Read 23964 times

Re: Ready to Cry
« Reply #120 on: January 20, 2012, 03:26:04 pm »
So if your hakwan boss literally tells you 'Oh he doesn't like Englsih, just ignore him' - what do yo do?   Satisfy your own misplaced ideals and lose them 250k a month or just do as asked?

Nobody is arguing that the administration or hagwon system in Korea isn't messed up. That's a completely different issue.

But you're going on like just because you're miserable, hate your job, and have given up on ever being a real teacher, that everyone else should feel exactly the same way. If you're getting negative reviews, then maybe you should consider the possibility that maybe, just maybe, you're to blame. Have you considered that?

You seem pretty confident that the trick to learning is to just mindlessly listen and repeat things… but have you ever considered that maybe there are other ways to teach that are just as if not more effective, while also not boring the students to tears?

As for the whole 'you're a newbie' thing: This is my second contract---last year I got 97% on my review. My co-teacher wanted to give me higher, but said that she couldn't for one reason or another-- I think it was because my VP told me to take an afternoon off when I was sick. I didn't do the dancing monkey routine AT ALL. I played games in class once every 4 weeks (as a review). Nobody suggested that I play more games, or be goofier. I was given absolute freedom to teach whatever I wanted to teach, and it worked extremely well. My co-teachers say I just keep getting better.

In fact, I've taught in Korea for 5 years now-- and each year I keep getting better reviews. My bosses give me more responsibilities. They let me negotiate my contract to get more vacation time. They tell me I'm great. There have been no 'surprise, we actually think you suck' comments. There have been complaints, but I've been able to deal with them maturely and responsibly-- because even though it might seem like a novel concept, sometimes you have to do your job and ADAPT. Since entering the public school system, I've left each and every workplace on very good terms. In many cases, I've kept in touch with my co-workers. They have had no problems signing letters of recommendation or giving references.

My point here isn't that I'm an amazing teacher-- I'm definitely not a bad teacher, but I still make mistakes. I think that the difference between me and you is that I also ADMIT that I make mistakes, and try to learn from them… I accept responsibility for doing my job. I've had jobs here that I hated-- and I quit them and found another.

Sometimes the problem IS the students, but that still doesn't mean that I'm not going to keep changing up my materials every week in the hopes that something will stick… and more often than not, if you do try new ideas, you will keep them going or keep them interested. It's not just be a clown or be a teacher… there's always a middle ground.

To be honest, if it weren't for the fact that in Korea the demand often compromises employer standards, it would be a total mystery just how you've lasted 7.5 years here with that attitude.

I believe your success is very much related to the fact that you work in a school that enables you to be a good teacher.  If your co-workers told you to strait up play games and stop teaching, would you just quit on the spot due to your ideals?


  • Spongeblob
  • Super Waygook

    • 428

    • March 03, 2011, 10:21:58 am
    • South Korea
Re: Ready to Cry
« Reply #121 on: January 20, 2012, 03:39:08 pm »
Student doesn't want to learn.  He calls mommy, mommy calls Hagwon boss and removes her kid who is being treated unfairly.

Dweagi's point is pretty clear, especially for those of us who have worked at Hagwons.  "Teaching" a kid the wrong way or trying to help him too much is embarassing for the child, and he and his parent wield all the power in 95% of hagwons here.
Nope not clear unless it is stated.  Personally I thought it involved space aliens resurrecting Hitler's Brain.

I've taught in hagwons too.  You are right about teaching kids the wrong way so how about teaching kids the right way?  95.5% actually.


  • Spongeblob
  • Super Waygook

    • 428

    • March 03, 2011, 10:21:58 am
    • South Korea
Re: Ready to Cry
« Reply #122 on: January 20, 2012, 03:47:42 pm »
So if your hakwan boss literally tells you 'Oh he doesn't like Englsih, just ignore him' - what do yo do?   Satisfy your own misplaced ideals and lose them 250k a month or just do as asked?

Nobody is arguing that the administration or hagwon system in Korea isn't messed up. That's a completely different issue.

But you're going on like just because you're miserable, hate your job, and have given up on ever being a real teacher, that everyone else should feel exactly the same way. If you're getting negative reviews, then maybe you should consider the possibility that maybe, just maybe, you're to blame. Have you considered that?

