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  • Kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • I am a geek!!

    • March 02, 2027, 11:00:00 pm
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #80 on: September 23, 2022, 01:09:55 pm »
I'm multiracial. So are my parents and one set of grandparents. I'm a colorful mix of DNA and ethnically ambiguous.
Being racially "pure" is just another way of saying "inbred".

Interesting tidbit: according to recent studies on mitochondrial midichlorian DNA, nearly every single person in the world with blue eyes shares a common ancestor as recently as 6,000 to 10,000 years ago! That's as recent as only 200 generations ago!

Thus, knowing this, I can say with 100% certainty that my great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandparents did *not* have blue eyes.

Pretty amazing, innit?


Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #81 on: September 23, 2022, 01:20:14 pm »
Yeah, the fact that "race" as people think about it is a myth but for the sake of argument, lol. We're all the same race, we just have different phenotypes getting expressed.

I actually either saw a doc or read something somewhere that surmised that all of modern humanity is a result of a more shallow gene pool because a cataclysmic event way, way back had knocked the world population down to numbers that aren't ideal for genetic diversity (basically implying that a lot of inbreeding also took place, lol).

Supposedly explains why we're so prone to certain diseases like cancer.

Not saying I believe it but I thought it was a funny concept. Same as the Uncanny Valley thing.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 01:32:45 pm by Chinguetti »


Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #82 on: September 23, 2022, 01:31:58 pm »
There was a Korean guy back home who grew up in Korea, fought in the Korean War at like 19 or some such for the Korean Army (including getting stuck DEEP behind enemy lines) and at the end moved over to the U.S. in like, 1951 with zero English. Ended up starting a plastics company and married an American and raised two kids. By the time I met him which was like, 2001~2002, he was an old man and had COMPLETELY forgotten all Korean. He literally had to use the English translation for Korean sermons.

I can understand someone before the age of maybe, 8~13 ending up that way, but someone who was speaking Korean and basically only Korean at 19 and then forgetting it is crazy. But I guess whatever thing that enabled him to not get killed behind enemy lines enabled him to adapt to such a degree over in the U.S.


Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #83 on: September 23, 2022, 01:45:04 pm »
i don't think there's any value to that approach. there's so many other interesting avenues to the question (culture, socioeconomic factors, etc) that "well, how would you feel?" is a criminally boring direction to steer the conversation
Given that much of what we see on these forums are people's personal reactions and frustrations, I think "Well, how would you feel?" is actually a really good angle. I don't think some citation of some lengthy scholarly resources is necessarily going to appeal to many. Now, that's not to say it wouldn't have its place as there are definitely posters who appreciate that thing and want to have that kind of discussion, but if someone is doing something like

"Nah, it's only the old, baffled dog-eaters that you can see swilling
makeoli and smoking cigarettes in the park at 9am that feel that
way. A lot of younger Koreans are quite happy and proud to
make this place more cosmopolitan."

"I don't blame Koreans for wanting to keep their country for their own.  I don't blame them for not wanting to learn English.  However....Korea is gotten way too big for its britches and it would do them well to recheck their hubris.

But...whatever.  that's why folks say "just show up, do the job, collect your money and leave."  (back when the money was good, anyway).    Let them run their country...but, hopefully, that will come with a price so the U.S. does not to have to fund its protection, at some point. I don't blame Koreans for wanting to keep their country for their own.  I don't blame them for not wanting to learn English.  However....Korea is gotten way too big for its britches and it would do them well to recheck their hubris.

But...whatever.  that's why folks say "just show up, do the job, collect your money and leave."  (back when the money was good, anyway).    Let them run their country...but, hopefully, that will come with a price so the U.S. does not to have to fund its protection, at some point. "

I mean, compared to this, I think the discussion me and chimp was more highbrow (and I use that very loosely) than much of what was being discussed.

The fact is with these kinds of "discussions", some posters aren't looking for discussion or debate at all. I would submit that there is a greater problem with people whose reaction to someone pointing out similarities in other places and such is with anger and disgust and demands to keep it "on topic". I don't think such people are really interested in the truth or understanding or a discussion. I think they want to vent frustrations, feel better about themselves by putting others down, have their views validated, and "win".
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 01:55:04 pm by JonVoightCar »


  • Kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • I am a geek!!

    • March 02, 2027, 11:00:00 pm
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #84 on: September 23, 2022, 01:47:58 pm »
Yeah, the fact that "race" as people think about it is a myth but for the sake of argument, lol. We're all the same race, we just have different phenotypes getting expressed.

I actually either saw a doc or read something somewhere that surmised that all of modern humanity is a result of a more shallow gene pool because a cataclysmic event way, way back had knocked the world population down to numbers that aren't ideal for genetic diversity (basically implying that a lot of inbreeding also took place, lol).
    The entirety of humanity stuck on a single boat, and having the very sad luck of being stuck with only a bunch of animals and their immediate family for company. Ah well, guess Noah and co were able to make the best of a bad situation.  :lipsrsealed:  :laugh:

Cheetahs also have a genetic bottleneck from around 10,000 years ago.
Funny that it coincides with the appearance of blue eyed folk. Maybe there's a connection!
My theory is that the cheetahs from that era magically transformed themselves into the original Caucasians, just like ethnic Koreans are all derived from some garlic munching bear on a mountaintop.


  • Augustiner
  • Expert Waygook

    • 523

    • December 06, 2021, 01:18:06 pm
    • Anyang
Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #85 on: September 23, 2022, 01:49:43 pm »

The fact is with these kinds of "discussions", some posters aren't looking for discussion or debate at all. I would submit that there is a greater problem with people whose reaction to someone pointing out similarities in other places and such with anger and disgust and demands to keep it "on topic". I don't think such people are really interested in the truth or understanding or a discussion. I think they want to vent frustrations, feel better about themselves by putting others down, have their views validated, and "win".


Martino has become self-aware.  I didn't think I'd see the day.  Better late than never.  Glad the mist lifted, and you experienced the revelation eventually.  Took a lot of posts, though, eh?  A lot, a lot of posts.  Holy sh*t!


Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #86 on: September 23, 2022, 01:54:05 pm »
Put it another way...

If I said "People who are into Harry Potter and buy all the stuff seem extreme." or "Computer builders who need RGB crap all over their computers- I don't get it. Seems like they have issues."  or "What's up with these fans who don't like New Star Trek? They need to get with the times" (Or choose whatever analogy you think fits best)

and someone said to me "You know how you're into LotR? Do you see any similarities?" or "Do you remember when you put a custom intake and exhaust and stereo on your car?" or "Do you know how you don't like New Star Wars?" I would hope that my reaction would be to recognize the point- That this is essentially the same thing I did and my frustration is irrational/hypocritical or in the case of me being genuinely confused and curious, that I would have a Eureka! moment and get it. That doesn't mean you agree with it or think it's right, just that you can understand. Maybe the New Trek dead-enders need to move on and maybe they are a bunch of misogynist racist dinosaurs, but it might also mean that they have similar anxieties to you and that you might be able to see where some are coming from.


  • Savant
  • The Legend

    • 3472

    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #87 on: September 23, 2022, 02:03:48 pm »


Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #88 on: September 23, 2022, 02:10:15 pm »
    The entirety of humanity stuck on a single boat, and having the very sad luck of being stuck with only a bunch of animals and their immediate family for company. Ah well, guess Noah and co were able to make the best of a bad situation.  :lipsrsealed:  :laugh:

They actually addressed that in whatever thing I got this info from lmao.

Basically said that the Bible is not the only ancient text that describes a cataclysmic event, other ancient texts, manuscripts, and records (both religious and secular) also observe a similar or the same event. What varies is the interpretation and what happens right after. Claims were that there are similarities between stories and myths between cultures, so similar that they HAVE to be describing real events. It's just that people gave these events different interpretations, sources, and names. Many of these similarities can be written off as a result of exposure to each other as well as travel and migration, but, apparently, there are some very similar stories between certain cultures that were isolated from each other during the times these stories developed. Plus, there is actual evidence of a massive flood that took place before, although this may or may not be the cataclysmic event in question.

According to the thingy, while Earth's population had not been reduced down to just, like, 8 people, it had been reduced down to something like the thousands? Which isn't great, especially when groups of people become isolated, making the localized gene pool even more shallow and bringing about inbreeding.

This was something I "absorbed" a while back, I can't recall where I even picked it up from, and I'm sure I'm getting a lot of details wrong. But the general gist of the whole thing is that people greatly benefit from producing children with people who don't look like them, haha.

Quote
Cheetahs also have a genetic bottleneck from around 10,000 years ago.
Funny that it coincides with the appearance of blue eyed folk. Maybe there's a connection!
My theory is that the cheetahs from that era magically transformed themselves into the original Caucasians, just like ethnic Koreans are all derived from some garlic munching bear on a mountaintop.

I did know that cheetahs are incredibly inbred, but I didn't know it was because of a bottleneck, lol. Just assumed it was due to man hunting them to near extinction.


  • Kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • I am a geek!!

    • March 02, 2027, 11:00:00 pm
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #89 on: September 23, 2022, 02:36:52 pm »
Basically said that the Bible is not the only ancient text that describes a cataclysmic event, other ancient texts, manuscripts, and records (both religious and secular) also observe a similar or the same event. What varies is the interpretation and what happens right after. Claims were that there are similarities between stories and myths between cultures, so similar that they HAVE to be describing real events. It's just that people gave these events different interpretations, sources, and names. Many of these similarities can be written off as a result of exposure to each other as well as travel and migration, but, apparently, there are some very similar stories between certain cultures that were isolated from each other during the times these stories developed. Plus, there is actual evidence of a massive flood that took place before, although this may or may not be the cataclysmic event in question.
   Yep.

    My favourite (realistic, actually hypothesized by scientists) cataclysm-legend explanation is the Black Sea Deluge hypothesis.
Basically, back at the end of the last glaciation period (10,000 years ago... again with that number!), the ice sheets were melting, and the sea level was beginning to rise again. The Black Sea basin, home of the cradle of civilization, was just a big lake at the time, as it was separated from the Mediterranean, and therefor wasn't linked to the rising sea levels.
When the Mediterranean sea finally spilled into the Black sea basin, it poured in at a rate of about 50 cubic kilometres a day for about a year. That's, like, over 200 times the volume of water going over the Niagara falls.
   Long story short, it was literally sink or swim for several entire ancient civilizations, and might be the root of a lot of the flood myths.
I learned about this via an Orson Scott Card book (Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus): I fact checked a bunch of the plot points, found that they were pretty BS, but learned some neat *actually* theories instead.
Interesting book, btw, especially if you like alternative history.


  • chimp
  • Super Waygook

    • 302

    • April 19, 2015, 05:16:31 am
    • Zoo
Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #90 on: September 25, 2022, 09:56:48 pm »
Yes and no. *ducks*

I'm sorry, I just can't think in such terms about such a complicated topic. Simply because there are so many different motivations out there for English and I can't pigeonhole an entire nation of people into a "yes" or "no" answer on this. I just don't think it would be an accurate assessment of the situation.

I would certainly agree that in some cases, and not unusually, there is definite strangeness. But then one could say that about education in general here. And of course how much of that is actually strange vs. simply my own bias? But leaving the bias issue aside, yeah some Koreans have an unhealthy obsession with English. Others have an unhealthy rejection of English. Some people are just going through the motions for graduating and getting paid- it's just another thing you do, like literature class or Spanish or gym or the 1 mandatory art class you had to take or whatever. Everyone has that one area of education that they just aren't enthusiastic about but still have to do.

Everytime I think of some Korean being weird, I think also of some Korean being normal about English. And everytime I think of some Korean being normal, I think of one being weird. Is that weird? Or is that normal? I mean, I could be the weird one!

Geez, I'm starting to sound like a philosopher/wishy-washy academic....

I respect and appreciate your answer. I've nothing more to say on the matter.
oo oo ahh ahh


  • 745sticky
  • The Legend

    • 2235

    • March 26, 2020, 01:52:57 pm
    • Korea
Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #91 on: September 26, 2022, 11:39:00 am »
The fact is with these kinds of "discussions", some posters aren't looking for discussion or debate at all.

i dont engage with those posts.


I would submit that there is a greater problem with people whose reaction to someone pointing out similarities in other places and such is with anger and disgust and demands to keep it "on topic".

not to repeat myself, but i still think that "well, how would you feel" is a pointless question, and boiling down the "weirdness" of english education in korea to "well, some people just dont want to learn english, just like you didnt want to learn spanish in high school" is missing a lot
« Last Edit: September 26, 2022, 11:47:07 am by 745sticky »


Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #92 on: September 26, 2022, 01:22:52 pm »
not to repeat myself, but i still think that "well, how would you feel" is a pointless question
I don't think it is. If we think that it is a pointless question, without value, then we basically reject the notion of empathy.  This inability to empathize with others often causes people to start to draw bad conclusions and misunderstand motivations. In fact, I would submit that "How would you feel?" is actually one of the very first places one should look for answers as very often it can lead to the answer as to "Why are X people doing X thing?" Perhaps the only better question to ask is "What do these people say is their reason for feeling the way they do?"

Instead the approach that some have taken seems to be to both reject how we would feel AND reject what the people themselves say, and instead go with a third choice- assuming we know the answer and applying it upon them.

