What is the deal with people going to fortune tellers?

Obviously, this isn't something that's completely unique to Korea, as there are people with less than average intelligence who are into tarot cards, astrology and horoscopes and all that nonsense in the West, too. However, whereas such people in the West are usually ridiculed by the majority of society, it seems like something far more normalized and pervasive throughout modern Korean society, to the extent that the freaking presidents have their own shaman who gives them advice on how to run the country.

What's the deal? Why don't people ridicule people for (1) wasting large sums of money going to see a charlatan who makes sweeping statements that can apply to pretty much anyone, and most importantly (2) for actually basing important life decisions on what some psychic said? There are people who literally cut contact with their families, sell their houses, leave their partner, or quit their job solely because some ajossi with a wispy beard at 사주 told them to.

I’d tell you but I’d need to confer with the spirits…and they don’t come cheap.

I personally make fun of them, if thats any consolation.  do your part.

However, whereas such people in the West are usually ridiculed by the majority of society

Uhm, I don't think the West is uniform on this if we want to talk about the influence and level of ridicule belief in the spiritual has. I mean, the U.S.A. and the Netherlands certainly would NOT be on par. Catholic and Orthodox nations tend to attach a stronger identity to the role of the church in their culture, even if they don't strictly follow it. Is Latin America western? Certainly religion and what some might say are superstitious practices are often widespread in some countries/communities. Not to mention things like dietary practices and such.

One could also argue that certain secular practices are in essence, performing the same function as religious practices for some. Certain things like dietary fads or purchases of certain brands/items as a way of signaling belief in a system, absent of truly rational basis for it, is rather similar to some of the behavior associated with religious belief. It has been suggested that religious practice is essentially hardwired into human DNA as a sort of evolutionary measure and that any group of humans will take on the behaviors and practices of religion, even without any knowledge of an existing religion. "Secular" belief systems showed this as they ended up developing cults of personality, extreme purity and ideology, intolerance of heathens, a belief in the need to evangelize their beliefs, even engage in "crusades" to spread this to the non-believers, the punishing of heretics, superstitious practices, etc.

If not to that extreme via political belief, a "milder" but often almost as fanatical element is seen in various fandoms. For example look at sports fans across "secular and enlightened" Europe. The level of fervor, superstition, sectarianism, would be considered "insane" by the majority of people in Asia. Fandom sure, but not to the point of fighting people and threatening them and engaging in dangerous conduct or attacking other fans for not being "supportive enough". Or something that is present in both East and West would be celebrity fandom and worship. People obsessed with musicians where the concerts take on an almost religious congregational element, often with words like 'pilgrimage' involved such things. People wearing various "charmed" articles to both sports and concerts and all that.

Basically, all of this is to say that the way religiosity manifests itself can vary but contains common elements. What seems "strange" in one place is "normal" in another and vice versa. People might be shocked that Americans are so religious, especially in politics. Americans would be shocked that people would bomb each other over being Catholic or Protestant and having a nominal head of state being a nominal head of a religious institution or that an ethnic Church would be so tied into national identity. And everyone there might find South Korean acceptance of shamans or fortune tellers bizarre, but they in turn might find it bizarre that even non-practicing members who were born into religious communities would still follow dietary taboos.

All that being said, I don't think Park Geun Hye having a shaman was an approved thing. In fact, it seemed to be a major point of contention amongst the people, which resulted in mass demonstrations until she was peacefully removed from power through legal and constitutional means.

It does seem there is a fairly live-and-let-live approach to religion. Probably why South Korea in its modern form has avoided any kind of major sectarian conflict unlike certain "advanced" Western nations despite the import and mass conversion of a significant % of its population to a completely foreign religion and such that those Presidents you speak of have come from the most diverse collection of religious backgrounds of ANY developed nation in the world. That's right- when it comes to religious tolerance in heads of state, South Korea is the most tolerant country on the planet and it isn't even close.

Catholic? Fine
Protestant? Fine
Buddhist? Fine
Shamanistic? Fine
Atheist? Fine

So given that this wide variety of heads of state and their religious beliefs hasn't resulted in civil war or crackdowns on other religions, for all its warts, I think South Korea is doing pretty well on the religion front and maybe "tolerant" and "enlightened" Europe and other such places could learn a thing or three from the people who occasionally like to go to the tarot card reader on a date for a laugh.

.........or drag you off to their "church" which is actually a religious cult and then will pester you for days ringing your bell all because you failed to read the fine print or ask the right questions when you were looking...

...okay maybe Korea ain't so great....

It worked for Robert Plant:

Left there in a hurry
Looking forward to my big surprise
The next day I discovered
That the fortune teller told me a lie

I hurried back down to that woman
As mad as I could be
I said I didn't see nobody
Why had she made a fool out of me?

Then something struck me
As if it came from up above
While looking at the fortune teller
I fell in love

Now I'm a happy feller
'Cause I'm married to the fortune teller
And I'm as happy as we can be
And now I get my fortune told for free

I've had a few conversations with my university students about tarot / saju and it seems like most of them think it's a fun, quick, cheap source of entertainment if they happen to be on a night out in Hongdae or whatever. I do not get the impression that anyone takes it very seriously. Obviously there are some people who do, but I think they're a fairly small minority.

Secondly, to offer a more concise version of what I suspect JVC's argument to be (sorry, I just skimmed over it)...

it seems like something far more normalized and pervasive throughout modern Korean society, to the extent that the freaking presidents have their own shaman who gives them advice on how to run the country.

A bit of cultural introspection is really required here. No American can be elected to the presidency without professing their religious faith. And you can read here about how the decision to invade Iraq (happy anniversary, btw!) was shaped by George W. Bush's conversations with "God": https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-6262644.html While some of us might consider this ridiculous and condemnable, there is still a huge proportion of Westerners who would consider this all very reasonable - you pray for guidance, God sends you a message, you act on that message. Qualitatively I don't see how this is any different from Korean politicians' dalliances with shamanism.

Finally, using tarot cards or taking an interest in them doesn't necessarily reflect a "belief" in their divine powers (or astrology). The history of tarot's evolution from playing card to divination tool is actually really interesting, as it corresponds to centuries of occult spirituality, secret societies and debates about heresy, starting in the Italian Renaissance. The cards themselves are loaded with archetypes and symbolism related to shared human experiences and relationships, basically function as a way of remixing elements from mythology to produce new narratives. You can use them to stimulate new ways of a looking a problem, the same as you might take inspiration from novels, movies or a religious parable. Or you can simply get lost in the art (Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot are particularly compelling - https://www.openculture.com/2017/11/the-thoth-tarot-deck-designed-by-famed-occultist-aleister-crowley.html). So in other words, there's potential for an entirely secular use (particularly as a storytelling aid), similar to how many artists and musicians use the I Ching and Brian Eno's Oblique Strategies cards (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblique_Strategies) to overcome creative blocks. Again, none of this necessarily requires "belief" - it's just an extra source of inspiration.

All of that being said, I would strongly advise against giving money to an ajumma who just set up a tarot shop next to another tarot shop after closing the fried chicken franchise that she opened on a street with four other friend chicken shops.

The kind of person who thinks all these people going to fortune tellers are taking it seriously are the kind of people who say things like "You know WWE is fake, right?"

I knew a woman once (actually an acquaintance of my wife). She was living in squalid conditions with 4 kids and a husband who didn't bring in much. One day she decided to become one of those 'all-knowing' psychic card reading monks who can channel all sorts of entities...you know the ones who shave their head, put on monk's clothing and hang a Buddhist sign outside their dilapidated houses. Some can also be seen walking around the streets and into shops and restaurants banging a wooden object and looking for donations.

She spent a month studying with another of the same ilk, who was also casually known to us, and 'voila', she suddenly became this sooth sayer, who could see the future in the cards and give advice on how to conduct your life and things to look-out for. What a load of bollocks! The worst part was people paid her good money for advice. She left her husband and kids and the last I heard (a number of years now), she was doing very well for herself (well better than living on her hubby's wage). People didn't go to her for fun, they really believed the advice she was handing out. And...they were repeat customers, dragging others along as well.

I knew a woman once (actually an acquaintance of my wife). She was living in squalid conditions with 4 kids and a husband who didn't bring in much. One day she decided to become one of those 'all-knowing' psychic card reading monks who can channel all sorts of entities...you know the ones who shave their head, put on monk's clothing and hang a Buddhist sign outside their dilapidated houses. Some can also be seen walking around the streets and into shops and restaurants banging a wooden object and looking for donations.

She spent a month studying with another of the same ilk, who was also casually known to us, and 'voila', she suddenly became this sooth sayer, who could see the future in the cards and give advice on how to conduct your life and things to look-out for. What a load of bollocks! The worst part was people paid her good money for advice. She left her husband and kids and the last I heard (a number of years now), she was doing very well for herself (well better than living on her hubby's wage). People didn't go to her for fun, they really believed the advice she was handing out. And...they were repeat customers, dragging others along as well.

I mean, basically she took orders and became a shame roadside preacher. Or she got into Amway and was really good at it. Basically, she must have been good at the game and known how to work the people.

I don't think this proves mass belief in it. I think this just proves that she was really good at the suckering people in part. I don't think it's a given that anyone who did this would be successful. However, given the number of tarot shops that pop up and close down, this suggests that success in this is determined by something else. Also, the tarot shops would be far more successful than they are. While they may be able to carve out a decent living, I don't see the levels of wealth that would truly suggest mass success and penetration.

At the very least there would be a super popular 'Tarot TV' cable station that people would call into or they'd do readings on and this would be all the rage. The absence of such I think tells us how much of a big deal and how seriously it really is taken in Korean society. Also, the fact that such a thing caused a massive decline in a previous President and (in part) calls for impeachment which eventually led to to their ouster I think is more telling than some shop the size of a nail salon.

Well Marti, as in keeping, you have gone off on some kind of tangent. One which is impossible to answer or debate...so yet again, I'm bowing out before I get dragged into the rabbit hole (Augustiner et al, 2023).

This was just a story (shaggy, if you wish) to add to the thread. If you go back 20, 30 years, and deep into the past, shamans of this kind were sought for advice and more than a few people made decisions based on the shamans advice. This was very observable and often talked about...but I forgot, you didn't live here then, you were still in school. Enough said!

Well Marti, as in keeping, you have gone off on some kind of tangent. One which is impossible to answer or debate...so yet again, I'm bowing out before I get dragged into the rabbit hole (Augustiner et al, 2023).

This was just a story (shaggy, if you wish) to add to the thread. If you go back 20, 30 years, and deep into the past, shamans of this kind were sought for advice and more than a few people made decisions based on the shamans advice. This was very observable and often talked about...but I forgot, you didn't live here then, you were still in school. Enough said!

I agree that there's always some and it's an interesting story to add. Obviously there are some suckers everywhere.

Just saying I'm not sure if it's one we can draw broad conclusions from.

At the very least there would be a super popular 'Tarot TV' cable station that people would call into or they'd do readings on and this would be all the rage.

Guess you never heard of Psychic Friends Network or Miss Cleo.

Here's a shaggy dog story: I have a friend in China whose mother was living in Korea and got tied up in this fortune telling. One day the fortune teller told this old lady that if her daughter (my friend) didn't buy a clear glass vase and a rose and position it facing her window before 6pm the following day, she would never be married. At the time my friend didn't know how to do online shopping (long story; it was a nightmare of outdated Internet Explorer plugins back then) so she called me up in tears asking me if it was too late to buy the vase. I obliged and helped her. It seemed pretty harmless but both she and her mother were 100% convinced a few years later she got married to a total b***ard so maybe I shouldn't have helped her to buy the vase

Guess you never heard of Psychic Friends Network or Miss Cleo.

Kinda my point. Where is the Korean version of this if this is so pervasive? Not saying there isn't but I don't recall any psychic channel or a big hit psychic show.

Seems like this is the sort of thing that should exist if it really was as big as people claim.

The fortune telling thing is, unfortunately, a deeply ingrained part of Korean culture. Has its roots in shamanism, I think, which is still highly practiced in many Asian cultures in general.

People basing major life decisions on fortune telling is not as bad as it was only a few decades ago (it was such a normal thing that you couldn't even get married without it not all that long ago -- and some people still won't without a fortune teller saying it's a good match), and more and more people in Korea are seeing it for what it is. I'm just happy that enough Koreans were super outraged that a politician was seeking out political advice from a fortune teller rather than from someone who's actually qualified.

