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  • Waygook Lord

    • 8000

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Biden's student loan forgiveness plan
« Reply #360 on: November 24, 2022, 11:43:06 am »
What’s the average difference in lifetime earnings for college grad vs not? A million dollars? Thinking of it that way, debt is a good investment. (Overall on average that is. Doesn’t apply to everybody.)


  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 8000

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Biden's student loan forgiveness plan
« Reply #361 on: November 24, 2022, 11:51:52 am »
Recent USA Today article:

“University students were spending, on average, only about 12 to 14 hours a week studying, a decline of about 50% from a few decades earlier.”

Is that true? I’ll search more info later.


Re: Biden's student loan forgiveness plan
« Reply #362 on: November 24, 2022, 11:53:41 am »
According to OECD data, American workers in 1980 worked 28 more minutes per week than they did in 2021. Much greater declines have occurred elsewhere in the developed world, and I would suggest that that casual, unrecorded "gig economy" work accounts for at least some of the decline. Regardless, it's not a big difference.

https://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS#

The share of the labor force under 30 has declined since then, while increasing at the opposite end of the age spectrum. The reasons for that are complicated. Does the increased number of older people working reflect economic instability, an insufficient social security system, changes to labor laws, increased availability of suitable or a simply a strong work ethic? Can L I pinpoint the exact cause? Probably not. So it's equally unlikely that he can summarize the inverse phenomenon in a Twitter-sized soundbite.

People between 15 and 29 constitute about 22% of the US workforce, and 43% of the population. Given how many people in this group are in full-time education (including mandatory high school), this doesn't signify any significant unwillingness to work. Furthermore labor force participation for that age group is considerably higher than it is in many other developed countries, including those renowned for having strong work ethics, like Korea and Japan.

Who let the dogs out?

- Mitt Romney


  • Kyndo
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Re: Biden's student loan forgiveness plan
« Reply #363 on: November 24, 2022, 12:04:01 pm »
I think that's generally true.
The average difference is around 780k over a lifetime, depending on gender (900 for men,  630 for women).
https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/research-summaries/education-earnings.html


But debt can also be a trap. It can be hard to move forward in life when all your gains are being poured into a sinkhole.
I can't find any data to prove it, but I imagine that there's probably a negative correlation between amount of student debt and disposible income among graduates. I also imagine that this correlation becomes weaker over time (ie for somebodu who graduates 10 years ago, 15, 20, etc), but in the mean time, it would drastically reduce an individual's ability to succeed economically when compared to their peers without student debt.


But the issue isn't that student debt is a good investment or not (I would agree that in the majority of cases it is), but rather that it is a greater burden now than in the past. If current trends continue, the day might come when it no longer is a good investment.

Recent USA Today article:
“University students were spending, on average, only about 12 to 14 hours a week studying, a decline of about 50% from a few decades earlier.”
Is that true? I’ll search more info later.
From what I read, it seems true, yep. But... a few decades ago (2000s), they studied and worked a heck of a lot more than than students did previously (ie, in the 1970s). Did you look at the graphs in the article I posted? I thought it explained the phenomenon nicely.  :smiley:
« Last Edit: November 24, 2022, 12:10:22 pm by Kyndo »


  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 8000

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Biden's student loan forgiveness plan
« Reply #364 on: November 24, 2022, 02:36:04 pm »
At the median, graduates with a bachelor’s degree earn $2.8 million over the course of their careers, according to the Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce, compared to $1.6 million for high school graduates.

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/student-loans/average-salary-college-graduates/


  • gogators!
  • Waygook Lord

    • 6367

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Biden's student loan forgiveness plan
« Reply #365 on: November 24, 2022, 11:55:56 pm »
The first article had a headline that didn’t match the  content within all that well. Had some stats improved metrics. Some headlines are overly alarmist to get clicks in a competitive market with declining revenue because of newspaper declining sales… or maybe just coincidence. Korean newspapers especially often contain bad journalism.