You seem pretty confident that the trick to learning is to just mindlessly listen and repeat things… but have you ever considered that maybe there are other ways to teach that are just as if not more effective, while also not boring the students to tears?

As for the whole 'you're a newbie' thing: This is my second contract---last year I got 97% on my review. My co-teacher wanted to give me higher, but said that she couldn't for one reason or another-- I think it was because my VP told me to take an afternoon off when I was sick. I didn't do the dancing monkey routine AT ALL. I played games in class once every 4 weeks (as a review). Nobody suggested that I play more games, or be goofier. I was given absolute freedom to teach whatever I wanted to teach, and it worked extremely well. My co-teachers say I just keep getting better.

In fact, I've taught in Korea for 5 years now-- and each year I keep getting better reviews. My bosses give me more responsibilities. They let me negotiate my contract to get more vacation time. They tell me I'm great. There have been no 'surprise, we actually think you suck' comments. There have been complaints, but I've been able to deal with them maturely and responsibly-- because even though it might seem like a novel concept, sometimes you have to do your job and ADAPT. Since entering the public school system, I've left each and every workplace on very good terms. In many cases, I've kept in touch with my co-workers. They have had no problems signing letters of recommendation or giving references.

My point here isn't that I'm an amazing teacher-- I'm definitely not a bad teacher, but I still make mistakes. I think that the difference between me and you is that I also ADMIT that I make mistakes, and try to learn from them… I accept responsibility for doing my job. I've had jobs here that I hated-- and I quit them and found another.

Sometimes the problem IS the students, but that still doesn't mean that I'm not going to keep changing up my materials every week in the hopes that something will stick… and more often than not, if you do try new ideas, you will keep them going or keep them interested. It's not just be a clown or be a teacher… there's always a middle ground.

To be honest, if it weren't for the fact that in Korea the demand often compromises employer standards, it would be a total mystery just how you've lasted 7.5 years here with that attitude.

I believe your success is very much related to the fact that you work in a school that enables you to be a good teacher.  If your co-workers told you to strait up play games and stop teaching, would you just quit on the spot due to your ideals?
While it is true success here often depends on your school realtions it doesn't define your attitude teaching students or does it?  Do your ideals tell you to selectively teach only students you like?


Re: Ready to Cry
« Reply #123 on: January 20, 2012, 03:48:42 pm »
Quote
When one has no answer and nothing to say, they resort to insults.  Take a minute and read your post again big guy, I'm sure you'll find something.


Again more stock phrases and simplistic generalisations.

Ch1can3 got there.

Sometimes people have the answer, ARE right AND have something to say AND still also resort to insults. 


Re: Ready to Cry
« Reply #124 on: January 20, 2012, 03:52:39 pm »
Sometimes people have the answer, ARE right AND have something to say AND still also resort to insults. 
Wrong.  Delusions are one thing, reality's another.

If people have the answer or are right, they wouldn't feel the need to cut down someone. 

Your teachers never corrected your answer and then proceeded to barrage you for being a very silly boy.  It takes a certain individual to derive pleasure in such a twisted fashion.  I think a poster mentioned how he was more or less happy he was to see his former bad boy student working in Homeplus...it's more or less on those lines. I'm not saying said poster is 'sick', but I don't think it's a very healthy standpoint.  No offense to him because our standards are different.   A very 'told you so' type of stance isn't necessarily one that's the most healthy in my opnion.  Yeah it feels good to say it, but that doesn't mean one should.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 03:58:56 pm by WorkingTitle3484 »
You get what you give :)


Re: Ready to Cry
« Reply #125 on: January 20, 2012, 03:54:32 pm »
I believe your success is very much related to the fact that you work in a school that enables you to be a good teacher.  If your co-workers told you to strait up play games and stop teaching, would you just quit on the spot due to your ideals?

Well, they wouldn't do that-- but I'd probably just play games until the end of my contract, and ask for a transfer. I've actually never heard this at any hagwon or public school that I've ever worked at.


Re: Ready to Cry
« Reply #126 on: January 20, 2012, 03:56:42 pm »
Sometimes people have the answer, ARE right AND have something to say AND still also resort to insults. 
Wrong.  Delusions are one thing, reality's another.

No, people really do all those things.  I do, for example.

You guys seem to imagine that reality confirms to stock proverbs lol.

'Someone who does this doesn't do that.'

My gran told me, so it must be true!

It's like the old 'people who are arrogant show off becaue they have no talent.'

Utter bs, lots of talented sportsmen and women and actors, directors etc are arrogant and would be the first to admit it.



Re: Ready to Cry
« Reply #127 on: January 20, 2012, 04:03:32 pm »
@Pigheadsoup, I'm not referring to people, I'm talking about teachers.  Have your teachers bent over backwards to prove why you were wrong or did they give you the answer and move on?  This isn't rhetorical, it's out of curiosity.  On second thought, let's not get into that yet.  The fact of the matter is your line of logic isn't exactly so clear and I and others would like to pick your brain a bit further.

What did you mean by:

  "Satisfy your own misplaced ideals and lose them 250k a month or just do as asked?"

...because it confused me as it did others.
You get what you give :)


Re: Ready to Cry
« Reply #128 on: January 20, 2012, 04:06:40 pm »
What did you mean by:

  "Satisfy your own misplaced ideals and lose them 250k a month or just do as asked?"

...because it confused me as it did others.

It means that when a student quits the school loses that much money.


  • Spongeblob
  • Super Waygook

    • 428

    • March 03, 2011, 10:21:58 am
    • South Korea
Re: Ready to Cry
« Reply #129 on: January 20, 2012, 04:07:18 pm »
Sometimes people have the answer, ARE right AND have something to say AND still also resort to insults. 
Wrong.  Delusions are one thing, reality's another.

No, people really do all those things.  I do, for example.

You guys seem to imagine that reality confirms to stock proverbs lol.

'Someone who does this doesn't do that.'

My gran told me, so it must be true!

It's like the old 'people who are arrogant show off becaue they have no talent.'

Utter bs, lots of talented sportsmen and women and actors, directors etc are arrogant and would be the first to admit it.
They are also talented as you admit.  :) Old people are also widely criticized for their foolish arrogance around the world it's probably why they lived so long the miserable aged skin bags them always sitting quitely playing cards or napping.  You just know at some point in time they are gonna jump up and spout some ancient knowledge like, "Don't stick scissors in your eyes."  Yeah, crazy old coots.  Ship them all off the Silver City and buy some new scissors so we can all get busy running around that's what I say.  In the meantime here is more arrogance from other talented people proving the point yet again.

Teach your children by what you are, not just by what you say" - Jane Revell & Susan Norman

"The authority of those who teach is often an obstacle to those who want to learn." - Cicero

"The best teacher is the one who suggests rather than dogmatizes, and inspires his listener with the wish to teach himself." - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

"The job of an educator is to teach students to see the vitality in themselves." - Joseph Campbell

"The mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be ignited." - Plutarch

"There are no difficult students - just students who don't want to do it your way" - Jane Revell & Susan Norman


  • Yu_Bumsuk
  • The Legend

    • 2341

    • March 03, 2011, 02:10:36 pm
    • Hicksville, ROK
Re: Ready to Cry
« Reply #130 on: January 20, 2012, 04:13:03 pm »
While it is true success here often depends on your school realtions it doesn't define your attitude teaching students or does it?

Actually for me it very much does. I love my school, put in a lot more hours (though not during winter and summer break) than most NETs, work many evenings, work Saturdays, and have even done stuff with students on a few Sundays. I've also spent hundreds (maybe more) of dollars on materials, prizes, postage for pen-friend letters, pizza and snack parties, and other things. So yeah, I'd say I have a pretty good attitude about my job. At my old job I tried, found it was pointless most of the time, and gave up and just tried with what classes and students were teachable. In the month before I quit I just let the others do whatever the hell they wanted, which wasn't doing anything related to English, needless to say. 



  • Spongeblob
  • Super Waygook

    • 428

    • March 03, 2011, 10:21:58 am
    • South Korea
Re: Ready to Cry
« Reply #131 on: January 20, 2012, 04:41:26 pm »
I think one thing we all agree on is that their are moments when teaching sucks and moments when it feels great.  You just have to push through the bad.  Every teacher feels that need to give up but doing it is wrong.  It's been 7 pages and no proof whatsoever from anyone how giving up on a student is right.  I've offered historical quotations, educational references, and a news report on a 10 year study to support the common sense idea that helping all students is what a teacher does.  Now if you want I will fill up another 7 pages of studies to support the position.  I don't think that is necessary.  As was already suggested some people don't want to learn and should be ignored (teachers not students).

