Busan's drive for English as 'common language' rolls on despite protests

Now that would be a productive use of the mods' time.  Limit the thread spillover. 

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^..cultural reconstructionist over there.

Linkin Park is great, but not as great as Nickelback.

OK, OK...I see your point.

But again, these folks were simply hired.  If a uni in Korea is giving an E-2 visa...does that not make a line in the sand between a lowly E-2?

I see your point, though. 

As another thread is chirping...Korea does not want foreigners in their pure blood system.  ESL/EFL is a necessary evil to them.  If ESL in Korea (and other countries) was not treated in the same manner as the customer service industry, which it unfairly is (and reduces the reputability of market as a whole..by design), would anyone feel different about the situation?  If public schools actually made English a class that students had to pass, would it feed up to university? 

perhaps...the fact that not many people in the world care so much about the Korean language as they do English, is what bothers the Korean psyche.  After all, they have BTS and..who else, Hot Pink?  Then again, Western ( at the very least, American) education is such a shite-show, perhaps there is no longer a need to have any respect for English.  Perhaps French should take its place, as the lingua franca?  I would not opposed to that.  But, Koreans would be faced with the same dilemma....one has to practice..(and French sounds sooooo much better).

Anyway, I see your point.  But, if someone can slide his/her way into a university position and skate by, giving out cany and playing the role of "charmer"....by all means, profess away.  ESL is not that hard, nor is it linguistics.  Practice, it takes....not jazz hands and sparkle fingers (yet, more women continue to get hired for those two reasons).

Anyways....waygook professors.  Right...well....if you can get in, go get it.  But, don't rely on conscious to say "While teach at a university, I'm NOT a professor.I just work there.". 

The title often times gets one laid.

It seemed to me that Koreans have a certain feeling of ressentiment, as well as resentment, towards English. It plays out in the way they simultaneously place themselves under tremendous pressure to learn it while turning it into a joke of a subject- "English is FUN!" That's why y'all are typically expected to act like dancing clowns, it soothes that frustration because they can believe English is clearly not a serious language compared to Korean. I suspect the kind of weird cultural comparison questions that crop up from time to time serve a similar function. It's less about wanting to get know you or your culture, and more about asserting their own culture.

 I also suspect the ludicrous mispronunciation of English on TV shows is another way of expressing this frustration. I remember one show where they were following some Korean woman travelling in the US and she randomly yells at some passing boomer couple "I am plom da kolea!!" and they politely yet bemusedly reply "...good?" Or another one where some Korean celebrity was in Canada in some random local's home and they are cooking something and the Korean woman describes some dull food as "bely bely gooooooooooood!" The Canadian woman is again bemused yet polite.

So glad I don't have to do esl shite anymore, it's a circus. Esl professors are clowns as much as the average hakwon chew-toy teacher or public school game co-ordinator.

I suspect the kind of weird cultural comparison questions that crop up from time to time serve a similar function. It's less about wanting to get know you or your culture, and more about asserting their own culture.

Perhaps, but I imagine this would be pretty common in many of our own countries. I mean, we don't have anything like this kind of push and you still encounter a fair amount of jingoism and an entitled attitude towards English wherever we travel. Can you imagine if everyone in England had to learn Korean in school and England was bringing in Korean teachers and paying them working~middle class salaries?

I mean, Korean is all fun and nice when its Parasite, Squid Game and BTS, but what about when your kids or you have their career prospects affected by it? I imagine there would be a lot of mixed feelings. Look at how some embittered expats who live here react to the Korean language.

I also suspect the ludicrous mispronunciation of English on TV shows is another way of expressing this frustration.

Quite likely. It's why pretty much everyone here has done some ludicrous pronunciation of Korean at one time or another.

Look at how some embittered expats who live here react to the Korean language.

What percentage of English teachers who have lived here a loooooong time can speak Korean well? Very few. It’s a rarity. After 10, 20, 30 years. Reasons: Korean is less useful than English on a global scale, and they didn’t plan on staying so long, but one year became two became three and time flies. The Korean language is hard as hell. Huge opportunity cost. Adults generally are much worse than kids at hearing and speaking sounds of a new language. Korean has many sounds. (Way more than Japanese, for example.) We weren’t exposed to Korean at a young age. Result: stuck at a low level.

does your whataboutism contribute anything to the topic at hand, or are you just defending the "honor" of korea or however you want to put it by proving that other people are just as bad?

