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  • Adel
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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    • January 30, 2015, 12:50:26 am
    • The Abyss
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Re: Wow! What a beat down in Virginia.
« Reply #180 on: January 13, 2022, 01:57:16 pm »
Perhaps you should do us all a favour and refrain from this ongoing debate you appear to be having with yourself then.


  • D.L.Orean
  • Expert Waygook

    • 720

    • February 25, 2020, 09:34:41 am
Re: Wow! What a beat down in Virginia.
« Reply #181 on: January 13, 2022, 01:58:22 pm »
“Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”
"in real life I have a Mensa level IQ. That’s the opposite of mentally retarded. People have told me I’m the smartest person they’ve ever met. Has anyone said that to you? Probably not."


  • Mr C
  • The Legend

    • 3117

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Wow! What a beat down in Virginia.
« Reply #182 on: January 13, 2022, 02:04:07 pm »
1st: multiple posters claimed CRT was not being taught in public schools.

But it is.

Do they slink away in shame?

No. It appears they have no shame.

Even when they lose they think they’ve won… because in their mind they did some great zingers. In actuality, the zingers sucked.

Responding is a waste of time… but for some reason I do it… sometimes…

There is a difference between teaching CRT and books by POC about the experience of being black, brown or whatever.  And it is a distinction that is simply not being made in a whole lot of cases.

And isn't it ironic that many of the same people complaining about books in libraries largely catering to "black interests" are the people complaining about "cancel culture".


Re: Wow! What a beat down in Virginia.
« Reply #183 on: January 13, 2022, 02:14:31 pm »
There is a difference between teaching CRT and books by POC about the experience of being black, brown or whatever.  And it is a distinction that is simply not being made in a whole lot of cases.

And isn't it ironic that many of the same people complaining about books in libraries largely catering to "black interests" are the people complaining about "cancel culture".
Agreed. There's a difference between a curriculum revolving around "People's History" (which should still have significant parts included, IMO) and the 1619 Project (which should also have some elements discussed) and reading Richard Wright and WEB DuBois and Maya Angelou. Unfortunately some people seem to get triggered at any black figure not MLK or Booker T. Washington or George Washington Carver and declare it "CRT" while seeing no problem with Lost Cause stuff being taught wholesale.

I have no problem with leftist views being taught if it's also done within the context of what some people believe and there's inclusion of right-wing ideas as well and mainstream stuff as the base. Students should read the ideas of black radicals. And they should read stuff like George Fitzhugh.

Also, it's weird how people who object to some of this stuff also are fine with Aquinas or Hobbes or "radical at the time" figures like John Locke. Of course they should be taught, but they're reflective of the times and evolution of thought, just like Marcus Garvey.

I do think one of the major figures in American history who is chronically undertaught for how significant he was is John Brown. Like, his is a critical story and really asks tough questions as far as violence and rebellion and devotion to a cause.

In summation, I disagree whole-heartedly with CRT and many of its tenants and I think it presented solely as the "correct view" is awful BUT it 100% should be presented along with other ideas in classrooms and when presented, given an earnest explanation of its views and treated with the same attention as other frameworks. Legislators should not be reflexively banning it, especially if they just dig up a few works used amongst dozens and cite that as reason to ban it and declare it being "taught". I also do think it's disingenuous to say it isn't being taught at all. It just seems like the two sides on this are either "It isn't being taught, but you're racist if you're against it being taught." and "Burn CRT books and ban it, and also I don't want to be reading any books written by uppity black people complaining about life while denigrating the good name of Jefferson Davis, who humbly fought for State's Rights."
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 02:21:45 pm by Mr.DeMartino »


Re: Wow! What a beat down in Virginia.
« Reply #184 on: January 13, 2022, 02:41:47 pm »
If you really want to see where things have gotten awkward, look at the Civil War community. It really is tough these days. On the one hand, you still have Lost Cause proponents and they should be challenged. On the other hand you also have figures who while, in some sense the look at the Confederacy with rose-tinted glasses in some respects, also despise other aspects of it and have embraced Northern figures such as Lincoln and Grant in particular. Then you have the radical crowd that thinks Lincoln and Grant didn't go far enough and all the Confederates should have been hanged. But you also have people who staunchly reject Lost Cause stuff, despise the Southern apologism but also share a love of the whole story and agree with the "We had to move forward together" aspect of things.  One thing I notice is that as bad as the arguments get, one thing the whole buff-reenactor community seems to agree on is that while they may get in heated arguments with each other over the politics of the war, they really appreciate the love each has for the history of things and their attention to detail.

