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  • 745sticky
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Re: NBC Poll: Biden Approval at 'Catastrophic' Low of Presidency, 40 Percent
« Reply #160 on: April 25, 2022, 01:26:20 pm »
If one were not guilty of major wrong-doing, or even just not guilty of the particular wrong-doing that's being examined, it would probably be to one's advantage to cooperate (to a reasonable extent, and with lawyers present, of course. No point in being stupid about it.).

this is a gross misconception a lot of people have regarding the legal system. regardless of whether you are innocent or guilty, you should always utilize your full constitutional rights. the idea that there is anything to gain from cooperating with authorities (beyond the bare minimum ofc) is a complete myth.

great video on the subject (i think its been posted here before?) if youre interested.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE
« Last Edit: April 25, 2022, 01:55:49 pm by 745sticky »


Re: NBC Poll: Biden Approval at 'Catastrophic' Low of Presidency, 40 Percent
« Reply #161 on: April 25, 2022, 01:40:18 pm »
This 100%.

People who think things like "Lying=Guilty" and "No one lies" and "Just tell the truth" and "What do you have to hide? Just cooperate" need to watch this and understand how criminal justice REALLY works.

The police ARE NOT your friend in any kind of investigation. They can rescue you from a flipped-over vehicle or stop a bad guy and lots of brave stuff, but they cannot be trusted with confidence in a criminal investigation.


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Re: NBC Poll: Biden Approval at 'Catastrophic' Low of Presidency, 40 Percent
« Reply #162 on: April 25, 2022, 01:57:14 pm »
^i'd also like to note that in the context of this conversation, whatever is said about "the police" scales up and is 10x more true of whatever department is going through your records


  • Kyndo
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Re: NBC Poll: Biden Approval at 'Catastrophic' Low of Presidency, 40 Percent
« Reply #163 on: April 25, 2022, 02:03:11 pm »
This assumes that the investigating agency is apolitical and ethical.
Nothing in the FBI/various Special Counsels/Intel Community's history in the United States suggests that "apolitical" and "ethical" are terms to describe them.
No, it isn't really assuming anything. Sure, everybody in and connected to Washington has a political agenda, but stonewalling a search gives off very strong "I'm guilty AF" vibes. If you're not actually guilty as a fox in a henhouse, wouldn't things go better for you to smear on a bland smile and give the appearance of being cooperative? Gives you the moral high ground which you can then spin into making them the fascist baddies.


This isn't as simple as a birth certificate (a single identifiable item) or a tax return (an already existing filed legal document), this is basically saying "Hey, go through EVERYTHING in my office and on all of the digital devices of everyone connected to both the campaign and the current administration.
Yeah, I agree. It *is* a lot more complex. But again, stone walling everything is not the best response to an inquiry, especially if it's baseless. It predisposed others into thinking that one is guilty. It gives credence to baseless accusations in the minds of the unwashed masses.

That is a non-viable starting point. It is such a broad scope and has so many people you couldn't guarantee that some subordinate was doing something else, completely on their own, and it gets uncovered. If the Republicans demanded such things from a Democratic administration and campaign, the Dems would rightfully tell them to go eff themselves and not cooperate one bit.
And it would go equally badly for them. Because telling investigators to take a long walk off a short pier is very satisfying, but not a very good strategy for winning public opinion.

This is before we get to the fact that everyone on the Trump side knew the whole Trump-Russia thing was nonsense, and thus KNEW it was a partisan political investigation that could not be trusted, especially with them also thinking that sections of the FBI and Intel community were actively promoting this fraudulent nonsense. Under such circumstances, yes you should not cooperate at all.

If you knew that the investigating powers were AT BEST imagining you guilty of some ridiculous conspiracy and AT WORST (and most likely) deliberately attempting to topple your administration/business in cooperation with your rivals, would YOU be transparent?
If you know the accusations are baseless, you don't slam doors shut: you politely give them the nice long rope they're asking for and encourage them to make a nice shiny noose for themselves.

Finally you'd put yourself in the position of attempting to prove a negative. Even if your stuff shower "no evidence", as we can see here, people still wouldn't accept it and would continue to claim the conspiracy theory was a thing.
Balderdash. Hogwash. Blether, even!
 When somebody repeatedly ask you what you're hiding behind your back, you repeatedly show them empty hands. Then they look like idiots. If you hem and haw, deflect and object, and refuse to show your hands, people are naturally gonna think that you're hiding something.

The best play is to do what happened- counter investigation that raises serious questions into the whole genesis of the affair and revelation of questionable methods employed as well as the inherent contradictions of the claim to become more pronounced (e.g. Trump the mastermind bumbling idiot)
The best play would be to give the appearance of cooperation and then make counter investigations. Those counter investigations will have a whole heck of a lot more punch to them if one can point out that the original investigations were 100% baseless.


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Re: NBC Poll: Biden Approval at 'Catastrophic' Low of Presidency, 40 Percent
« Reply #164 on: April 25, 2022, 02:06:06 pm »
Balderdash. Hogwash. Blether, even!
 When somebody repeatedly ask you what you're hiding behind your back, you repeatedly show them empty hands. Then they look like idiots. If you hem and haw, deflect and object, and refuse to show your hands, people are naturally gonna think that you're hiding something.

i'm sure this would make a lovely line for a childrens book, but the real world (and especially the legal system) is not a nursery rhyme.


  • Kyndo
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Re: NBC Poll: Biden Approval at 'Catastrophic' Low of Presidency, 40 Percent
« Reply #165 on: April 25, 2022, 02:13:12 pm »
i'm sure this would make a lovely line for a childrens book, but the real world (and especially the legal system) is not a nursery rhyme.
Lol, thanks.
I'm not really referring to the legal system here. I'm thinking more about the media circus surrounding really high profile cases. I understand that appearances of guilt or innocent don't really matter for all that much in an investigation.

this is a gross misconception a lot of people have regarding the legal system. regardless of whether you are innocent or guilty, you should always utilize your full constitutional rights. the idea that there is anything to gain from cooperating with authorities (beyond the bare minimum ofc) is a complete myth.
great video on the subject (i think its been posted here before?) if you're interested.

I've watched it. It's a good video, but I don't feel that what they're talking about is 100% applicable here: a routine traffic stop isn't going to be covered by multiple media sources. Super high profile cases are fought not solely in a courtroom, but also in the media. One needs to consider appearances as well as the obvious legal issues.
I've been hauled off for a multi-hour question and answer session at Honolulu customs (passport issues). Super duper inconvenient, but both times I was eventually let go. Clamming up and demanding a lawyer or whatever would probably have made things a lot less pleasant. Accusations and investigations involving presidents and federal agencies are probably going to be even less like traffic stops.

   I'm not suggesting that the people involved ought to nod their heads and go along with everything, and obviously not involving lawyers and waiving rights is just dumb, but... :undecided:.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2022, 02:18:36 pm by Kyndo »


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Re: NBC Poll: Biden Approval at 'Catastrophic' Low of Presidency, 40 Percent
« Reply #166 on: April 25, 2022, 02:25:40 pm »
I don't feel that what they're talking about is 100% applicable: a routine traffic stop isn't going to be covered by multiple media sources.

i don't feel like you know what they're talking about. i don't recall any of the examples given in the video involving a routine traffic stop (could be wrong, its been a while since i watched it), and even if one does, the examples given are more than applicable in any situation. if anything, its even more true the more high profile your case is since the state will be putting even more resources into pinning something on you.

there's no reason to risk tanking your case playing the court of public opinion by sitting down with seasoned investigators.


Lol, thanks.
I'm not really referring to the legal system here. I'm thinking more about the media circus surrounding really high profile cases. I understand that appearances of guilt or innocent don't really matter for all that much in an investigation.

winning with the media circus doesn't mean shit if you get locked up anyways. i'd be willing to bet OJ wasn't worried about the media circus when he led the police on a high-speed chase then hired up the most expensive lawyers he could find.

people might know he's (allegedly) a murderer but he's walking around free and gets invited to some of the old parties, if that one dave chapelle bit is to be believed



« Last Edit: April 25, 2022, 02:29:00 pm by 745sticky »


