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Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #60 on: September 23, 2022, 08:57:38 am »
I guess Marty is not teaching "how to stay on topic". Or he actually does, and it's why so many of his students have a messed up understanding of English.
The utter lack of self-awareness in this post....


  • Savant
  • The Legend

    • 3473

    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2022, 09:06:39 am »
The utter lack of self-awareness in this post....

Pot…kettle…and so on.


  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 7838

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #62 on: September 23, 2022, 09:07:06 am »
There is likely a selection bias at work here. Those (NETs) that go to Korean classes are likely to be more incentivized and enthusiastic at learning Korean than the NET population as a whole.

It’s survivorship bias, too. Those who are talented at learning Korean continue with classes. Most people initially want to learn Korean, but then give up when they realize how hard it is.

How to be good at Korean:
Be talented at language learning.
Study for hours a day every day for years and years and years. To have a shot. Even then is no guarantee.

People who are not good at Korean see expats saying simple things as amazing … “My name is… I’m from… I’m fine thank you, and you.” Korean sounds are coming out of their mouth. A low level person isn’t in the position to assess them and may errantly think they are fluent. That happened to me. “Omg, this guy’s a legend! He’s fluent in Korean.” I sure as hell am not. I took tons of classes and progress has been a slow grind. It’s f-cking depressing to think about when weighing the opportunity cost vs benefit. Could have learned Spanish. Could have learned computer programming.

I read on here: “I used to think the expats who’ve lived in Korea for ages without being able to speak Korean were stupid. Now I think they’re smart.”

I’m on the fence on whether studying Korean is a good use of one’s time. Hard to know.


  • 745sticky
  • The Legend

    • 2243

    • March 26, 2020, 01:52:57 pm
    • Korea
Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2022, 09:13:45 am »
I’m on the fence on whether studying Korean is a good use of one’s time. Hard to know.

entirely depends on whether or not you plan on setting down roots here, imho. its also a worthwhile subject if its something you find interesting, but if that were the case itd be more akin to a hobby. i havent pursued it personally since i would def look at it as work and i find work after work depressing, and i shipped over here partly to avoid letting someone talk me into grad school.

one thing i will say is dont be sheepish about it, that just gives people more leverage to hold it against you. better to just own it


Or we could not consider it and just wag a finger at them and congratulate ourselves on being better. Which do YOU think is the better approach- self-examination, consideration and putting ourselves in  others' shoes OR going "That's whataboutism. Don't bring that up"?

definitely the latter, since it'd save us from you repeating the same tired arguments ad nauseum. you have this weird habit of spamming wordsalad to avoid actually talking about issues you don't want to talk about directly. if you don't want to engage with the point, simply don't engage with it.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 09:20:28 am by 745sticky »


  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 7838

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2022, 09:19:27 am »
The older a person is, the slower progress will come. How high of an opportunity are you willing to pay? And how high the opportunity cost will be is unknown. Same with the amount of benefit. How valuable is your free time? How enjoyable is studying Korean?


  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 7838

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2022, 09:22:34 am »
How long until I can speak Korean?

A long time. It takes a really long time.


https://www.howtostudykorean.com/other-stuff/meet-the-teachers/#

In 2010, I moved to Korea and was lucky to have a job where I had a lot of free time. I studied for 4-5 hours per day – with about half of my time dedicated to grammar study and half of it dedicated to vocabulary. In addition, I was living in Korea at the time which gave me the benefit of being able to practice what I was learning at every opportunity. As I got better and better (i.e. as I studied more and more), I was able to slowly start having conversations with people. I kept this up for three years.

In 2013, grammar and vocabulary no longer became my main focus, and I focused more on practical reading, writing, listening and speaking skills. I had less time at this point, but I was still able to dedicate a few hours each day to my studies.

This is just an example, but you need to accept that you will not learn Korean overnight.




  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 7838

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2022, 09:27:14 am »
Do you want to study Korean for four to five hours a day for years on end just to have a shot at being able to converse decently?

That’s a devastating realization.

Any child can pick up a second language.

Not everyone adult can.

And if they do, it will take much longer.

Pisses me off.


Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2022, 10:25:47 am »
I remember reading a while back that it's been found that kids and adults are actually able to learn new languages at about the same rate, although kids have a better ear and will pick up the sounds more naturally. Practically speaking, the real reason why adults seem to learn languages more slowly than kids do is because adults can't dedicate the same amount of time to it within the same span.

Kids have all the time in the world, they go to school while we go to work, their only job is to learn. As an adult, there are obligations that take up all of that spare time, especially if you also have a family to care for. So when you do have spare time, you just want to use it the way you want to use it. 

So no matter what age you are, it's more about how much time and motivation you have as well as your access to different resources.

Obviously there are caveats (the way different people's brains are wired, they can have affinity for one thing over another which can affect their pace), but that's what such-and-such article I read back in the day said.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 10:34:32 am by Chinguetti »


  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 7838

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2022, 10:47:09 am »
Kids have shorter attention spans. They want to play. They don’t yet have the maturity and wisdom to understand the importance of knowing a language, thus are less motivated.

But they have better natural talent for sound differentiation, sound production… AND grammar acquisition, all of which are hella important.

I wish that weren’t true, but it is.

Equal amounts of language practice will result in poorer results the older one becomes.

Exposure to a language at a young age is the way to become fluent.