"Is it because if the situation were reversed we'd have similar issues?- Why even ask that?"
"Are they upset  because the reason they said?" No. That's just nonsense.

"What is the truth? These people are upset for the reason I think they are upset." (which is often based on some sort of prejudiced assumption or caricature of the people- Ahh those Arabs are always angry about something. Of course they're going to try and bomb the U.S. Army currently occupying their country and at times propping up corrupt figures."

Quote
and boiling down the "weirdness" of english education in korea to "well, some people just dont want to learn english, just like you didnt want to learn spanish in high school" is missing a lot
Again, this starts from a premise which I'm not sure is proven- That Korean English education is "weird".



  • chimp
  • Super Waygook

    • 302

    • April 19, 2015, 05:16:31 am
    • Zoo
Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #93 on: September 26, 2022, 01:55:16 pm »
Again, this starts from a premise which I'm not sure is proven- That Korean English education is "weird".



Hold on hold on, dafuq is this pseud-ish rubbish? You can get away with it when talking to or about the hoi polloi on this board but not with me.

Of course it isn't proven in the same way that my opinion that Breaking Bad ain't as good as people reckon is also unproven. It's unproven because it's just an opinion.

Now I've already presented, in bowdlerized form, my reasons for why I think what I think, and you can agree or disagree with it. What it isn't, though, is a premise. It's not a premise in a syllogism in some freshman community college philosophy class.

Unless you or someone else is planning to say something further about the extent to which you think my assessment is well-made or not, there's nothing more interesting to say on the matter.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2022, 01:59:04 pm by chimp »
oo oo ahh ahh


Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #94 on: September 26, 2022, 04:15:27 pm »
Hold on hold on, dafuq is this pseud-ish rubbish? You can get away with it when talking to or about the hoi polloi on this board but not with me.

Of course it isn't proven in the same way that my opinion that Breaking Bad ain't as good as people reckon is also unproven. It's unproven because it's just an opinion.

Now I've already presented, in bowdlerized form, my reasons for why I think what I think, and you can agree or disagree with it. What it isn't, though, is a premise. It's not a premise in a syllogism in some freshman community college philosophy class.

Unless you or someone else is planning to say something further about the extent to which you think my assessment is well-made or not, there's nothing more interesting to say on the matter.
well, if we're just keeping it to casual opinion, then I'd say that as a matter of opinion goes, it would be a good idea for someone to maybe exercise some empathy before declaring something to be "weird".

In my opinion, I think it's a bit lazy to not consider how we'd feel if the situation were reversed. if Korean was a global language and there was a strong incentive for people in say, the UK to learn Korean such that it could have a dramatic effect on their standard of living and that many signs were in Korean and half of modern English words were mixed with Korean. In my opinion, the English would have a rather agitated reaction to this, probably far more severe than Koreans ever had and would likely have already reached the point of violent demonstrations. in my opinion, if we took that basic step of empathy we can see that the reaction of Korea is NOT in fact, weird at all, nor that surprising, rather it is pretty predictable and if anything, has been rather subdued when considering how some others might react.


Now, in my opinion, I think there are some issues involved.

in my opinion, some posters on this board are trying to cast Koreans as "wrong" and "different" without taking half a second to consider that perhaps they aren't that weird, it's just they've never sat on the other side. They lack the experience that comes with being on the other side and thus can't grasp how people would feel seeing much of their language and identity coming under global influence. In my opinion, perhaps posters from Belgium or France or Italy or somewhere else might not view this as all that absurd. I can imagine the citizens of Marseille or Napoli perhaps not being the most supportive of constant English branding and spending.

In my opinion, we also flat-out engage in similar behaviors. I have personally seen and heard and myself engaged in, deliberate mispronunciation and mocking of the Korean language. Almost every NET I have met has done something. Most of the time it isn't anything big. When you think about it, it IS wrong but it's also not that big of a deal. Koreans all do it too. We do ridiculous British/American accents and mispronunciations. We do ridiculous French accents and mispronunciations. In my opinion it's either some big sign of resentment in BOTH groups or neither.

In my opinion this isn't whataboutism or deflection. This is the basic courtesy of trying to understand where people are coming from. It's also about doing the basic courtesy of applying the same standard to others that we would apply to ourselves. It has been understood that the admonition to not judge the speck in another's eye when you have a plank in yours was not about the person with a speck having nothing wrong, but about you being oblivious to the state of your own affairs and committing the exact same offense. In my opinion, it is rather poor form to cast stones for the same offenses, worse so to cast stones and be oblivious to having committed the same sins. If you want to understand people and not just judge them, this is what you do. Of course in my opinion, many people here were more interested in judging than understanding and thus why they had such a reaction- They didn't want to understand or consider. They wanted to judge. This ultimately wasn't about Koreans, but them. Their interest in this was seeing their judgmental opinions validated.

All that being said, in my opinion I think chimp gave a very good showing in all of this. Lots of posters gave the guy stick, but he clearly has more going on than they give him credit for. Also, thanks to 745Sticky for being patient. I don't think you guys are being closed-minded and judgmental, even if completely disagreeing with my points. at least you're engaging on the level of the argument.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2022, 04:17:50 pm by JonVoightCar »


  • 745sticky
  • The Legend

    • 2235

    • March 26, 2020, 01:52:57 pm
    • Korea
Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #95 on: September 27, 2022, 10:39:05 am »
Again, this starts from a premise which I'm not sure is proven- That Korean English education is "weird".

if you want to get more specific about it, maybe "ineffective" and "flawed" are better words. and i dont think that looking at the flaws in our own education helps much because they're different systems, not to mention (as youve already pointed out) having to learn english bc its a global language is different from learning spanish or whatever bc its a course credit.

anyways, this is sort of besides the point, so i think ill take a second stab at explaining why i think introspection isn't particularly valuable here. going back to one of your older posts:

People are wondering why Koreans have a certain attitude regarding learning a language or do certain things like speak in exaggerated accents.

Going out on a limb here but maybe, just maybe, it might be good to look at how we would react if the situations were reversed and why we at times engage in the same behavior.

if we want to know why people act a certain way, why would it not be better to simply observe how they act? my main issue with your posts is that they seem to be more pointed towards getting certain posters to acknowledge that they're just as bad than anything else, which also comes with the implicit assumption that we do think we/our countries are better.

i don't think thats true, i think that people are discussing/dunking on crotchety old (probably racist) koreans because we're english speakers that live here, and the article/topic is directly relevant to us and our careers (for those of us that have one here, at least). if we were on some americans teacher forum im sure the article wouldn't even have come up and we would be discussing those crotchety old racist white southerners who dont want their kids learning spanish or whatever.

or do certain things like speak in exaggerated accents.

i dont necessarily think its resentment like chimp said, but i also dont think its anything we have any equivalent experience to. of course a lot of the time people are just goofing around but it might also be worth considering portrayal of foreign accents in american media and how a lot of comedians (nigel ng/uncle roger being a good example) play up their accent for comedic affect, and how seeing the success of these portrayals might affect regular speakers of that language.



that said, lets move on to your most recent post:

well, if we're just keeping it to casual opinion, then I'd say that as a matter of opinion goes, it would be a good idea for someone to maybe exercise some empathy before declaring something to be "weird".

again, you seem to really take some particular offense to the word "weird". if it makes you feel any better, feel free to swap it out with "strange" or "different". a lot of things outside of the states are "weird" for americans, a lot of things outside of korea are "weird" to koreans. if you want you could expand this to a west/east divide in general.

In my opinion, I think it's a bit lazy to not consider how we'd feel if the situation were reversed.

in my opinion, i think its quite lazy to reduce a complex topic to "well, how would you feel?", which again, given by your posting habits i believe you are mainly pursuing because you want other people to acknowledge that similar issues exist in other countries, despite the fact that nobody has given any indication of denying that - it just isnt the topic of the thread.

in my opinion, if we took that basic step of empathy we can see that the reaction of Korea is NOT in fact, weird at all, nor that surprising, rather it is pretty predictable and if anything, has been rather subdued when considering how some others might react.

nah, its still weird. and if the roles were reversed and there was a similar 100 anti-korean groups or whatever in england, that would be weird too. this is something that is generally understood, and its rather frustrating that im forced to spell out that korean thing bad =/= same thing in every country nonexistant/good.

in my opinion, some posters on this board are trying to cast Koreans as "wrong" and "different" without taking half a second to consider that perhaps they aren't that weird, it's just they've never sat on the other side. They lack the experience that comes with being on the other side and thus can't grasp how people would feel seeing much of their language and identity coming under global influence.

i believe the subject of the thread is 100 or so anti-english groups, not sure why youd take that to be indicative of all koreans

All that being said, in my opinion I think chimp gave a very good showing in all of this. Lots of posters gave the guy stick, but he clearly has more going on than they give him credit for.

scroll through chimps post history sometime, he sorta brings that on himself