Quite likely. It's why pretty much everyone here has done some ludicrous pronunciation of Korean at one time or another.

Oh man, I thought he was confined to the Ukraine thread?  This JVC is as thin-skinned as Martino.  Everyone else would've laughed at that bit.  JVC had to take it seriously. 

does your whataboutism contribute anything to the topic at hand, or are you just defending the "honor" of korea or however you want to put it by proving that other people are just as bad?

People are wondering why Koreans have a certain attitude regarding learning a language or do certain things like speak in exaggerated accents.

Going out on a limb here but maybe, just maybe, it might be good to look at how we would react if the situations were reversed and why we at times engage in the same behavior.

Or we could not consider it and just wag a finger at them and congratulate ourselves on being better. Which do YOU think is the better approach- self-examination, consideration and putting ourselves in  others' shoes OR going "That's whataboutism. Don't bring that up"?

People are wondering why Koreans have a certain attitude regarding learning a language or do certain things like speak in exaggerated accents.

Going out on a limb here but maybe, just maybe, it might be good to look at how we would react if the situations were reversed and why we at times engage in the same behavior.

Or we could not consider it and just wag a finger at them and congratulate ourselves on being better. Which do YOU think is the better approach- self-examination, consideration and putting ourselves in  others' shoes OR going "That's whataboutism. Don't bring that up"?

Or we could discuss the topic at hand which was "over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English," instead of you surprising no one by jumping in and delivering the same old schtick.

Perhaps, but I imagine this would be pretty common in many of our own countries. I mean, we don't have anything like this kind of push and you still encounter a fair amount of jingoism and an entitled attitude towards English wherever we travel. Can you imagine if everyone in England had to learn Korean in school and England was bringing in Korean teachers and paying them working~middle class salaries?

I mean, Korean is all fun and nice when its Parasite, Squid Game and BTS, but what about when your kids or you have their career prospects affected by it? I imagine there would be a lot of mixed feelings. Look at how some embittered expats who live here react to the Korean language.
Quite likely. It's why pretty much everyone here has done some ludicrous pronunciation of Korean at one time or another.

Sure, I'd be willing to bet it'd be the same. For English speakers I'd agree with criticism of the way many assume that people in other countries should speak English, plus the embarrassing way some think that speaking louder will somehow get their point across.

I think you somewhat miss what I'm saying about mispronunciation. I'm not criticizing mispronunciation qua mispronunciation. The cases I have in mind are more how they are engaged in as a "haha isn't this language so ridiculous?" entertainment.

All that said, I stand by the thrust of my point. The attitude towards English here is a little weird and f-ed up. I learned a third language while here just to remind myself that learning a language doesn't have to be the arduous drama that many Koreans have turned English into. With a bit of persistence and patience the results are satisfactory. No FUN! involved, just methodical application of effort.

*having another read of your comment. The career prospects thing. A lot of it is stuff they inflict on themselves. The place I work requires good English scores even though most departments don't use English. You have all these poor hopefuls slaving away at their Hackers vocabulary books and test prep books and it all seems rather meaningless. They seem to try to memorize the entire language and test, yet if you ask if they ever just use the language, they never do so it never properly gels in their mind. I ask"do try to read an English-language author in the original language?" "No I don't read books, only webtoons". "Movies? TV? etc" "No". There's a futile idea that you can become good at a language without ever really using it. Like learning it without really having to learn it. This is probably another vector of the dancing clown NET / FUN! thing. NET did a funny (and if he tries to teach I will quit because it's too difficult and boring), but I'm in class with a NET, NET is good for English, so I must be studying English in a useful and effective way.

Or we could discuss the topic at hand which was "over a hundred groups in Korea oppose English," instead of you surprising no one by jumping in and delivering the same old schtick.

Dude, why don't you take issue with chimp over this? He posted it, I replied.