As noted Civil War Youtuber Atun-Shei described, he is a staunch supporter of the Northern cause, has gotten rid of any Confederate memorabilia he had, despises the Lost Cause and mocks them mercilessly on his videos (His "Checkmate Lincolnites!" series is great at humorously, yet informatively debunking Southern apologia), but he still did the Pickett's Charge walk as a Confederate out of his love of history and appreciation for the common soldier, even found himself getting caught up in the moment, and at the end of his walk up to the Angle met a tearful Union reenactor who all he could say was "I'm just so glad you're here" because it was such an awful event.

Or Shelby Foote, whose legacy has veered wildly. From being the courtly presenter on the Ken Burns show, to many people accusing him of Lost Cause ideology and also pointing out his frankly disgusting comments on race, but also that some of that went over the top and failed to note his rejection of the Lost Cause, his overall indifference towards Lee and his embracing of Grant as the best and most fascinating general of the war.

Me, I loved the Ken Burns documentary, but there are cringey parts with todays glasses and it DID focus a bit too much on battles and not enough on the black experience. The fact that Barbara Fields was the only black historian and she had far less time than Foote was a travesty. And SHE has been unfairly maligned by people on the right for being a radical and unhinged and all that. On another end of the spectrum, Henry Louis Gates has offered a nuanced take on the Black Confederate issue, a common Lost Cause apologist defense and given a tepid endorsement of the idea, viewing it as part of the complex and interesting story of the black man in America and that Black Confederates if they did served, should be acknowledged, which has upset many who think that's overstating what were in effect mostly teamsters and orderlies.

We really are in an awkward place right now and there's a lot of pressure in all directions. History and education are hard things to get right.


  • gogators!
  • Waygook Lord

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    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Wow! What a beat down in Virginia.
« Reply #185 on: January 13, 2022, 07:49:20 pm »
Then no to Davis?
Davis is a historical figure. My position is pretty clear, so I don't see any reason for your continued questions.


  • tylerthegloob
  • The Legend

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Re: Wow! What a beat down in Virginia.
« Reply #186 on: January 14, 2022, 08:20:10 am »
don't worry LI, i'll respond to you in about 3 months with a youtube link
more gg more skill


  • L I
  • Waygook Lord

    • 7175

    • October 03, 2011, 01:50:58 pm
Re: Wow! What a beat down in Virginia.
« Reply #187 on: January 14, 2022, 08:26:02 am »
Weird that you would care more about the time of the response than arriving at accurate and true information. Such are ideologues. C’est la vie.


  • T_Rex
  • Super Waygook

    • 275

    • April 23, 2019, 08:10:20 am
Re: Wow! What a beat down in Virginia.
« Reply #188 on: January 17, 2022, 10:02:35 am »
Virginia's new Republican governor isn't wasting any time.

"Virginia Gov. Glenn Youngkin signed 11 executive actions on his Inauguration Day, including ones banning critical race theory in public education, appointing an entirely new parole board, ending mandates on masks in schools and COVID-19 vaccines for state employees."
https://www.wric.com/news/politics/capitol-connection/gov-youngkin-to-sign-executive-actions-banning-critical-race-theory-ending-school-mask-mandate-and-rescinding-vaccine-mandate-for-state-employees/


Re: Wow! What a beat down in Virginia.
« Reply #189 on: January 17, 2022, 10:27:35 am »
Davis is a historical figure. My position is pretty clear, so I don't see any reason for your continued questions.
She's as much of one as Buckley or Chomsky.

Your bias is showing.


  • waygo0k
  • The Legend

    • 4595

    • September 27, 2011, 11:51:01 am
    • Chungnam
Re: Wow! What a beat down in Virginia.
« Reply #190 on: January 17, 2022, 12:33:34 pm »
Quote
A new measure aimed at eliminating critical race theory in Virginia schools proposes teaching students about key documents in American history — including a debate between President Abraham Lincoln and the abolitionist Frederick Douglass that never happened.

The bill, introduced this week by freshman Delegate Wren Williams (R), appears to confuse Frederick Douglass with Sen. Stephen Douglas (D), who battled Lincoln for a seat in the Senate in 1858.

It requires schools to provide students with an understanding of America’s founding documents, including the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Federalist Papers.

It also says that Virginia students should also be able to demonstrate knowledge of Alexis de Tocqueville’s "Democracy in America," the writings of the Founding Fathers, and “the first debate between Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass.”

The only problem is that Lincoln and Douglass never debated. Lincoln debated Sen. Stephen Douglas (D).

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/589736-virginia-bill-targeting-critical-race-theory-cites-wrong-lincoln-debate

Congratulations Virginia...you have crazies dictating the kind of idiocy your kids will be displaying a decade from now  :laugh: :laugh:


Re: Wow! What a beat down in Virginia.
« Reply #191 on: January 17, 2022, 12:42:26 pm »
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/589736-virginia-bill-targeting-critical-race-theory-cites-wrong-lincoln-debate

Congratulations Virginia...you have crazies dictating the kind of idiocy your kids will be displaying a decade from now  :laugh: :laugh:
Ehh, simply mixing up two names that were contemporaneous isn't really the core issue. Everyone knows what they meant.

If some leftist had introduced a bill that talked about the actions of James Buchanan and called him Pat Buchanan, I wouldn't give two shits because I know what they meant and it is irrelevant to the point.


  • Savant
  • The Legend

    • 2945

    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: Wow! What a beat down in Virginia.
« Reply #192 on: January 17, 2022, 12:52:05 pm »
Guest speakers from The Federalist Society incoming. Growing conservative judges from a young age.

Studies into the Constitution? So big chapters on gun ownership and some footnotes about slavery.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2022, 12:55:40 pm by Savant »


  • Mr C
  • The Legend

    • 3117

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Wow! What a beat down in Virginia.
« Reply #193 on: January 17, 2022, 02:32:04 pm »
Ehh, simply mixing up two names that were contemporaneous isn't really the core issue. Everyone knows what they meant.

If some leftist had introduced a bill that talked about the actions of James Buchanan and called him Pat Buchanan, I wouldn't give two shits because I know what they meant and it is irrelevant to the point.

Uhm the bill REQUIRES that students "demonstrate knowledge of" a historical event that never happened.  The only thing more asinine is defending this stupidity with a patently non sequitur analogy.


Re: Wow! What a beat down in Virginia.
« Reply #194 on: January 17, 2022, 04:01:41 pm »
Uhm the bill REQUIRES that students "demonstrate knowledge of" a historical event that never happened.  The only thing more asinine is defending this stupidity with a patently non sequitur analogy.
This is just being pedantic. People know what is meant. Someone made an error. That doesn't mean that including the Lincoln-Douglass debates is a bad thing. I mean, I think it's a bit overly specific and there should be more curriculum choices, but to say it's complete rubbish because someone mixed up Stephen A. Douglas and Frederick Douglass is like saying a Science curriculum is whack becomes someone mixed up Jonas Salk with Watson & Crick.


  • waygo0k
  • The Legend

    • 4595

    • September 27, 2011, 11:51:01 am
    • Chungnam
Re: Wow! What a beat down in Virginia.
« Reply #195 on: January 17, 2022, 04:04:52 pm »
A better science curriculum analogy would be someone mixing up kinetic energy and momentum…while harping about a made up idea that children aren’t being taught proper science in schools.


Re: Wow! What a beat down in Virginia.
« Reply #196 on: January 17, 2022, 05:39:48 pm »
A better science curriculum analogy would be someone mixing up kinetic energy and momentum…while harping about a made up idea that children aren’t being taught proper science in schools.
I agree that its embarrassing but its sort of like the right harping on about gun control advocates mixing up Assault Rifles or automatics. Just being pedantic.

Now as for their whole gripe...I mean maybe if some teachers are teaching an exclusively whack leftist curriculum yeah, but as I've said, freaking out over learning Maya Angelou and Richard Wright and Marcus Garvey and even some aspects of CRT is just stupid.


  • gogators!
  • Waygook Lord

    • 5442

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Wow! What a beat down in Virginia.
« Reply #197 on: January 17, 2022, 10:09:29 pm »
She's as much of one as Buckley or Chomsky.

Your bias is showing.
That's a very poor coupling. Chomsky is without a doubt a historical figure for his academic achievements. Buckley will be a footnote at best. His son will be better remembered for his novels.

Why keep on with this?


  • T_Rex
  • Super Waygook

    • 275

    • April 23, 2019, 08:10:20 am
Re: Wow! What a beat down in Virginia.
« Reply #198 on: January 18, 2022, 07:58:38 am »
"It's a theory that derives from Marxism. Karl Marx viewed the entire world as a conflict between classes.... CRT takes that same Marxist concept except it replaces class with race.... CRT is bigoted. It is a lie. It is every bit as racist as the Klansmen in white sheets."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuNaLRBBz_M
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 08:06:14 am by T_Rex »


  • Savant
  • The Legend

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    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: Wow! What a beat down in Virginia.
« Reply #199 on: January 18, 2022, 08:10:03 am »
Ted Cruz telling the adoring crowd that he knows exactly what "critical race theory" is and then goes all-in with conservative talking points about what it isn't.

Where was that Ted Cruz passion when Trump was abusing his family?

And it's absolutely hypocritical when Republicans attack the notion that laws in the United States are created not to disparage one "race"; all men are created equal under God etc etc, then Republican-controlled state legislatures do their best to kettle the majority of African-Americans into one single house district whilst also making it more difficult for them to vote. But oh yeah, it's not a "race" issue that Republicans have.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 08:16:50 am by Savant »