Dream Apartment

There's more expensives one for sure, point being not that it is expensive but that it isn't intrinsically worth that. Hence my claim about there being bezzle.

That's what some people said about 50.000 dollar apartments back in the 90's.

I was going to say the exterior is nice, then I saw all the pics. Seems
like you don't get a lot for £240,000. (KRW388,319,530) This looks way
overpriced for the UK. Especially for a shitty place like Wales. :) If you
tried to do any renovation work and made any noise, your neighbor
would probably come over and smash a Newcastle Brown bottle across
your face.

That's why I posted a home pic from my home province for a cheaper or similar price cdn dollars compared to pounds.  Seems to much pounds to pay for a dumpy looking place. 

That's what some people said about 50.000 dollar apartments back in the 90's.

Prices rise yes etc etc "everything is worth what the purchaser will pay for it" and other glib justifications x100, but I it seems like I should rephrase what I am saying.  Property prices are way out of wack with what can be supported in a way that any normal person could view as desirable (assuming this to be that mass home-ownership without potentially ruinous levels of debt building up in the economy as a whole is desirable).

Any number of individuals can be as smug as they like about how they were lucky enough to buy at the right time and now the value exploded, but there's no way anyone can look at the property market as it is now and think "hmm yes, this looks sustainable in the long term". I find it hard to believe that 40 years hence that people dragged through a shit and precarious economy their entire adult lives are going to think that $1m one bedroom apartments in shitehole wherever on a 60 year mortgage is worth it or even advisable.  Maybe somehow people who already have assets can keep spinning it out so that prices forever inflate by trading properties to each other but they will rip their society apart in the process. The situation is a pressing one and it's f-cking embarrassing the lack of seriousness with which it is being addressed.

Prices rise yes etc etc "everything is worth what the purchaser will pay for it" and other glib justifications x100, but I it seems like I should rephrase what I am saying.  Property prices are way out of wack with what can be supported in a way that any normal person could view as desirable (assuming this to be that mass home-ownership without potentially ruinous levels of debt building up in the economy as a whole is desirable).

Any number of individuals can be as smug as they like about how they were lucky enough to buy at the right time and now the value exploded, but there's no way anyone can look at the property market as it is now and think "hmm yes, this looks sustainable in the long term". I find it hard to believe that 40 years hence that people dragged through a shit and precarious economy their entire adult lives are going to think that $1m one bedroom apartments in shitehole wherever on a 60 year mortgage is worth it or even advisable.  Maybe somehow people who already have assets can keep spinning it out so that prices forever inflate by trading properties to each other but they will rip their society apart in the process. The situation is a pressing one and it's f-cking embarrassing the lack of seriousness with which it is being addressed.

Things continue until they don't.

But what will it take to stop Koreans from thinking that the best way to invest their money is in new apartments? This is how they have been building wealth for quite some time. Does pricing people out make them more or less desirable?

Prices rise yes etc etc "everything is worth what the purchaser will pay for it" and other glib justifications x100, but I it seems like I should rephrase what I am saying.  Property prices are way out of wack with what can be supported in a way that any normal person could view as desirable (assuming this to be that mass home-ownership without potentially ruinous levels of debt building up in the economy as a whole is desirable).

Any number of individuals can be as smug as they like about how they were lucky enough to buy at the right time and now the value exploded, but there's no way anyone can look at the property market as it is now and think "hmm yes, this looks sustainable in the long term". I find it hard to believe that 40 years hence that people dragged through a shit and precarious economy their entire adult lives are going to think that $1m one bedroom apartments in shitehole wherever on a 60 year mortgage is worth it or even advisable.  Maybe somehow people who already have assets can keep spinning it out so that prices forever inflate by trading properties to each other but they will rip their society apart in the process. The situation is a pressing one and it's f-cking embarrassing the lack of seriousness with which it is being addressed.

Overpriced? One could say that.
But still less so than the stock market or the crypto market. The latter representing absolutely zero real value while being traded for 10s of thousands of dollars a pop.
Yes, the real estate prices have been growing at a faster rate than incomes. Not just here but most everywhere. At the same time, rents are through the roof as well. But that doesn't stop people from renting. You don't hear aparments being empty by the thousands and landlords having no choice but to lower the rent. Not in urban areas anyways.
As long as there is enough demand to keep the purchase prices sustained, and there is enough demand for rentals at a certain price point, I don't see how prices would significantly come down. It's likely though that the rate the prices increased during the past decade, would slow down. That increase itself is not sustainable.

Not just here but most everywhere.