You also seem to be highly selective when it comes to "stay on topic". If it's something you agree with, you don't mind. You only object when the opinion differs from yours. Really, your problem isn't with a tangent, it's with someone having a different view.

I think you somewhat miss what I'm saying about mispronunciation. I'm not criticizing mispronunciation qua mispronunciation. The cases I have in mind are more how they are engaged in as a "haha isn't this language so ridiculous?" entertainment.

While certainly that's the case when Koreans do it. I just think that we do that at times with Korean as well and thus if we want to know why they do it, we should probably look at why we do it as well.

I mean, lets not forget this great moment of enlightenment

The attitude towards English here is a little weird and f-ed up. I learned a third language while here just to remind myself that learning a language doesn't have to be the arduous drama that many Koreans have turned English into. With a bit of persistence and patience the results are satisfactory. No FUN! involved, just methodical application of effort.

Well certainly there is reactionary element here that is just resentful and a bunch of dead-enders. At the same time there are people who don't have a problem at all or take pride in it or in lots of cases, knowing English is "natural" for them and not an issue simply because of their life experience.

I learned a third language while here just to remind myself that learning a language doesn't have to be the arduous drama that many Koreans have turned English into.

I think it might be better to compare Koreans who learn a language like Spanish or French or Arabic vs. ones learning English. I think that would do a better job of comparing attitudes when it comes to learning a foreign language as an elective vs. something that is a standard for admission to universities and career advancement (not just opportunity)

There's a futile idea that you can become good at a language without ever really using it. Like learning it without really having to learn it. This is probably another vector of the dancing clown NET / FUN! thing. NET did a funny (and if he tries to teach I will quit because it's too difficult and boring), but I'm in class with a NET, NET is good for English, so I must be studying English in a useful and effective way.

In some cases, I think there's a combination of defeatism, the fact that it really isn't critical and the "certification" nature that is often involved. A lot of workers seem to be trying to learn for the sake of looking like they're putting in the effort and their actual expectation of success is low (and this defeatism may compound the attitude with bad study habits and such). This really is an inefficient use of resources as they could be learning a different skill other than English that might be more worthwhile.

Also, you also have some who are just doing it in the same way people start up a new hobby and lose interest or think they can get good quick. Like golf or cooking or pottery or playing the guitar. Or its done in much the same way weight loss or quitting smoking is approached- Start with a goal of making yourself better and trying to cut corners and it all burns out after 2 months.

My guess is only a small percentage are truly committed to improvement and the rest are just doing it on impulse or out of obligation or out of anxiety and fear. That's not to say there aren't other motivations involved in English and other attitudes regarding it, but we can't discount how many are just normal people acting like normal people.

But yes, as you say a lot is self-inflicted and a reallocation of their time and resources to other pursuits might be more worthwhile.

What percentage of English teachers who have lived here a loooooong time can speak Korean well? Very few. It’s a rarity. After 10, 20, 30 years. Reasons: Korean is less useful than English on a global scale, and they didn’t plan on staying so long, but one year became two became three and time flies. The Korean language is hard as hell. Huge opportunity cost. Adults generally are much worse than kids at hearing and speaking sounds of a new language. Korean has many sounds. (Way more than Japanese, for example.) We weren’t exposed to Korean at a young age. Result: stuck at a low level.

I have found that people who have gone to Korean classes get better very fast.
But show me a hagwon owner or school that wants to invest the time and money
to increase the Korean ability of a teacher. Almost never happens. In fact it
happens more often for factory labourers from S.E. Asian countries.

I have found that people who have gone to Korean classes get better very fast.

There is likely a selection bias at work here. Those (NETs) that go to Korean classes are likely to be more incentivized and enthusiastic at learning Korean than the NET population as a whole. If Korean classes were mandatory for ALL NETs we might see a difference in results.

Then again, maybe these results are down to the quality of Korean education and teachers and that is why they are getting disproportionately positive outcomes.

But show me a hagwon owner or school that wants to invest the time and money
to increase the Korean ability of a teacher. Almost never happens. In fact it
happens more often for factory labourers from S.E. Asian countries.

There likely is a financial incentive. Also, there is the labor pool of bilingual people out there that any demand for such positions is likely filled.