A lot of my students are still on the fence about it, though. They like the idea of it, of being able to seek answers and direction from otherworldly forces, but at the same time more and more of them are willing to say that they think it's all bullshit. For the ones who believe or at least like the idea of it, it makes them more willing to move forward with a decision so that they feel like they aren't making any major mistakes.

Which I think is one of the reasons why fortune telling is so much more widespread in some cultures over others. In Korea's case, it's definitely part heritage, but I think a large part of it is also because people here are so afraid of making mistakes and losing face. There's a kind of reassurance in being able to seek guidance  from a fortune teller.

Kinda my point. Where is the Korean version of this if this is so pervasive? Not saying there isn't but I don't recall any psychic channel or a big hit psychic show.

Seems like this is the sort of thing that should exist if it really was as big as people claim.

Okay, so you accept that Americans are easily hoodwinked but not Koreans?

Incidentally, when I arrived here, the fortune tellers surrounded Tapgol Park area bigly.  Hundreds of them.  Now, it's only a small contingent there, mostly providing lucky names for offspring.

Where have they gone?  I don't know--maybe Korea is growing up, but I can assure you that the majority of people who pay fortune tellers, palm readers etc take it seriously.  It's much too expensive to be a common "entertainment" thing; sure, you might go once for fun, like at the Ren Faire but whether its Korea or the West, there's big money in it if you can master cold reading and have the right personality.

The fortune telling thing is, unfortunately, a deeply ingrained part of Korean culture. Has its roots in shamanism, I think, which is still highly practiced in many Asian cultures in general.

People basing major life decisions on fortune telling is not as bad as it was only a few decades ago (it was such a normal thing that you couldn't even get married without it not all that long ago -- and some people still won't without a fortune teller saying it's a good match), and more and more people in Korea are seeing it for what it is. I'm just happy that enough Koreans were super outraged that a politician was seeking out political advice from a fortune teller rather than from someone who's actually qualified.

A lot of my students are still on the fence about it, though. They like the idea of it, of being able to seek answers and direction from otherworldly forces, but at the same time more and more of them are willing to say that they think it's all bullshit. For the ones who believe or at least like the idea of it, it makes them more willing to move forward with a decision so that they feel like they aren't making any major mistakes.

Which I think is one of the reasons why fortune telling is so much more widespread in some cultures over others. In Korea's case, it's definitely part heritage, but I think a large part of it is also because people here are so afraid of making mistakes and losing face. There's a kind of reassurance in being able to seek guidance  from a fortune teller.

Out of boredom, I decided to do a Tarot reading for you, Chinguetti, thanks to chatgpt.

Current Situation: The Hanged Man
The Hanged Man represents a period of pause, reflection, and seeing things from a different perspective. In your friend's current situation, this card suggests that she may feel stuck or unsure about which direction to take. She might be experiencing a sense of limbo, awaiting a sign or inspiration to help guide her next steps.

Advice: The Chariot
The Chariot symbolizes willpower, determination, and taking control of one's life. As advice, this card encourages your friend to be proactive in making decisions and pursuing her goals. It's essential for her to find a balance between her desires and her responsibilities, harnessing her inner strength and determination to overcome any obstacles that may arise. By taking charge of her life, she can steer herself in the direction she desires.

Potential Outcome: Ace of Wands
The Ace of Wands represents inspiration, creativity, and a new beginning. As a potential outcome, this card suggests that if your friend follows the advice of The Chariot, she may find herself embarking on an exciting new path filled with creative energy and enthusiasm. The Ace of Wands signifies the spark of a new idea or opportunity that could provide her with the direction she seeks.

I hope this helps you. :D

Okay, so you accept that Americans are easily hoodwinked but not Koreans?

I'd say the %s are probably similar.

  It's much too expensive to be a common "entertainment" thing; sure, you might go once for fun, like at the Ren Faire but whether its Korea or the West, there's big money in it if you can master cold reading and have the right personality.

I'd imagine there's tiers. Probably ranging from a  cheap 20,000 won one that is probably not taken seriously to those that sucker people for big bucks and are basically small cult leaders.

Still one of the best intros ever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouTCtwNIYaQ