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  • gogators!
  • Waygook Lord

    • 6166

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
You say you want a revolution
« on: October 02, 2021, 04:21:49 am »
"A majority of people who voted for former President Donald Trump are in favor of breaking up the country, a new poll from the University of Virginia Center for Politics has found.

UVA surveyed 2,012 voters - half of whom voted for Trump, the other half for President Joe Biden - in late July in order to better understand the growing split between the Democratic and Republican Parties.

The results show a country at ideological war with itself: More than half of the surveyed Trump voters - approximately 52% - said the "situation is such that I would favor [Blue/Red] states seceding from the union to form their own separate country." Approximately 41% of Biden-voting respondents answered similarly."

A small majority but it's still pretty sobering if not a little frightening that so many (on both sides) feel that strongly.

It also underscores what many believe--that republicans will refuse to accept any election results in races they lose, just as they continue to propagate the Big Lie.


  • JNM
  • Waygook Lord

    • 5054

    • January 19, 2015, 10:16:48 am
    • Cairo, Egypt (formerly Seoul)
Re: You say you want a revolution
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2021, 05:22:25 am »
1) Saying you would do something isn’t the same as doing it.

2) People who answer surveys are not representative of the population


  • VanIslander
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 3850

    • June 02, 2011, 10:12:19 am
    • South Gyeongsang province for 13 years (with a 7-year Jeju interlude)
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Re: You say you want a revolution
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2021, 08:27:39 am »
The very act of thinking about breaking up a country is worrisome.

The health of a nation is gauged by its immediate adherents and its raison d'etre.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2021, 08:29:59 am by VanIslander »
Life's to live! Live! Breathe. Relax. Enjoy. Animals teach us to focus on family, friends and avoid danger. Get what you need and get along with others. That said, some rock the boat, but they know capsizin' it means they're sunk. Some sink, let's swim! The sea's big, great, but has undercurrents.


  • Savant
  • The Legend

    • 3483

    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: You say you want a revolution
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2021, 09:09:19 am »
Let’s break up the US! The red Republican states will do just fine as they have slaves to maintain their industry and economy…oh wait…


Re: You say you want a revolution
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2021, 09:42:16 am »
Let’s break up the US! The red Republican states will do just fine as they have slaves to maintain their industry and economy…oh wait…
It wouldn't divide neatly along state lines. It would divide along counties and even neighborhoods. Likely with the two sides fighting each other with a weak central govt in the middle.

One thing they would do is dominate the countryside very quickly and the urban base could face supply disruptions. Think Vietnam+Iraq.

Those on either side who think they'd mop up the other are like the people before the US Civil War who thought it would be a 90 days war with only 1 battle and a few hundred dead.


Re: You say you want a revolution
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2021, 09:46:35 am »
The results show a country at ideological war with itself: More than half of the surveyed Trump voters - approximately 52% - said the "situation is such that I would favor [Blue/Red] states seceding from the union to form their own separate country." Approximately 41% of Biden-voting respondents answered similarly."

It also underscores what many believe--that republicans will refuse to accept any election results in races they lose, just as they continue to propagate the Big Lie.
THAT is your takeaway? Not that the % is so high on both sides? That rather than be worried that a fairly high and somewhat close % of people on both sides are supportive of this idea, that instead this is all about the Republicans?

By that "logic" What does it say about the Dems if  41% want division after winning? If snything that ought to be more terrifying.


Re: You say you want a revolution
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2021, 09:47:12 am »
1) Saying you would do something isn’t the same as doing it.

2) People who answer surveys are not representative of the population
And this of course. 90% of respondents who said yes are full of hot air.


  • Savant
  • The Legend

    • 3483

    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: You say you want a revolution
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2021, 10:20:44 am »
It wouldn't divide neatly along state lines. It would divide along counties and even neighborhoods. Likely with the two sides fighting each other with a weak central govt in the middle.

One thing they would do is dominate the countryside very quickly and the urban base could face supply disruptions. Think Vietnam+Iraq.

Those on either side who think they'd mop up the other are like the people before the US Civil War who thought it would be a 90 days war with only 1 battle and a few hundred dead.

This isn’t 200 years ago nor the era of the Berlin air-drop. Mop up the countryside? Who gives a shit about that in the era of cargo planes and container ships.


Re: You say you want a revolution
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2021, 10:39:19 am »
This isn’t 200 years ago nor the era of the Berlin air-drop. Mop up the countryside? Who gives a shit about that in the era of cargo planes and container ships.
NIMBYism has put certain things like, I don't know, power plants, oil refineries, water treatment etc. outside of town. And yes, the disruption to the domestic food supply, given just-in-time supply chains would rapidly result in panic buying, hoarding, and rationing in the cities at the least, borderline collapse and potential food shortages quite likely. Are you one of those idiots who think food magically appears at the supermarket?

What would your plan for the newly independent liberal city-states be? Is it for them to be utterly dependent on air-drops and donations? Who exactly is going to be sending this and what logistical capacity do they have?

Vietnam was 50 years ago. Bosnia was 30. Iraq was 10. That is what you have to look at, not the Civil War which is apparently where your brain is stuck at.


  • gogators!
  • Waygook Lord

    • 6166

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: You say you want a revolution
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2021, 06:38:57 pm »
THAT is your takeaway? Not that the % is so high on both sides? That rather than be worried that a fairly high and somewhat close % of people on both sides are supportive of this idea, that instead this is all about the Republicans?

By that "logic" What does it say about the Dems if  41% want division after winning? If snything that ought to be more terrifying.
Are you OK? You sure you didn't break something jumping for a conclusion that lets you point your finger at democrats?


  • Savant
  • The Legend

    • 3483

    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: You say you want a revolution
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2021, 07:51:55 pm »
NIMBYism has put certain things like, I don't know, power plants, oil refineries, water treatment etc. outside of town. And yes, the disruption to the domestic food supply, given just-in-time supply chains would rapidly result in panic buying, hoarding, and rationing in the cities at the least, borderline collapse and potential food shortages quite likely. Are you one of those idiots who think food magically appears at the supermarket?

What would your plan for the newly independent liberal city-states be? Is it for them to be utterly dependent on air-drops and donations? Who exactly is going to be sending this and what logistical capacity do they have?

Vietnam was 50 years ago. Bosnia was 30. Iraq was 10. That is what you have to look at, not the Civil War which is apparently where your brain is stuck at.

Nope, but you're just one of those idiots, repeatedly.

Liberal city-states? No, I think the United States Government will still be functioning but with obviously less states.

Panic buying and hoarding isn't strictly a city phenomenon.

Vietnam? Bosnia? Iraq? Are you just naming countries now without any sort of explanation as to why?

Syria, Cambodia, Somalia. Do I win the "name-a-country-that-was-in-past-turmoil" bingo?


  • gogators!
  • Waygook Lord

    • 6166

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: You say you want a revolution
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2021, 01:43:38 am »
Nope, but you're just one of those idiots, repeatedly.

Liberal city-states? No, I think the United States Government will still be functioning but with obviously less states.

Panic buying and hoarding isn't strictly a city phenomenon.

Vietnam? Bosnia? Iraq? Are you just naming countries now without any sort of explanation as to why?

Syria, Cambodia, Somalia. Do I win the "name-a-country-that-was-in-past-turmoil" bingo?
NIMBYism has put certain things like, I don't know, power plants, oil refineries, water treatment etc. outside of town. And yes, the disruption to the domestic food supply, given just-in-time supply chains would rapidly result in panic buying, hoarding, and rationing in the cities at the least, borderline collapse and potential food shortages quite likely. Are you one of those idiots who think food magically appears at the supermarket?

What would your plan for the newly independent liberal city-states be? Is it for them to be utterly dependent on air-drops and donations? Who exactly is going to be sending this and what logistical capacity do they have?

Vietnam was 50 years ago. Bosnia was 30. Iraq was 10. That is what you have to look at, not the Civil War which is apparently where your brain is stuck at.
Yes, your blind devotion to farms, farmers and farming created by having grown up with, in your words, an amateur farmer. I remember you scoffing at floods and the death and damage they create because they're good for farms, although I don't think grape farmers drying their grapes into raisins are as keen about that as you are.


Re: You say you want a revolution
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2021, 10:32:32 am »
Vietnam? Bosnia? Iraq? Are you just naming countries now without any sort of explanation as to why?
I thought it would be obvious to anyone with basic knowledge of history. However, since you appear to not be one of those people, I will explain it for you-

Vietnam featured conflicts with relatively pacified urban areas vs. a countryside that was not and the difficulties in COIN operations there.
Bosnia showed the nature of sectarian conflicts that don't conform to neat geographic boundaries and what can happen as a country BALKANIZES.
Iraq showed what happens when you have conflict between various factions and ethnic groups with a weak central government in place.

If we did split up, it would quite likely look like a mix of those three and it would be very nasty and not over quickly.


Re: You say you want a revolution
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2021, 10:42:21 am »
Yes, your blind devotion to farms, farmers and farming created by having grown up with, in your words, an amateur farmer. I remember you scoffing at floods and the death and damage they create because they're good for farms, although I don't think grape farmers drying their grapes into raisins are as keen about that as you are.
Floods are part of the cycle of nature, same with the tides, forest fires, and volcanoes.

I remember you thinking they were only destructive and despite several prompts, failing to see the connection between flooding and some of the earliest civilizations known to humankind.


  • VanIslander
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • 3850

    • June 02, 2011, 10:12:19 am
    • South Gyeongsang province for 13 years (with a 7-year Jeju interlude)
    more
Re: You say you want a revolution
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2021, 10:51:03 am »
Quote
the connection between flooding and some of the earliest civilizations known to humankind.
Indeed, the regular water overflow was utilized along the Euphrates.

But, as Savant has said on this thread: we live in the era of cargo planes and container ships.
Life's to live! Live! Breathe. Relax. Enjoy. Animals teach us to focus on family, friends and avoid danger. Get what you need and get along with others. That said, some rock the boat, but they know capsizin' it means they're sunk. Some sink, let's swim! The sea's big, great, but has undercurrents.


  • Savant
  • The Legend

    • 3483

    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: You say you want a revolution
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2021, 11:47:54 am »
I thought it would be obvious to anyone with basic knowledge of history. However, since you appear to not be one of those people, I will explain it for you-

Vietnam featured conflicts with relatively pacified urban areas vs. a countryside that was not and the difficulties in COIN operations there.
Bosnia showed the nature of sectarian conflicts that don't conform to neat geographic boundaries and what can happen as a country BALKANIZES.
Iraq showed what happens when you have conflict between various factions and ethnic groups with a weak central government in place.

If we did split up, it would quite likely look like a mix of those three and it would be very nasty and not over quickly.

None of that matters to the United States from a religious perspective.

You just throw out a lot of “history” and “knowledge” in the hope that something sticks together into some cohesive line of reasoning.

Your reasoning skill isn’t just basic; it’s schizophrenic .
« Last Edit: October 03, 2021, 11:52:44 am by Savant »


  • gogators!
  • Waygook Lord

    • 6166

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: You say you want a revolution
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2021, 07:06:14 pm »
Floods are part of the cycle of nature, same with the tides, forest fires, and volcanoes.

I remember you thinking they were only destructive and despite several prompts, failing to see the connection between flooding and some of the earliest civilizations known to humankind.
That's a complete mischaracterization of my poss on the subject. You kept blowing off flood damage and deaths in Korea and brought up the flooding of the Nile, which wasn't even a horse of a different color.

More like a donkey.


Re: You say you want a revolution
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2021, 10:20:20 am »
None of that matters to the United States from a religious perspective.

You just throw out a lot of “history” and “knowledge” in the hope that something sticks together into some cohesive line of reasoning.

Your reasoning skill isn’t just basic; it’s schizophrenic .
You're actually suggesting that some sort of civil war in the U.S. wouldn't resemble the mix of Vietnam-Yugoslavia-Iraq that I suggested and instead by neatly divided along state barriers???


  • Savant
  • The Legend

    • 3483

    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: You say you want a revolution
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2021, 12:47:10 pm »
You're actually suggesting that some sort of civil war in the U.S. wouldn't resemble the mix of Vietnam-Yugoslavia-Iraq that I suggested and instead by neatly divided along state barriers???

I'm suggesting there is no past model for how a second civil war in the US would follow. You playing armchair general is that..a suggestion.
The United States would have the allied support of NATO and the UN. The secession states would have...what?..China and Russia...as they would look to take advantage of the turmoil.


Re: You say you want a revolution
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2021, 01:03:09 pm »
I'm suggesting there is no past model for how a second civil war in the US would follow. You playing armchair general is that..a suggestion.
The United States would have the allied support of NATO and the UN. The secession states would have...what?..China and Russia...as they would look to take advantage of the turmoil.
Yes, there is no exact model and we are speculating, but suffice to say it is far more probable that it would take on the elements from the previous wars that I listed than be some neat line between Red State and Blue State. Or are you suggesting otherwise?

It is questionable whether NATO and the UN would get directly involved in an internal U.S. conflict. I highly doubt that the citizens of NATO countries would be willing to deal with the potential casualties and sustained costs that such a conflict would involve. Also, aside from the UK and perhaps France, no other NATO country has the ability to do a large-scale sustained overseas deployment, and even then with UK and France their capacity is limited. Likewise for China and Russia. In all likelihood NATO, the UN, China and Russia would all make various noises and token gestures, but not do anything serious, outside of maybe some sort of humanitarian relief effort or attempted mediation.

As I said before, you'd likely have a weakened central U.S. government dealing with fanatics on both sides rather than an outright civil war. Or maybe you'd have something low-key and sustained like The Troubles.

Anyways, what do you think it would look like?