While certainly that's the case when Koreans do it. I just think that we do that at times with Korean as well and thus if we want to know why they do it, we should probably look at why we do it as well.

I mean, lets not forget this great moment of enlightenment

Well certainly there is reactionary element here that is just resentful and a bunch of dead-enders. At the same time there are people who don't have a problem at all or take pride in it or in lots of cases, knowing English is "natural" for them and not an issue simply because of their life experience.
I think it might be better to compare Koreans who learn a language like Spanish or French or Arabic vs. ones learning English. I think that would do a better job of comparing attitudes when it comes to learning a foreign language as an elective vs. something that is a standard for admission to universities and career advancement (not just opportunity)
In some cases, I think there's a combination of defeatism, the fact that it really isn't critical and the "certification" nature that is often involved. A lot of workers seem to be trying to learn for the sake of looking like they're putting in the effort and their actual expectation of success is low (and this defeatism may compound the attitude with bad study habits and such). This really is an inefficient use of resources as they could be learning a different skill other than English that might be more worthwhile.

Also, you also have some who are just doing it in the same way people start up a new hobby and lose interest or think they can get good quick. Like golf or cooking or pottery or playing the guitar. Or its done in much the same way weight loss or quitting smoking is approached- Start with a goal of making yourself better and trying to cut corners and it all burns out after 2 months.

My guess is only a small percentage are truly committed to improvement and the rest are just doing it on impulse or out of obligation or out of anxiety and fear. That's not to say there aren't other motivations involved in English and other attitudes regarding it, but we can't discount how many are just normal people acting like normal people.

But yes, as you say a lot is self-inflicted and a reallocation of their time and resources to other pursuits might be more worthwhile.

Yes yes, many factors/people are people and so forth, I know.

You talk around the point alot. I expressed a straightforward and subjective opinion/feeling, i.e. there's something weird and tiresome about English education and attitudes towards it here plus a bit about why makes me feel that way. Just answer in a simple way- do you or do you not also feel the same? Resist the urge to continue with more explanations/rationalizations/teaching your grandmother to suck eggs, I'd already thought of them all.

Something like this:

"Yes, the vibe is a bit weird"

"No, I think it's fine"

Edit* ah, I looked at the picture you posted. I'd ignored it think it was an ad. Totally downright dumb and rude, I agree. I also agreed before that there are messed up attitudes back in our own countries. Keep in mind, I am expressing an opinion about what I have seen and heard in this country. There's nothing more and nothing less to it. There are some people who treat it normally yes I already know, but they are not enough in number to outweigh the dismayingly clownish vibe that emanates from the whole NET thing combined with locals stressing themselves out learning English when it's not necessary.

^ A solid, polite, nuanced post.

  

It seemed to me that Koreans have a certain feeling of ressentiment, as well as resentment, towards English.

This whole post is very well put.  I agree.

I guess Marty is not teaching "how to stay on topic". Or he actually does, and it's why so many of his students have a messed up understanding of English.

there's something weird and tiresome about English education and attitudes towards it here plus a bit about why makes me feel that way. Just answer in a simple way- do you or do you not also feel the same?

Yes and no. *ducks*

I'm sorry, I just can't think in such terms about such a complicated topic. Simply because there are so many different motivations out there for English and I can't pigeonhole an entire nation of people into a "yes" or "no" answer on this. I just don't think it would be an accurate assessment of the situation.

I would certainly agree that in some cases, and not unusually, there is definite strangeness. But then one could say that about education in general here. And of course how much of that is actually strange vs. simply my own bias? But leaving the bias issue aside, yeah some Koreans have an unhealthy obsession with English. Others have an unhealthy rejection of English. Some people are just going through the motions for graduating and getting paid- it's just another thing you do, like literature class or Spanish or gym or the 1 mandatory art class you had to take or whatever. Everyone has that one area of education that they just aren't enthusiastic about but still have to do.

Everytime I think of some Korean being weird, I think also of some Korean being normal about English. And everytime I think of some Korean being normal, I think of one being weird. Is that weird? Or is that normal? I mean, I could be the weird one!

Geez, I'm starting to sound like a philosopher/wishy-washy academic....