  • Kyndo
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Re: NBC Poll: Biden Approval at 'Catastrophic' Low of Presidency, 40 Percent
« Reply #167 on: April 25, 2022, 02:43:52 pm »
i don't feel like you know what they're talking about. i don't recall any of the examples given in the video involving a routine traffic stop (could be wrong, its been a while since i watched it), and even if one does, the examples given are more than applicable in any situation. if anything, its even more true the more high profile your case is since the state will be putting even more resources into pinning something on you.
there's no reason to risk tanking your case playing the court of public opinion by sitting down with seasoned investigators.
winning with the media circus doesn't mean shit if you get locked up anyways. i'd be willing to bet OJ wasn't worried about the media circus when he led the police on a high-speed chase then hired up the most expensive lawyers he could find.
people might know he's (allegedly) a murderer but he's walking around free and gets invited to some of the old parties, if that one dave chapelle bit is to be believed

I wasn't using the traffic stop example as a general day-to-day kind of example, not something specifically from the video (it's been a while since I've seen it as well)
The arguments you're making are good ones, and I honestly don't disagree with them.
Maybe it's just my frustration at the North American legal system in general that's leaking through: it's just total bs that the best defense to any accusation or investigation is to totally stymie investigations even if one is 100% innocent.  So... you might possibly be right in that there's a tiiiiiiny bit of deliberate wishful thinking involved. :sad:
   
  Also, about the particular example you used: if I recall, the lawyer OJ hired was an absolute expert in manipulating public opinion. It's probably why he's still welcome at parties.  :wink:


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Re: NBC Poll: Biden Approval at 'Catastrophic' Low of Presidency, 40 Percent
« Reply #168 on: April 25, 2022, 02:58:52 pm »
I wasn't using the traffic stop example as a general day-to-day kind of example, not something specifically from the video (it's been a while since I've seen it as well)

*was?

in any case, i feel like that particular example actually serves against your points. as you also mentioned earlier, it was a lot easier to get through customs by just cooperating rather than clamming up. similarly, in low-stakes situations like a traffic stop, it probably is better to just cooperate and be on your way - especially since there aren't many shades of grey (you can't just say "no thanks" and drive away, lol)


The arguments you're making are good ones, and I honestly don't disagree with them.
Maybe it's just my frustration at the North American legal system in general that's leaking through: it's just total bs that the best defense to any accusation or investigation is to totally stymie investigations even if one is 100% innocent.

i dont think thats something thats preventable if we want to have a robust justice system. obviously you should only stymie an investigation to the extent you can legally - but you're given those legal rights for good reason!

   
 
Also, about the particular example you used: if I recall, the lawyer OJ hired was an absolute expert in manipulating public opinion. It's probably why he's still welcome at parties.  :wink:

which one? OJ hired a lot, lol. that said, considering how easily the race narrative wrote itself in, i doubt it required any real finesse. either way, i dont think trump couldve pulled out those kinds of cards in the charges brought against him.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2022, 03:02:09 pm by 745sticky »


Re: NBC Poll: Biden Approval at 'Catastrophic' Low of Presidency, 40 Percent
« Reply #169 on: April 25, 2022, 03:46:53 pm »
No, it isn't really assuming anything. Sure, everybody in and connected to Washington has a political agenda
This wasn't just "political agenda", this was "We're going after your nuts and you are in the political fight of your life. We are going to actively use every resource, including manufacturing conspiracies against you, using the media, Federal law enforcement, and the intel community. None of whom have any moral qualms about lying or exaggerating if it gets you taken down."

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but stonewalling a search gives off very strong "I'm guilty AF" vibes.
Only to the segment of the population naive enough to believe that you should fully cooperate and just open yourself up to be probed under such circumstances.

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If you're not actually guilty as a fox in a henhouse, wouldn't things go better for you to smear on a bland smile and give the appearance of being cooperative?
This assumes 1) That EVERYONE in your organization, top to bottom, is clean in every way imaginable. As we saw, some people were busted for stuff that wasn't related to the actual investigation, which gave the appearance of being connected to it to those who didn't pay close attention. 2) This assumes ethical and impartial behavior by the other side.

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But again, stone walling everything is not the best response to an inquiry
Why? Are you suggesting stonewalling hasn't been an effective legal tactic? I can't think of many examples where those under investigation have truly been transparent with such a broad, open-ended investigation where the authorities were truly out to get them. Usually in such cases there are those within the organization who want any wrongdoing to be found because they suspect unlawful elements operating within.

