an actual figure, and where I could find a supporting link if it is.

Also, insofar as I know, SK is running at a very strong trade surplus (36.4 billion dollars per annum) while most English speaking countries are running a deficit (the States is losing about 600 billion a year, for example). Seems respectably adultish to me. You sure that you're sitting at the right table, mate?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_current_account_balance


Re: Poorly educated teachers teaching high-level students
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2012, 08:38:05 pm »

There is a very good reason why over 50% of Korean graduate with 'high' grades drop out of university in the first year in the States.  And it's not because they feel Amercian universities are too hard.  They get their grades quite literally by begging for them with their teacher or the school gives it to them to avoid complaints. 

Passing the buck and getting what you want until you finally get into the real world.  That's when Korea rightfully takes its place at the childrens table during real discussions and meetings.

 ::)

MC

I've been talking with some of my coworkers on grade inflation, and on how well exchange students do overseas as compared to here locally, and would be very interested to know if that is an actual figure, and where I could find a supporting link if it is.

Also, insofar as I know, SK is running at a very strong trade surplus (36.4 billion dollars per annum) while most English speaking countries are running a deficit (the States is losing about 600 billion a year, for example). Seems respectably adultish to me. You sure that you're sitting at the right table, mate?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_current_account_balance

It's pretty easy to have a trade surplus when you have a conscript army and have the US defending you while you sing '@#$#@$ USA'.

When Korea learns to stand on its own w/o depending on others for protection and learns the true cost of freedom.   I would consider that little statistic valid.  Until then, it's a very irrelevent and skewed number.

So yes.  Korea is very much at the kids table.

MC


  • jurassic82
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Re: Poorly educated teachers teaching high-level students
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2012, 08:33:08 am »
OP your post is way too cynical. From an American perspective I find naive and ignorant people everywhere. You negative comments about Koreans beliefs about the FTA and other world matters isn't really fair. When I go back home I meet educated people (University graduate in professional fields) that make silly comments. For example I can't even count how many times someone has asked me what Korea I am living in North or South. Also, when ever I go back home I am constantly hearing people talking about how we need to buy American but then have no problem going to Walmart or COSTCO and buying cheap foriegn made products.  Ask an American what the capital of Canada is I am sure more than 50% will say Toronto. I could go on and on but the point I am trying to make is that it isn't fair to generalize.  I meet Koreans from both ends of the spectrum. Nothing you can do with the naive ones. No point in getting angry or changing their minds. Ignore them and get on with your job. Believe me it is pretty easy to do. :P


Re: Poorly educated teachers teaching high-level students
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2012, 09:06:08 am »
http://asiancorrespondent.com/22912/why-are-korean-students-dropping-out-of-top-american-universities/
MC is sort of right on the high dropout rate.
Chinese have a rate of 15% dropping out, Koreans are 45%.....that would raise questions about the second language argument being such a significant factor. There is a Korean factor at play here.
Yes it is harder to study abroad, but marks at Korean universities are unusually high and easy to get.
I know people who have gotten 2.0 for their final year at Korean universities because they got a job and essentially dropped out. Not going to class, not doing any assignments or exams and getting a 2.0 average. It's not a good mark, but it's a good deal compared to finishing 4th year in most other universities and risking getting an even lower mark.

You can drop all of the statistics you want, but unless it's coming from someone who's done anything even remotely comparable to attending a high level university in their second language and completing work that can compete with native speakers, I'm not going to put much weight behind their words. Because I saw the effort and struggle that it took, first hand, hundreds of times over. Implying that the drop out rate is due to laziness only shows a naive understanding of what that entire situation involves, including financial circumstances, cultural adaptation and discrimination from professors toward non-native speaking students. It would be better to find another way to prove the point, because in my opinion, this argument just looks a bit ignorant.


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Re: Poorly educated teachers teaching high-level students
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2012, 09:40:34 am »
After more than 20 years away from the classroom I went back and got a degree from a university in Canada. I found it challenging; I never missed a class and I spent about 30 hours a week studying at home and doing assignments.

There were 5 Chinese girls in our class and all of them studied and worked their tails off. They all graduated with solid marks and they did it on pure merit. My school gave no quarter, you got what you deserved.   
"The urge to destroy is also a creative urge."
Bakunin


Re: Poorly educated teachers teaching high-level students
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2012, 10:22:47 am »
After more than 20 years away from the classroom I went back and got a degree from a university in Canada. I found it challenging; I never missed a class and I spent about 30 hours a week studying at home and doing assignments.

There were 5 Chinese girls in our class and all of them studied and worked their tails off. They all graduated with solid marks and they did it on pure merit. My school gave no quarter, you got what you deserved.

Hear hear!  That's an excellent example to set. 

I've seen international students come to my uni in Canada, work their butts off and graduate with pride.

Here I"ve seen students literally put their hands together and beg for a higher grade.  It still baffles me at times, but it's what's considered socially acceptable.  It's also a reason why companies have so many entry tests and other forms of testing for competency.  They simply do not trust the local educational establishments.

Here, a degree means you can write another test to really prove yourself.  Those who begged are usually in for a serious reality check.

MC


Re: Poorly educated teachers teaching high-level students
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2012, 12:32:19 pm »
You can drop all of the statistics you want, but unless it's coming from someone who's done anything even remotely comparable to attending a high level university in their second language and completing work that can compete with native speakers, I'm not going to put much weight behind their words. Because I saw the effort and struggle that it took, first hand, hundreds of times over. Implying that the drop out rate is due to laziness only shows a naive understanding of what that entire situation involves, including financial circumstances, cultural adaptation and discrimination from professors toward non-native speaking students. It would be better to find another way to prove the point, because in my opinion, this argument just looks a bit ignorant.

I don't know why I'm bothering to reply to this when obviously my point was missed.
These are statistics of drop out rates for IVY league (high level) schools.
These are statistics which basically say Chinese are THREE times less likely to drop out of Ivy league schools than Koreans. To state that another way Koreans are THREE times more likely to drop out of Ivy league schools than Chinese.
Other ethnicities were cited in the article but the reason I chose Chinese vs Korean is because I assumed they would have a similar experience attending university in America. Their languages and cultures are related and English isn't widely spoken in their countries. Chinese drop out rate is less than half of 'ordinary Americans', Korea is 10% higher than 'ordinary Americans'.

Why are the Chinese more successful than Koreans and even Americans if it language barrier is such an obstacle as you say?
Also where did I imply Koreans are lazy? I just implied university is more about admissions here and less about graduations and it's easy to score high marks.
I said the reason they drop out is cultural, not a language barrier. I provided an example of another group of students who succeed despite the language barrier. Admission to these school requires tests and essays to demonstrate language competence.

If you don't see the point in bothering to respond to me, by the way, in the future please don't put yourself out!

But since I'm assuming you're post was aimed in response to my post, then I guess the point that was really missed was mine. By you. Because I wasn't talking about Chinese students, or claiming it was impossible for Korean students to succeed at foreign universities. MC made a connection between drop out rates of Korean students from top American universities and the system of just begging for grades and not doing any work at Korean universities. It's a false connection. Because, regardless of how many Chinese students may step up to the plate and finish their degrees, it doesn't change the fact that not being able to graduate from a top university in your second language does not necessarily have anything to do with being lazy or refusing to work. Anyone who had been to a top university, let alone in a non-native language, would probably know that.

So thank you for your information about Chinese students. Anyway. I guess. Sorry I missed your point about them.


  • kyndo
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Re: Poorly educated teachers teaching high-level students
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2012, 06:17:26 pm »
Yeah, thanx for the link, that's exactly what I was looking for -- though I'm a little disappointed that after they fire off all the applicable stats, they barely touched on the reasons for them... I really would like to know why Korean and Chinese students, who come from similar school cultures and environments end up performing so very differently when they arrive at American universities (the difference between a 44% drop out rate and a 15% drop out rate is huuuuuge). I wonder if it has something to do with the perceived value of the diploma they are earning -- would an American degree be more valuable to a Chinese student than to a Korean student? As both nationalities have very strong study ethics, it seems to me that the different rates must come from differences in motivation. Any thoughts?


Re: Poorly educated teachers teaching high-level students
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2012, 07:47:33 pm »
Yeah, thanx for the link, that's exactly what I was looking for -- though I'm a little disappointed that after they fire off all the applicable stats, they barely touched on the reasons for them... I really would like to know why Korean and Chinese students, who come from similar school cultures and environments end up performing so very differently when they arrive at American universities (the difference between a 44% drop out rate and a 15% drop out rate is huuuuuge). I wonder if it has something to do with the perceived value of the diploma they are earning -- would an American degree be more valuable to a Chinese student than to a Korean student? As both nationalities have very strong study ethics, it seems to me that the different rates must come from differences in motivation. Any thoughts?

I'm really not well educated on the subject at large, but I can tell you that the Chinese students I had at the university where I worked were mostly from very rich, very high status families. It wasn't the easiest thing in the world for them to get to the US to study, for what seemed to be issues between our respective governments. The Korean students were mostly from middle class/upper middle class ordinary families, and a lot of them were working (sometimes illegal) part time jobs to get by, or staying with immigrated family members. The Chinese students tended to speak close to fluent English by the time they arrived, whereas the Korean students were learning more as they went. If you asked me to armchair philosophize on the subject, I would say the starting point was the cause of it. For the Chinese students, it seemed they came from families and situations where failure was not an option, and they were already predisposed toward success, whereas the Korean students were kind of more worn down by their situations. That's all I've got.


  • Martinri
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Re: Poorly educated teachers teaching high-level students
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2012, 08:44:46 pm »
Poorly educated, for me, meaning they got their degrees, but students are getting low grades with tests/exams.

In your opinion, what does it the following statement 'poorly educated teachers teaching high-level students' really mean?

My negative opinion is below, but what is yours?

Over the course of my employment in Korea, I have listened to my fellow S. Korean teachers imply that the free trade agreements of the US were the reason for the recent financial crisis. During those discussions my lack of knowledge and interest about the FTA between the US and SK has been noted and has been an object of later derision- despite the fact that the US has 17 FTAs, and there are so much more interesting and exciting things happening in World and US and World economics today. (although, living in Korea, I should probably take more of an interest in it.)

Judging the students by the students and not by their teachers, I've also been told by students that people in Africa don't wear clothes.

There are numerous other examples of my being polite about the teachers' English skills and not mentioning mistakes if I understand their meaning, while they on the other hand are free to insult my English in conversations with other Korean English teachers if they think I made a mistake, which is usually a misunderstanding of the proper use of a word on their part.


Re: Poorly educated teachers teaching high-level students
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2012, 09:58:17 pm »
While it is true that there are people in every country who are ignorant, racist, naive, etc., most countries' leaders and journalists don't publicly call foreign teachers stupid and uneducated. In addition, what an ignorant, racist, naive coworker thinks in the US carries a much lighter weight than what an ignorant, racist, or naive coworker thinks in Korea.


 


Also, insofar as I know, SK is running at a very strong trade surplus (36.4 billion dollars per annum) while most English speaking countries are running a deficit (the States is losing about 600 billion a year, for example). Seems respectably adultish to me. You sure that you're sitting at the right table, mate?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_current_account_balance

In response to this poster, the financial crisis and the Great Recesssion of the States was not caused by Free Trade Agreements. You may be able to argue that FTAs contributed to a normal recession, but the depth and the severity of this recession was caused by bad housing policy among other financial and monetary factors that economists can argue about, but it wasn't caused by the FTAs. Furthermore, in answering what were the contributing factors behind the great recession, it is irrelevant who has the greater trade surplus or even the better economy.  If you want to argue about whether or not FTAs are beneficial or not you must take into account all the benefits and negatives over the years caused by the various FTAs. These benefits and negaatives cannot fully be captured by a quoted wikipedia trade surplus figure. Google a little more extensively before you respond next time.


  • kyndo
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Re: Poorly educated teachers teaching high-level students
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2012, 02:50:22 pm »

Also, insofar as I know, SK is running at a very strong trade surplus (36.4 billion dollars per annum) while most English speaking countries are running a deficit (the States is losing about 600 billion a year, for example). Seems respectably adultish to me. You sure that you're sitting at the right table, mate?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_current_account_balance

In response to this poster, the financial crisis and the Great Recesssion of the States was not caused by Free Trade Agreements. You may be able to argue that FTAs contributed to a normal recession, but the depth and the severity of this recession was caused by bad housing policy among other financial and monetary factors that economists can argue about, but it wasn't caused by the FTAs. Furthermore, in answering what were the contributing factors behind the great recession, it is irrelevant who has the greater trade surplus or even the better economy.  If you want to argue about whether or not FTAs are beneficial or not you must take into account all the benefits and negatives over the years caused by the various FTAs. These benefits and negaatives cannot fully be captured by a quoted wikipedia trade surplus figure. Google a little more extensively before you respond next time.

I agree with you.
My above quote wasn't meant in any way as an observation on any free trade agreement. It was in response to MC's comment about South Korea not deserving to 'sit at the adult's table". I used economic figures to point out that Korea is doing very well in international trade as compared to most English speaking countries -- I used America as an example because they have a very large deficit, but I could just have easily used those figures belonging to the UK, Australia, Canada or any other, as they're all pretty darn atrocious.

Basically, I was using trade surplus quotes to show that Korea does in fact deserve to sit at the international 'adult table', nothing more or less.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 02:54:32 pm by kyndo »