———-

From the Scientific American mag:

“Researchers concluded that the ability to learn a new language, at least grammatically, is strongest until the age of 18 after which there is a precipitous decline. To become completely fluent, however, learning should start before the age of 10.”
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 10:55:26 am by L I »


Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2022, 11:45:44 am »
Yes, all of that would fall under the caveats I've already mentioned.

However, from that same article that you quoted:

"There are three main ideas as to why language-learning ability declines at 18: social changes, interference from one’s primary language and continuing brain development. At 18, kids typically graduate high school and go on to start college or enter the work force full-time. Once they do, they may no longer have the time, opportunity or learning environment to study a second language like they did when they were younger."

Furthermore, also from that same article, and regarding the topic of fluency:

"In what could be the most surprising conclusion, the researchers say that even among native speakers it takes 30 years to fully master a language. The study showed a slight improvement—roughly one percentage point—in people who have been speaking English for 30 versus 20 years. The finding is consistent for both native and non-native speakers."

Dissenting opinions do follow, but the point is it's not really all that cut and dry.

And then there's this:

https://www.telc.net/en/about-telc/news/detail/do-children-really-learn-languages-faster-than-adults.html

Basically the gist of my point is there are many factors at work here, but the bottom line is adults just have other things going on in their lives. There's a lot of nuance in between, but that's the way it is.

Regardless, though, I do believe that the best time to introduce a 2nd and 3rd language is as early in a child's life as possible, and not just for the elasticity of their developing minds. It's more about establishing an affinity for that kind of thing. Just make it a natural part of their life rather than making it this extra thing they've got to study just for the hell of it.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 11:51:08 am by Chinguetti »


  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 7838

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #70 on: September 23, 2022, 11:52:44 am »
That’s a short opinion piece of speculation written by a language teaching company. Huge conflict of interest.



Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #71 on: September 23, 2022, 11:52:49 am »
the latter, since it'd save us from you repeating the same tired arguments ad nauseum. you have this weird habit of spamming wordsalad to avoid actually talking about issues you don't want to talk about directly. if you don't want to engage with the point, simply don't engage with it.
I actually do want to talk about it. The point was "Koreans are frustrated/weird/whatever about learning English."

In order to understand why THEY feel that way, I think the best way to do so is to understand why WE do such things and have such feelings. I think it is also useful to describe the scope of "Koreans" because I don't think things are uniform on this.

I don't think that's word salad. I think that's trying to seriously examine the issue and to not just know but to understand why.

Sometimes (I don't think so in chimp's case give his reasonable and well-considered reply) sometimes people ask these "Why do Koreans...?" questions, but they're not really asking a question. Why? Because when someone answers, depending on the answer, they'll either approve or get upset. That is weird way to respond when someone is legitimately asking a question. What such responses indicate are that the person wasn't asking a question at all or trying to understand, but instead offering an opinion cloaked as a question.

People whose reaction to pointing out such similarities or comparisons is to be angered and upset likely aren't looking for an explanation or understanding but validation and confirmation- "Yes those people really are uniquely bad, just like how you feel."


Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #72 on: September 23, 2022, 11:56:10 am »
That’s a short opinion piece of speculation written by a language teaching company. Huge conflict of interest.

Except there are multiple articles out there stating much the same, and it doesn't disagree with the article you posted. It just expanded some of the variables and discusses some of the nuances in greater detail. The article you quoted does not contradict the info, it mentions the same things, and it also mentions that not all researchers are in agreement.

« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 12:01:03 pm by Chinguetti »


  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 7838

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #73 on: September 23, 2022, 11:58:00 am »
How good is your Korean? You were exposed to Korean at a young age? (Many of those who are ethnically Korean here were. They have a big leg up.)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 12:02:59 pm by L I »


  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 7838

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #74 on: September 23, 2022, 11:59:49 am »
OK, guys and gals, think of the person you know who has been in Korean the longest. How good is he at Korean? Could he score above beginner level on the TOPIK test?


Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #75 on: September 23, 2022, 12:00:01 pm »
My Korean is good enough to get me by, and I don't have the time to dedicate to learning a new language as much as kids do. :)

I will say that I speak Korean better than any of my students speak English, and I've been learning it for far less time.


  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 7838

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #76 on: September 23, 2022, 12:02:16 pm »
Are ethnically Korean? Were you exposed to Korean at a young age?


  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 7838

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #77 on: September 23, 2022, 12:05:10 pm »
I read that being exposed to any second language at a young age is advantageous when learning a third later in life. Canadians with French experience have an advantage. So do Saffers.


  • 745sticky
  • The Legend

    • 2243

    • March 26, 2020, 01:52:57 pm
    • Korea
Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #78 on: September 23, 2022, 12:06:26 pm »
I actually do want to talk about it. The point was "Koreans are frustrated/weird/whatever about learning English."

In order to understand why THEY feel that way, I think the best way to do so is to understand why WE do such things and have such feelings.

i don't think there's any value to that approach. there's so many other interesting avenues to the question (culture, socioeconomic factors, etc) that "well, how would you feel?" is a criminally boring direction to steer the conversation


Re: Over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English
« Reply #79 on: September 23, 2022, 12:11:23 pm »
Are ethnically Korean? Were you exposed to Korean at a young age?

I'm multiracial. So are my parents and one set of grandparents. I'm a colorful mix of DNA and ethnically ambiguous.

I have Koreans in my family, but no, I was not exposed to Korean at a young age. I didn't even meet my Korean relatives until I was almost graduated from high school.