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And it would go equally badly for them.
It's going bad for the people fighting and dragging their heels on the Durham Probe in doing the same thing? It went bad for Clinton with Whitewater and Lewinsky? Reagan and Iran Contra?

Seems it actually works really well and the political damage is manageable.

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If you know the accusations are baseless, you don't slam doors shut: you politely give them the nice long rope they're asking for and encourage them to make a nice shiny noose for themselves.
I don't think there's a defense attorney alive who would recommend their clients do such a thing unless they had a really manageable strategy and clear evidence they could rely on. There's no piece of exculpatory evidence out there they can pull up and be like "This proves there was no collusion."

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When somebody repeatedly ask you what you're hiding behind your back, you repeatedly show them empty hands. Then they look like idiots. If you hem and haw, deflect and object, and refuse to show your hands, people are naturally gonna think that you're hiding something.
Again, you're assuming showing them empty hands will prove it and they'll drop it. You can't in this case. They're trying to force you to prove a negative, which you can't do in this case.

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Those counter investigations will have a whole heck of a lot more punch to them if one can point out that the original investigations were 100% baseless.
How do you prove they're baseless? People out there still think that there was collusion despite a thorough investigation not showing sufficient evidence of collusion.


  • Kyndo
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Re: NBC Poll: Biden Approval at 'Catastrophic' Low of Presidency, 40 Percent
« Reply #170 on: April 26, 2022, 07:54:58 am »
*was?
yep. Typo. I've been making a lot of these lately, and now Boo thinks I'm a condescending t***t because of it.  :cry:

i dont think thats something thats preventable if we want to have a robust justice system. obviously you should only stymie an investigation to the extent you can legally - but you're given those legal rights for good reason!

I'll concede the point, but it's upsetting that the best defense towards an investigation is to hinder the investigation in every possible way, even when one is 100% innocent. Clearly, there something wrong with the system when this is the case.
 
which one? OJ hired a lot, lol.
Alan Dershowitz, maybe, although his wiki picture doesn't match the image I had of him (at all). I think it's possible that I conflated him with Don King, somehow (  :huh:! ). Might be that there was a scandal involving him at around the same time or something: I was young, current event sorta blurred together at that time.

...
How do you prove they're baseless?
...
You don't of course. They fail to prove that its not baseless.
You're looking at things very much from the legal perspective. I readily admit that honesty and open-handedness is gonna get you in trouble pretty quick, the modern legal system being what it is.
 If I could re-post my original reply to your comment, I think I would've restricted my criticism on their legal defense tactics strictly on the basis of how it is perceived in the court of public opinion.
Stonewalling, stymieing, and litigating an investigation at every turn, while a good defense strategy, certainly gives the appearance of guilt. I suspect that this appearance is one of the reasons that the media ran with the story for so long. As politics is dictated very much by popular opinion, this appearance, whether or not it's based on fact, is damaging. I'm surprised that there wasn't more efforts being made at maintaining the *appearance* of cooperation.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2022, 07:59:06 am by Kyndo »


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Re: NBC Poll: Biden Approval at 'Catastrophic' Low of Presidency, 40 Percent
« Reply #171 on: April 26, 2022, 08:16:05 am »
I'll concede the point, but it's upsetting that the best defense towards an investigation is to hinder the investigation in every possible way, even when one is 100% innocent. Clearly, there something wrong with the system when this is the case.

what's wrong with the system is that it's human and susceptible to human error, unfortunately. especially in bigger investigations you have to hedge against that.

there probably is a way to have a less bureaucratic and more transparent system, unfortunately i dont think its possible on a super large scale

Stonewalling, stymieing, and litigating an investigation at every turn, while a good defense strategy, certainly gives the appearance of guilt. I suspect that this appearance is one of the reasons that the media ran with the story for so long. As politics is dictated very much by popular opinion, this appearance, whether or not it's based on fact, is damaging. I'm surprised that there wasn't more efforts being made at maintaining the *appearance* of cooperation.

trumps public image had already tanked well before that point - why bother? regardless of the outcome he had his base solidly in his pocket and his critics would stay critics.