This. Try and buy a house in San Francisco, Sydney or London and you'd
better have a BIG wad of cash.  Apartment prices have slowed down and
actually dropped. Apparently Seoul prices fell 0.03% in 2021.  Haha, but
compare that to the 30% year-on-year gains of the last five years. Owners
simply won't sell for a loss. Buyers have to suck it up.

https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/2021/12/24/business/economy/apartment-realestate-seoul/20211224170057851.html#:~:text=Overall%2C%20apartment%20prices%20in%20Seoul,in%20southern%20Seoul%2C%20remained%20unchanged.

Things continue until they don't.

But what will it take to stop Koreans from thinking that the best way to invest their money is in new apartments? This is how they have been building wealth for quite some time. Does pricing people out make them more or less desirable?

Presumably it will continue until the bubble bursts or people with money buy up every last bit of property while the rest pay rent. A rentier economy makes housing more desirable because that's how you can make money.  The problem is that what is individually desirable, buy a property and sip a cocktail while you collect rents and the property balloons in value, is not desirable at a broader level. It sucks money out of the broader economy as people pay over the odds, compared to much more sluggish wage growth, in overblown rents or mortgages (if they can get one). In normal times more houses would be built to get things back on an even keel, either by the private sector or by the state. That it isn't happening suggests a tacit admission that the economy is indeed now a rentier economy dependent on inflated asset prices such that deflating it would risk sinking the entire economy, or it's an insane dereliction of duty/ amazing incompetence by our erstwhile leaders.

It's also telling that, while I appreciate the serious replies from a few of you considering I'm not a serious poster on this board, that nobody seems to be willing to come out and blatantly agree that things are f-ed as they stand right now. The replies all seem a bit mealy-mouthed in that regard.

Overpriced? One could say that.
But still less so than the stock market or the crypto market. The latter representing absolutely zero real value while being traded for 10s of thousands of dollars a pop.
Yes, the real estate prices have been growing at a faster rate than incomes. Not just here but most everywhere. At the same time, rents are through the roof as well. But that doesn't stop people from renting. You don't hear aparments being empty by the thousands and landlords having no choice but to lower the rent. Not in urban areas anyways.
As long as there is enough demand to keep the purchase prices sustained, and there is enough demand for rentals at a certain price point, I don't see how prices would significantly come down. It's likely though that the rate the prices increased during the past decade, would slow down. That increase itself is not sustainable.

I agree that stock and crypto are also overpriced. You kind of stumble through the central point without acknowledging it that demand for housing is inelastic because people generally don't live outside. This is what makes it something of a special situation in being a non-negotiable thing in life, alongside things like health and education. Typically in developed societies such things are seen as being an exception to market logic on account of being too important to be left to such vagaries, yet housing is being left to get out of control and distort the economy with perverse outcomes. I will re-state my central claim that the housing market as it stands, while good for those who got property at a fortuitous time and saw it shoot up in value, is having a hugely distorting and perverse effect on society as a whole. I mean this in terms of mass home-ownership without huge amounts of debt building up in the economy being a desirable state of affairs .. i.e. a proprty-owning democracy. There's just no way that you can look at the property market as it stands and say that things are ok in that regard. It's a classic case of of things being beneficial on an individual level (assuming one has property) but being ruinous on a social level.

It's also telling that, while I appreciate the serious replies from a few of you considering I'm not a serious poster on this board, that nobody seems to be willing to come out and blatantly agree that things are f-ed as they stand right now. The replies all seem a bit mealy-mouthed in that regard.

Yeah, whatever buddy. Things aren't "f-ed" if you own a house! Haha

I agree that stock and crypto are also overpriced. You kind of stumble through the central point without acknowledging it that demand for housing is inelastic because people generally don't live outside. This is what makes it something of a special situation in being a non-negotiable thing in life, alongside things like health and education. Typically in developed societies such things are seen as being an exception to market logic on account of being too important to be left to such vagaries, yet housing is being left to get out of control and distort the economy with perverse outcomes. I will re-state my central claim that the housing market as it stands, while good for those who got property at a fortuitous time and saw it shoot up in value, is having a hugely distorting and perverse effect on society as a whole. I mean this in terms of mass home-ownership without huge amounts of debt building up in the economy being a desirable state of affairs .. i.e. a proprty-owning democracy. There's just no way that you can look at the property market as it stands and say that things are ok in that regard. It's a classic case of of things being beneficial on an individual level (assuming one has property) but being ruinous on a social level.

I get your point. However, us individuals can't really solve this. If someone has the means to buy a property or a second or third, they will not care much about the moral side of it and how it affects society. If they don't buy it, someone else will and the result will be the same for the rest, only that individual will take a step backwards financially.

Most developed countries have some social programs to help those with limited financial means to affordable rentals or owning a property.

It isn't perfect, but what is?

Equal chances at birth? Getting an education? Access to quality healthcare? Owning property? The reality is far from these utopian ideas.
Inequality is almost as old as humanity. And it will stay with us.

Presumably it will continue until the bubble bursts or people with money buy up every last bit of property while the rest pay rent. A rentier economy makes housing more desirable because that's how you can make money.  The problem is that what is individually desirable, buy a property and sip a cocktail while you collect rents and the property balloons in value, is not desirable at a broader level. It sucks money out of the broader economy as people pay over the odds, compared to much more sluggish wage growth, in overblown rents or mortgages (if they can get one). In normal times more houses would be built to get things back on an even keel, either by the private sector or by the state. That it isn't happening suggests a tacit admission that the economy is indeed now a rentier economy dependent on inflated asset prices such that deflating it would risk sinking the entire economy, or it's an insane dereliction of duty/ amazing incompetence by our erstwhile leaders.

It's also telling that, while I appreciate the serious replies from a few of you considering I'm not a serious poster on this board, that nobody seems to be willing to come out and blatantly agree that things are f-ed as they stand right now. The replies all seem a bit mealy-mouthed in that regard.

73% of married couples in Korea own their apartments. Gyeonggi province had the largest number of housing construction permits in South Korea in 2020, with more than 165 thousand housing units. That year, there were approximately 457.5 thousand housing construction permits in total in South Korea.

"However, the political discourse around the housing market skirts around the phenomenon’s underlying cause: economic insecurity. Koreans pour a greater share of their household assets into real estate (75 percent) than their international peers because they see them as a safe investment vehicle for retirement. This behavior is driven by the fact that around 40 percent of citizens over the age of 65 live in relative poverty, earning less than half of the median household income.

Meanwhile, families compete to live in Seoul because parents believe that their children’s placement in better-known school districts will serve as a hedge against the ongoing erosion of secure jobs. The proportion of unemployed or underemployed Koreans between the ages of 15 and 29 stood at 27.2 percent in January 2021, a record high.

Taming the housing market through new financial regulations or concessions, therefore, will not reach the root of this anxiety-driven market behavior. A more productive policy response lies in dismantling the structures that perpetuate occupational insecurity."
https://thediplomat.com/2021/08/the-real-cause-of-seouls-real-estate-bubble-economic-anxiety/

Good ideas, but entrenched ideas are hard to shake.

As someone posted above, housing is expensive everywhere. Timing can also be a big factor. I bought my house pre-pandemic and so it was almost $200,000 less than the house sold across the street five months ago. But a guy down the street bought his house for more than $100k less than mine in 2008.

Old rule!
avoid all eggs in one basket!

It's also telling that, while I appreciate the serious replies from a few of you considering I'm not a serious poster on this board, that nobody seems to be willing to come out and blatantly agree that things are f-ed as they stand right now. The replies all seem a bit mealy-mouthed in that regard.

because its a useless virtue signal. nobody actually likes paying rent (even when its fair, lol). if you want a strong endorsement of the obvious, feel free to post that on twitter. or if you want somebody to argue it try the r/landlords subreddit.

I prefer r/loveforlandlords personally

I prefer r/loveforlandlords personally

yeah thats the one that i meant lmao forgot the exact name

Whoa, this guy just seriously sweetened this deal.



https://seoul.craigslist.org/ele/d/power-consent/7459292507.html

Whoa, this guy just seriously sweetened this deal.



https://seoul.craigslist.org/ele/d/power-consent/7459292507.html

Holy crap Batman! That looks all kinds of dangerous.

I remember when I built my house here I did it to Canadian building code standards. I walked around with my toolbelt on, a measuring tape and a carpenter's pencil marking where I wanted all the plugs and switches to go.

An electrical outlet every 8 feet and on every wall over 4 feet. The guy thought I was crazy. Me and the Mrs. moved in on our wedding day over 14 years ago and we still have plugs we've never used and not an extension cord in sight.

Any dream apateu worth it's wait in sogeum has a fridge full of beer and this

Holy crap Batman! That looks all kinds of dangerous.

I remember when I built my house here I did it to Canadian building code standards. I walked around with my toolbelt on, a measuring tape and a carpenter's pencil marking where I wanted all the plugs and switches to go.

An electrical outlet every 8 feet and on every wall over 4 feet. The guy thought I was crazy. Me and the Mrs. moved in on our wedding day over 14 years ago and we still have plugs we've never used and not an extension cord in sight.

Our apartment isn't so bad. We have on average two outlets per room. One
in the living room is, for some reason, 150cm off the floor. But we still need
"consents". One classroom has: an aircon, computer, printer, router, fan,
wi-Fi, TV, internet cable receiver, CD player and a lamp. But that is what
these power bars are for. If the circuit overloads the thing shuts down.

True but wouldn't it be better to not need them at all? A typical room in a typical apartment should have at least 1 outlet per wall.

That picture is plain nuts haha