(Spongeblob shakes his head and dejectedly starts to walk away.  Suddenly, Spongeblob is bathed in the unwashed light of hippy heaven.  "Spongeblob", a voice says.  "Your work is not done yet dude.  You must return to the website and educate the unidealed dude." Then a giant unwashed hand slaps Spongeblob with a flower shaped doobie and Spongeblob returns with renewed vinegar er vigour.)

 Dudes and Dudettes it is written that a teacher shall never give up and never surrender!  Always try to help your students.  :D


Re: Ready to Cry
« Reply #132 on: January 20, 2012, 04:51:39 pm »
While it is true success here often depends on your school realtions it doesn't define your attitude teaching students or does it?

Actually for me it very much does. I love my school, put in a lot more hours (though not during winter and summer break) than most NETs, work many evenings, work Saturdays, and have even done stuff with students on a few Sundays. I've also spent hundreds (maybe more) of dollars on materials, prizes, postage for pen-friend letters, pizza and snack parties, and other things. So yeah, I'd say I have a pretty good attitude about my job. At my old job I tried, found it was pointless most of the time, and gave up and just tried with what classes and students were teachable. In the month before I quit I just let the others do whatever the hell they wanted, which wasn't doing anything related to English, needless to say.

Pretty much same here, except for the saturdays and sundays.

A high level 13 yr old girl at our international school just quit and joined a GnB hakwan.

What a wase that a girl with her abilities made that switch because 'it's less stressful and more fun.'

Then again, like I said, if they're burning out all over a foriegn language, I say give em a break; core subjects should always come first.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 04:53:44 pm by DWAEDGIMORIGUKBAP »


Re: Ready to Cry
« Reply #133 on: January 20, 2012, 05:01:54 pm »
I think one thing we all agree on is that their are moments when teaching sucks and moments when it feels great.  You just have to push through the bad.  Every teacher feels that need to give up but doing it is wrong.  It's been 7 pages and no proof whatsoever from anyone how giving up on a student is right.  I've offered historical quotations, educational references, and a news report on a 10 year study to support the common sense idea that helping all students is what a teacher does.  Now if you want I will fill up another 7 pages of studies to support the position.  I don't think that is necessary.  As was already suggested some people don't want to learn and should be ignored (teachers not students).

(Spongeblob shakes his head and dejectedly starts to walk away.  Suddenly, Spongeblob is bathed in the unwashed light of hippy heaven.  "Spongeblob", a voice says.  "Your work is not done yet dude.  You must return to the website and educate the unidealed dude." Then a giant unwashed hand slaps Spongeblob with a flower shaped doobie and Spongeblob returns with renewed vinegar er vigour.)

 Dudes and Dudettes it is written that a teacher shall never give up and never surrender!  Always try to help your students.  :D

Offering 7 forum pages of studies to support your view from research would be worth reading.  Though I think you would have broken down, given up and proved my point in less than 48 hours.   Looking forward to the research.

MC


  • Frozencat99
  • The Legend

    • 2096

    • October 09, 2011, 04:31:36 pm
    more
Re: Ready to Cry
« Reply #134 on: January 20, 2012, 05:40:33 pm »
Quote
Just what would the reality of the average ESL classroom be, exactly? That some people came here with racist expectations of how Asians behave and got a rude awakening when they started teaching? Or that some NETs just aren't meant to be teachers but are here for loans, or to travel, or because of a down market back home? Teaching is much like babysitting... if you just sigh and give up or pop in a Power Rangers movie, you're not doing a good job.

More self created, self serving fantasy.

Awesome counter-argument, I hope you do a better job at teaching than you do at posting.
Beware the Homosexual Industrial Complex -- http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-june-17-2013/left-behind

You can leave your heterophobia behind.


  • Frozencat99
  • The Legend

    • 2096

    • October 09, 2011, 04:31:36 pm
    more
Re: Ready to Cry
« Reply #135 on: January 20, 2012, 06:02:33 pm »
Wow I didn't realize there was 3 more pages of post, my bad~

There's actually a Sailor Moon plotline that deals with this topic. Well, sort of... its about fighting evil from nesting on Earth instead of teaching, but there are students involved so its pretty much the same thing  ;). The way more experienced pessimists (that conicidentally also refer to themselves as realists) that consistently condemn the idealism of the newbies. The idealism that almost ends the world but, contrary to popuar belief, ressurects the saviour of the world.

Perhaps it is a bit of a stretch.

But, putting silliness aside and blushing slightly after posting about Sailor Moon from a bus terminal, its reprehensible to view your students as resource allocation plots. As Sponge said, the choice to leave certain people behind is driven by a number of factors that comes across based on your personal experiences with privilege. I had a mentally challenged girl in my class who was bullied and belittled because she didn't have to pass book check or write performance tests with everyone else. So I gave her a sheet, told her to try her best, and marked it myself. You know how she ended up doing?

She failed. However, she went from sitting with her head down and crying during most classes to participating with her group. She'd raise her hand, even though she didn't have the English to answer the question, and she'd get help from her group.  Is this and end-all, be-all example? No, not at all. Maybe I fluked out on the one positive response out of a hundred possible situations. I'm doing what most people are doing in this topic -- backing up their arguments poorly with limited anecdotal evidence.

Perhaps my sexuality has given me a natural affinity for rainbows and sunshine, but my positivity allows me to be happy regardless of how individual classes or assignments went. As belittling as the people on this forum are opt to be, especially when it comes to the peeing contest of "oh yeah well I've been herelonger/I have a PhD/my certificate is longer than yours", some people won't break.

I'll continue being the weird, dancing older brother for my students. If you're feeling down, or angry, instead of mudslinging your fellow NETS you should come on down to Frozencat's rainbow fantasy ESL classroom. Plenty of places to sit and you can drink from the cream soda fountain.
Beware the Homosexual Industrial Complex -- http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-june-17-2013/left-behind

You can leave your heterophobia behind.


  • daveb
  • Super Waygook

    • 284

    • March 07, 2011, 10:08:52 am
Re: Ready to Cry
« Reply #136 on: January 20, 2012, 07:00:42 pm »
After 8 pages of comments, excuse mine if it seems aloof.

In an idealistic sense, no student should be left behind. But in a practical, or even utilitarian sense, if a teacher spends too much time trying to motivate, include, inspire, wake up, or assist a minority of students, then it's counter-productive for the 30+ group of learners as a whole to overtly focus on individual students.

In terms of controlling/getting through to ''bad'' students, obvisously, there is no one magic answer. A lot depends on the context and the actual teacher/ group of students. Setting clear parameters of acceptability in your classroom - and enforcing them - is essential. Once the students have identified the middle ground where you are leading by example, one can only hope your situation improves. Good luck, EmMargaret!
« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 07:12:11 pm by daveb »


Re: Ready to Cry
« Reply #137 on: January 20, 2012, 07:04:52 pm »
I don't even take frozencat seriously as a poster. I think this is kind of her / it's version of 4chan lite or something.  Seriously, rainbows, soda fountains, cartoons for 10 yr olds....  I'm not making the connection that MC did which I kinda think is unfair and harsh, but still, persona of a 14 yr old, who can even be bothered to debate with her / it?


  • Davey
  • Moderator - LVL 3

    • 1820

    • February 01, 2010, 01:36:20 pm
Re: Ready to Cry
« Reply #138 on: January 20, 2012, 07:13:52 pm »
This isn't really helping the OP on the issue at hand. Looks like EmMargaret needs more interesting lessons and some classroom management techniques.

OP, you've come to the right site--look around/do a search.

For starters, check the following links:

Middle-school lesson plans:

http://waygook.org/index.php/board,23.0.html

Motivating students:

http://waygook.org/index.php?topic=21635.0

http://waygook.org/index.php?topic=2169.0

http://waygook.org/index.php?topic=11684.0

Classroom Management:

http://waygook.org/index.php?topic=2580.100
« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 07:35:46 pm by Davey »
------------------------------------------
Search this site using Google by typing, "site:waygook.org [search term]," especially during peak hours. Alternatively, use the site's search function.

EPIK: VISA, RENEWING, PENSION, ETC:

http://waygook.org/index.php/topic,2614.0.html