The second had graphs that showed things are getting worse. But they are getting worse because people are choosing to work less. That will increase debt for them.

Most mainstream media leans left. Some are less left leaning than others. Centrist organizations- which can go both ways depending on who’s writing- are often accused by leftists as being right wing or conservative. Even Wikipedia is left of center I recently heard. And there was some compelling evidence for that.

Young people earning less and having more debt is a result of them working less. If they worked more, which they don’t want to do, they’d have as much money as the previous generation they’re being compared to. And not be in debt to the extent they are.
I see Elon Mush has been monkeying with your algorithms.

You know what you get these days if you work your fingers to the bone?


  • Kyndo
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Re: Biden's student loan forgiveness plan
« Reply #366 on: November 25, 2022, 07:25:34 am »
At the median, graduates with a bachelor’s degree earn $2.8 million over the course of their careers, according to the Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce, compared to $1.6 million for high school graduates.
https://www.forbes.com/advisor/student-loans/average-salary-college-graduates/

Interesting. 2 reliable sources giving very different answers.
I wonder where the differences originate: doesn't seem likely that the 7 years between articles would account for the 300K difference.


  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 8000

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Biden's student loan forgiveness plan
« Reply #367 on: November 25, 2022, 08:21:58 am »
Well, maybe. Wages for uni grads are going up. Wages for everyone are going up overall. And it’s actually 435k. (900k plus 630k divided by two, subtracted from 1.2 mil.) Incidentally, the reason women on average earn less than men over the course of their lifetime is fewer hours worked. They take time off to be a stay at mom to raise the kid(s). Also, more likely to have majored in something with lower earnings potential. Art history or something like that. The highest paying fields - STEM - are mostly men.


  • Kyndo
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Re: Biden's student loan forgiveness plan
« Reply #368 on: November 25, 2022, 08:24:45 am »
It’s actually 435k.

(900k plus 630k divided by two, subtracted from 1.2 mil.)

Incidentally, the reason women on average earn less than men over the course of their lifetime is fewer hours worked. They take time off to be a stay at mom to raise the kid(s). Also, more likely to have majored in something with lower earnings potential.
I admit I was looking at only single gender values. Your number would be more accurate, yep.

There are a lot of reasons why men earn more than women, and hours worked is certainly one of them!

On the other hand, women make far less because they're paid less per hour as well.
When adjusted for number of hours worked, women in the USA still earn only about 80% of what men earn.
https://www.epi.org/publication/what-is-the-gender-pay-gap-and-is-it-real/

Not surprisingly, women also hold the majority (58%) of student debt as well, probably as a result of wage disparity.  :sad:
https://educationdata.org/student-loan-debt-by-gender#:~:text=Women%20hold%2058%25%20of%20all,to%20pay%20off%20student%20loans.



  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 8000

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Biden's student loan forgiveness plan
« Reply #369 on: November 25, 2022, 08:35:19 am »
Women have surpassed men in time spent in uni classrooms; they are more likely than men to go to uni, thus have more debt.


  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 8000

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Biden's student loan forgiveness plan
« Reply #370 on: November 25, 2022, 08:36:23 am »
The share of the labor force under 30 has declined since then, while increasing at the opposite end of the age spectrum.

Looks like old folks re-entering the workforce/delaying their retirement to support their non-working kids: hikikomori, doing another expensive stint in rehab, or maybe in grad school… majoring in gender studies… or could be majoring in engineering. Many possibilities.


  • 745sticky
  • The Legend

    • 2363

    • March 26, 2020, 01:52:57 pm
    • Korea
Re: Biden's student loan forgiveness plan
« Reply #371 on: November 25, 2022, 08:38:47 am »
On the other hand, women make far less because they're paid less per hour as well.
When adjusted for number of hours worked, women in the USA still earn only about 80% of what men earn.

on average, yes. anyways, as long as the disparity isn't due to discrimination, i don't see the issue.


  • Kyndo
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Re: Biden's student loan forgiveness plan
« Reply #372 on: November 25, 2022, 08:40:02 am »
Women have surpassed men in time spent in uni classrooms; they are more likely than men to go to uni, thus have more debt.
That's true. But according to the article,  the average female student still has about 10% more debt than the average male student.

on average, yes. anyways, as long as the disparity isn't due to discrimination, i don't see the issue.
Right! I have classes now, but I'll look up what the difference is attributed to afterwards.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2022, 09:25:19 am by Kyndo »


  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 8000

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Biden's student loan forgiveness plan
« Reply #373 on: November 25, 2022, 08:43:57 am »
When adjusted for number of hours worked, women in the USA still earn only about 80% of what men earn.

Part of it is time out of the workforce, as opposed to uninterrupted continuity, means less experience and less chances for raises. Less seniority. (Seniority as in the person who has worked at the job the longest gets the managerial position.)

Also, men and women do different jobs. Men work more dangerous jobs. Stuff like cutting down trees, catching crabs, and fighting fires.


  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 8000

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Biden's student loan forgiveness plan
« Reply #374 on: November 25, 2022, 08:50:36 am »
I have classes now, but I'll look up what the difference is attributed to.

People spend student loan money on clothes and shoes. How many pairs of shoes does the average man have? How many pairs of shoes does the average woman have? (I read 19.)


  • 745sticky
  • The Legend

    • 2363

    • March 26, 2020, 01:52:57 pm
    • Korea
Re: Biden's student loan forgiveness plan
« Reply #375 on: November 25, 2022, 09:01:18 am »
People spend student loan money on clothes and shoes. How many pairs of shoes does the average man have? How many pairs of shoes does the average woman have? (I read 19.)

okay this one i'm not too sure about, lol


  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 8000

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Biden's student loan forgiveness plan
« Reply #376 on: November 25, 2022, 09:24:55 am »
Separate sources reached the same number - 19 - so I guess that’s it.

“The survey of 3,000 women, by Gocompare.com, shows that the average woman has about 19 pairs of shoes…”
http://www.glamour.com/fashion/blogs/slaves-to-fashion/2010/06/the-average-woman-spends-almos.html

“A poll of 1,057 women by the Consumer Reports National Research Center for shopping magazine ShopSmart found U.S. women on average own 19 pairs of shoes…”
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-shoes/most-women-own-19-pairs-of-shoes-some-secretly-idUSN0632859720070910


  • Mr C
  • The Legend

    • 3797

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Biden's student loan forgiveness plan
« Reply #377 on: November 25, 2022, 09:45:03 am »

Also, men and women do different jobs. Men work more dangerous jobs. Stuff like cutting down trees,


... especially in panties and a bra.


Re: Biden's student loan forgiveness plan
« Reply #378 on: November 25, 2022, 09:52:24 am »
Separate sources reached the same number - 19 - so I guess that’s it.

“The survey of 3,000 women, by Gocompare.com, shows that the average woman has about 19 pairs of shoes…”
http://www.glamour.com/fashion/blogs/slaves-to-fashion/2010/06/the-average-woman-spends-almos.html

“A poll of 1,057 women by the Consumer Reports National Research Center for shopping magazine ShopSmart found U.S. women on average own 19 pairs of shoes…”
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-shoes/most-women-own-19-pairs-of-shoes-some-secretly-idUSN0632859720070910

Earlier this year, I posted that my wife as 32 pairs of shoes and 8 pairs of boots, if my memory serves me well.  :shocked:

I have 5 pairs of shoes.  :sad:


  • D.L.Orean
  • Hero of Waygookistan

    • 1090

    • February 25, 2020, 09:34:41 am
Re: Biden's student loan forgiveness plan
« Reply #379 on: November 25, 2022, 09:58:33 am »
Earlier this year, I posted that my wife as 32 pairs of shoes and 8 pairs of boots, if my memory serves me well.  :shocked:

I have 5 pairs of shoes.  :sad:

Very irresponsible of her to use student loans to buy so many pairs of shoes and boots