Re: NBC Poll: Biden Approval at 'Catastrophic' Low of Presidency, 40 Percent
« Reply #172 on: April 26, 2022, 12:38:34 pm »
I'll concede the point, but it's upsetting that the best defense towards an investigation is to hinder the investigation in every possible way, even when one is 100% innocent. Clearly, there something wrong with the system when this is the case.
Well, it's what happened with the claims of voter fraud- stonewalling and lack of transparency, so what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Works both ways. Trump and the GOP are screwed there. I agree that it isn't good, but I understand why the powers that be are doing what they're doing. Same with this.

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Stonewalling, stymieing, and litigating an investigation at every turn, while a good defense strategy, certainly gives the appearance of guilt. I suspect that this appearance is one of the reasons that the media ran with the story for so long. As politics is dictated very much by popular opinion, this appearance, whether or not it's based on fact, is damaging. I'm surprised that there wasn't more efforts being made at maintaining the *appearance* of cooperation.
This assumes that public opinion was generally malleable. In the case of Trump, I don't think it was. Why?

"The Fine People Hoax." There are literally transcripts from MSM sources that show that Trump DID NOT call Nazis fine people and in fact, explicitly condemned them. You can show people that transcript and one of two things will happen- 1) They'll either shift the goalposts or 2) They'll agree and then two days later just repeat it again. You can correct them again, and then two days later they'll just repeat it, ESPECIALLY if there are other Trump-haters around. Same with the "Drinking Bleach Hoax."  Likewise with Trump-Russia stuff. You can show people a clip of Hillary Clinton collapsing and being tossed into the back of a van like a sack of potatoes, at Ground Zero, ON THE ANNIVERSARY OF 9/11, which was seen by hundreds of millions, and they will say that didn't sway the election, no it was facebook ads that got 120 likes and 35 shares.  And this is like 80% of the Democrat base (not that Republicans are any better with their nuttery). Such people are clearly incapable due to mental condition (I used to consider it a defect, but it might be a survival code for our species of being able to look at stuff like that and adjust their opinion and admitting to being in error. If that is the case, then it is clear that "being transparent and open" WILL NOT work to change public opinion to any significant degree.

The fact is that a lot of people are so invested in certain beliefs about Trump that no matter what evidence you present (or assumed "evidence" is later shown to not be credible), it won't affect them. They'll stick with this belief. THAT is some Flat Earth stuff right there- Being able to look at a transcript, read it, and then completely disagree with it and claim it doesn't say what it actually does because you're so invested in believing that and don't want to suffer the embarrassment of admitting you're wrong.

==================================================================================================================================================

I do think that some reform is possible, if only because people are starting to become aware of certain things, like how utterly unreliable human memory is and eyewitness testimony abut traumatic events are, to the point where it only serves as an initial guide, not as firm evidence. It also helps that people are starting to become aware of media manipulation techniques, at least in terms of those they oppose, which is part of the battle. The next step will be when large numbers of people can begin to identify with those they agree with. One good thing about cancel culture and the younger generation is they don't have that same kind of vested loyalty to institutions and figures. They'll turn on them in a heartbeat. And so there might be room for cautious optimism in public opinion. Genetics likely means we can never overcome this, but we might be able to mitigate it.

As for the legal system. that's a lot worse. As 745Sticky says, a lot of it is due to human nature. As long as people think "humans are basically good", the legal system will be abused. Only when we realize that humans are not fundamentally good, will we be able to reform the system because we'll understand that people in power or enforcement positions cannot be trusted. If an innocent person cannot trust investigators, the media and the government to behave ethically in an investigation, then trust in those institutions and the people in them needs to be removed
« Last Edit: April 26, 2022, 12:50:17 pm by Mr.DeMartino »


  • Kyndo
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Re: NBC Poll: Biden Approval at 'Catastrophic' Low of Presidency, 40 Percent
« Reply #173 on: April 26, 2022, 01:53:19 pm »
I agree.
I feel that transparency, and a system of government built around maximizing it would go a long way towards compensating for inherent human stupidity/selfishness/corruption. Building a government where trust isn't *necessary* should be the goal. Why trust when one can verify?
I also feel that those in power have a very strongly vested interest in ensuring that this will never happen, so I doubt that significant reforms are going to happen any time soon without some kind of catalyzing catastrophe.  :sad: