Imagine....

I fully agree that choice is the core element. While making veils legally binding, it defeats the purpose.

However, UNDERSTAND something BEFORE you critique it.

As mentioned previously in this thread, the veil is not a 'fard' (obligatory) teaching in Islam. What is 'fard' is to cover one's 'assets', which include the body (including the figure), excluding the feet, hands and face. So, your belief the prophet Muhammad (PBUH) instructed his followers to wear it is completely false.

There are few places in the world where the veil is required, in public, and these are mainly isolated regions or areas controlled by ISIS or the Taliban. Even Saudi women don't need to wear the veil. So... no legitimate legal system pear-say is forcing them to.
Again, your beliefs are false.

There are multiple reasons why a Muslim woman would wear the veil and while there are circumstances where she is forced to there are PLENTY of cases where she is doing it by choice. I'd argue that, from my experience and knowledge, the majority are wearing it by choice. Out of curiosity, I asked my wife what she'd say if I told her to wear the veil. She laughed and said I could go find another wife if I asked her to wear that.

To say that all Muslim women are being forced to wear the veil is incredibly insulting and demeaning to the majority who are wearing it by choice. The thought needs to cross your mind that these women have completely different values to you. When you're a white American, growing up in the US, spending most of your time around white friends and family you develop certain values and, in many cases, these values become the objective standard that you measure other people's values too.

The women wearing a veil becomes "oppressed" from your perspective, because where you come from the woman who flaunts her beauty is venerated.

Muslim women aren't the only ones who have different values to modern westerners. I've had a female NET, who I only met twice, get all passive aggressive and pissy after I politely refused her hug (was at the end of a workshop and we were all saying goodbye). At a different workshop, a female CT shrieked when the male NET she worked with went in for a hug to say goodbye. Apparently being co-workers for a year entitles you to a hug. I've seen this happen ALL THE TIME, in Korea.
As mentioned in a previous thread, modern westerners tend to be extremely ameri-centric and oblivious to the values and attitudes of people, cultures and faiths which they haven't been exposed to. 

It's pure arrogance to believe that women outside your circle are living under oppression simply because they have different values. The Muslim women wearing a veil is trying really hard to be respected for more than her body, I think giving her that is the least you could do.

No, my point was that first and foremost about WHO forces and enforces the rule, WHY they do it, and IF the person/s have a CHOICE in the matter.  If a person has a choice, I truly do not care what they choose to wear, but if they are forced to by circumstances outside of their control, it is wrong!

If people are using bare breasts and asses as counterpoints, that is kind of out of the scope here as we are talking about women wearing cloth to cover their faces, hair, and in some cases whole bodies (and sometimes screens to cover their eyes) because the custom deems they should and in some cases the LAW deems they should as well.

Now I think WHY would a woman do this....?  Because MEN have TOLD them they need to do so.  And WHY would men do this?  Because they they need to exert their POWER, their CONTROL, and their STATUS over the women wearing these coverings.  Because if they don't wear them, they will be seen by other MEN and WOMEN as less in status (socially as well as in terms of piety).  (To say this has something to do about rebellion of Western forces is ridiculous because they are CHOOSING to wear these clothes.  I'm talking about women who can't choose.)

And HOW could men use this power?  By using religion.  And through the Quran he has found something that strengthens his claims to power over women, and thus this tradition has thus flourished and has morphed into a culture of oppression.  Now to say that many Muslim women in the Middle East are not oppressed is wrong~!

Again, my argument has been about CHOICE and WHO created it and WHY this custom persists.

I think if women don't have a CHOICE, and are being forced to wear this stuff, then it is wrong.  And don't keep comparing this to bare breasts and bare asses...cause its apples and oranges.

 

I do wish to say that I don't mean to disparage Aristocrat AT ALL.... I think he is a very fine man, like a true gentleman (and I do say this because I know that in his posts he shows compassion, tolerance, decorum, and has always shown respect/reverence for people and even animals' well-being).

There were no slaves shipped into Massachusetts.  They did it on their own and the original settlers had peace with the nearby natives for nearly 50 years.

50 years! Impressive! 
Even the Vikings had a *lot* longer with the Thule. Although, admittedly, it took them about 5 minutes into first contact with the Vinland natives to start picking fights they couldn't win....
 

You want to talk slavery, the Carribbean and the British along with the Spaniards who also enslaved the local native population to work in their minds.

Yes. And... ... ...?

Learn a little history and don't lump all folks in together. ..But Puritans are often referred to as those who get offended by almost anything and have a moral outrage.

Always open to learning more. But as you yourself have clearly stated, the term "Puritans" can refer to more than just the originals. I wasn't referring to just the OG, sorry if that wasn't clear.

Also, I find that terms like "the right" and "the left" are gross over-generalizations, and lump very disparate groups together. In fact, I think that those 2 terms are the very root of America's current state of extreme political polarization. It leads to the "us vs them" mentality that has seriously undermined the unity of that nation, and provides a huge lever for competing/hostile nations. The sooner that broad-sweeping terms like "the left" and "the right" are abandoned, the faster the US can heal and continue on its previous path of prosperity.
   I wouldn't be surprised if, in the future, people who promote partisanship will be retrospectively branded as agitators, and perhaps, even traitors.

Those who came to the North came for religious liberty though some were wound up too tight and to the South - Virginia  - Jamestown for business growing crops.  They started off with Indentured servants who got their freedom and land after several years.  Later they did sadly turn to African slaves like the European nations in the Caribbean and elsewhere. Barbary slavery existed at this time with white slavery up until the early 1800's. 

Again, sure, no arguments. But... what's the point you're making?

Well, that is the new left today behaving like that now.

And *only* "the left", of course. 

It's unsurprising that...

I appreciate the explanation. It was an informative read. But really, I was expressing my not-so-very-shockedness at our resident far-right poster ascribing yet another negative quality to "the left".

ie:

50 years! Impressive! 
Even the Vikings had a *lot* longer with the Thule. Although, admittedly, it took them about 5 minutes into first contact with the Vinland natives to start picking fights they couldn't win....
  Yes. And... ... ...?
 Always open to learning more. But as you yourself have clearly stated, the term "Puritans" can refer to more than just the originals. I wasn't referring to just the OG, sorry if that wasn't clear.

Also, I find that terms like "the right" and "the left" are gross over-generalizations, and lump very disparate groups together. In fact, I think that those 2 terms are the very root of America's current state of extreme political polarization. It leads to the "us vs them" mentality that has seriously undermined the unity of that nation, and provides a huge lever for competing/hostile nations. The sooner that broad-sweeping terms like "the left" and "the right" are abandoned, the faster the US can heal and continue on its previous path of prosperity.
   I wouldn't be surprised if, in the future, people who promote partisanship will be retrospectively branded as agitators, and perhaps, even traitors.
Again, sure, no arguments. But... what's the point you're making?
 And *only* "the left", of course. 
I appreciate the explanation. It was an informative read. But really, I was expressing my not-so-very-shockedness at our resident far-right poster ascribing yet another negative quality to "the left".

ie:

It is the far left that is crazy and is increasingly taking over the Democratic Party.  You did see how they harassed Kristin Sinema the other day.  So, there are reasonable Democrats out there and centrists like Sinema and Joe Manchin.  But the crazies like the squad, the air heads like Trudeau and Kamala Harris are something else but will give the woke kids whatever they want with no delay.  Either way, the new left is crazy and other traditonal liberals have pointed this out on their own.  Long time Liberal and Trump hater Bill Maher being but one example.  Antifa rioting and burning down buildings.  Trying to storm the White House in summer of 2020 where Trump had to go into the bunker.  Yet, we only hear of Jan 6th over and over.  No bias there. 

As for history, the point is you said everyone was a slave owner.  The truth is many and most were not.  The original Puritans had good relations with the natives for 50 years. 

It is the far left that is crazy and is increasingly taking over the Democratic Party.

Your biases are showing. 

As for history, the point is you said everyone was a slave owner.

I did not say that, actually. 

No, my point was that first and foremost about WHO forces and enforces the rule, WHY they do it, and IF the person/s have a CHOICE in the matter.  If a person has a choice, I truly do not care what they choose to wear, but if they are forced to by circumstances outside of their control, it is wrong!

Perfectly legitimate questions. I'm assuming they aren't rhetorical so I'll answer them.

WHO forces and enforces the rule

The veil is NOT a rule in Islam. In fact, Islam doesn't have rules, rules are for games. Islam has teachings. Therefore, if someone claims it's a rule it's because they made it a rule. In Islam we call this 'bidah' or innovation, which refers to making things up and claiming it's a Religious teaching.

Enforcement? Again, Islam has teachings so laws and the enforcement of said laws are done by governments or whoever/whatever is in charge. If you enforce a teaching it's no longer a teaching, it becomes a law. A rule or law has a penalty when broken, a teaching does not.

Some critics might get frustrated with the logic I'm using saying I'm just playing with semantics, but it isn't. You really have to be incredibly thorough and knowledgable in these things before you can critique with any degree of competence.

WHY they do it

The 'men doing it purely to subjugate women? I don't know, maybe. Though, I'd say it's more rigid cultural practice and not wanting to stand out or go against the norm... same as everywhere else. Honestly though, I don't know as in all my years in a Muslim community that LOVES to gossip, I've never heard of a woman being forced to wear a veil by her father or husband, at least where I'm from. It also seems kind of odd as a means to 'claim ownership', 'status' or 'control'.

Essentially, you're claiming that these men are trying to brag to everyone with what they 'own'. Well, this is done all around the world, ALL THE TIME, with both men AND women. A man will parade his hot girlfriend around and a wife might brag about her rich husband to everyone around her. Why your theory makes no sense to me is that when someone brags, they want everyone to see and covet what they have. It makes no sense that a man would want to show off his wife... and then cover her up, completely. It's like buying a fancy handbag to show off, but keeping it wrapped inside a towel.

Is the man trying to show off his ability to 'control'? In certain places in the world, perhaps, but how is that different from abusive and controlling men you find everywhere who:

- force their partners to dress and speak a certain way
- call their partners 50x a day to check where they are
- not allow their partners to have friends or leave the house

Hopefully, you can see how I've established that the veil is, in fact, a cultural practice or custom. Please pay attention as my previous post clearly explained that these men can't use Islam or the Qur'an to justify it as there is NO mention of a veil in the Qur'an  (find a single mention of woman being instructed to wear a veil/face covering in the Qur'an and I'll become and Atheist right now). So, your theory of men using the Qur'an to justify the veil is completely wrong.

WHO created it

The idea to wear a veil is a very old custom from the Middle-East. In the dessert, it was originally a practical solution for protecting the face and eyes from the sand. About 150yrs after the death of Muhammad (PBUH) it's not clear who or why some Muslim women began wearing the veil, but it's suggested that some women took it upon themselves to surrender their beauty to emulate Muhammad's (PBUH) wives, who are referred to as 'Mothers of the Believers'. These women where revered, the veil was venerated as a symbol of abandoning worldly concerns to please God and that's likely how it become adopted as a cultural practice.

I give these sisters the benefit of the doubt and I think you should too.

I really think you have no idea who these women who wear the veil are?
If you're brave enough, try wearing a veil or even a hijab for a day in a place where Muslims are the minority. Experiencing just one day of the abuse, insults, threats, stares and comments these sisters put up for most of their lives might give you some idea of the ridiculous strength and faith these sisters have to tolerate this sh*t and still do it.

Maybe then, you might think twice before jumping to the concussion that someone that strong, resilient and defiant can be controlled by anyone.

   
If you're brave enough, try wearing a veil or even a hijab for a day in a place where Muslims are the minority. Experiencing just one day of the abuse, insults, threats, stares and comments these sisters put up for most of their lives might give you some idea of the ridiculous strength and faith these sisters have to tolerate this sh*t and still do it.

Or braver still, try walking around Riyadh in a crop top and mini skirt

Or braver still, try walking around Riyadh in a crop top and mini skirt

I spent quite a bit of time writing that post and the topic isn't something one takes lightly. Saudi Arabia is a Kingdom, not a Democracy. You are not free to wear what you wish there. Saudi Arabia isn't being hypocritical about it, you wear what the law allows you to wear or you don't go there. Western nations ruled by Democracy, a woman should be free to wear either a veil or a boob tube if she wishes.

Oversimplifying as you did is a peanut gallery worthy contribution by someone looking to devolve a serious issue into a joke.
If you're not going to engage it in a constructive and mature manner then I ask you to kindly piss off.

I spent quite a bit of time writing that post and the topic isn't something one takes lightly. Saudi Arabia is a Kingdom, not a Democracy. You are not free to wear what you wish there. Saudi Arabia isn't being hypocritical about it, you wear what the law allows you to wear or you don't go there….

Crown Prince MbS has reminded us that Quran says nothing about abayas, hijabs and niqabs.

Foreign women are (explicitly) not required to wear them anymore, and when I was there (late 2019 to late 2020) I noticed more and more choosing not to every week at the grocery store - the only place I could go due to lockdowns.  Even some local women choose not to wear them. There is a fine for dressing immodesty, but it can only be leveled by police, not the “religious police”.

They have also removed the “single (men)” and “family” dining area in restaurants, and allow unmarried foreigners share hotel rooms (acknowledging that different cultures have different practices).

Much of what you have seen in Saudi in the past has been “culture” and “political control” rather than religion. Culture changes, and King Salman and his heir MbS seam to be less interested in that type of control than their predecessors.

Imagine there's no heaven. It's easy if you try.

Imagine how amazing it would be to live here. As long as I had something to read I could do without much of modernity.

Crown Prince MbS has reminded us that Quran says nothing about abayas, hijabs and niqabs.

Foreign women are (explicitly) not required to wear them anymore, and when I was there (late 2019 to late 2020) I noticed more and more choosing not to every week at the grocery store - the only place I could go due to lockdowns.  Even some local women choose not to wear them. There is a fine for dressing immodesty, but it can only be leveled by police, not the “religious police”.

They have also removed the “single (men)” and “family” dining area in restaurants, and allow unmarried foreigners share hotel rooms (acknowledging that different cultures have different practices).

Much of what you have seen in Saudi in the past has been “culture” and “political control” rather than religion. Culture changes, and King Salman and his heir MbS seam to be less interested in that type of control than their predecessors.

Thanks for that.

Watched some YT video of an American guy who travels to unusual locations, like Saudi. I believe he travelled there quite recently
and spent a lot of time with some young locals. The locals claimed that it's changed dramatically in the last couple of years, gender mixing
is taking place in cafes and restaurants where young couples are meeting and spending time. This is part of a drive to increase investment
and business from abroad.

I was a good time to have been there to see the changes happening almost every week.

I started this thread about imaging cool stuff. It sure was diverged into something it was not meant to be.

You posted this:

This will be dedicated to images of "Imagine..."  Allexpressed opinions are welcome.

Here's m y first....

Question: Why????? Really. just why? Why do some men demand their wife dress like this?

The discussion followed exactly how a rational person would expect it to.

I started this thread about imaging cool stuff. It sure was diverged into something it was not meant to be.

Imagine an affordable, versatile vehicle with great gas mileage: https://news.yahoo.com/ford-maverick-truck-america-needs-170400011.html?_guc_consent_skip=1633541470

It's Friday night and I have had the worst week of work since I started working in the summer of 1979. I am drunk.
My family were big magazine buyers. I don't even know if people still buy magazines. They came every month in the mail, usually on the same day'ish and it was an exciting time.

My ____mag should be here today!

Our family, including my choices got: National Geographic (family), Reader's Digest ( mom and kinda me), Popular Mechanics  (dad and kinda me), Discover (my science mag), MAD! ( me and dad...he loved that mag and he was a very talented artist. The liner cartoons by Sergio Arragones....), and Circus my Rock n Roll mag. And of course Playboy which my mom bought a subscription for me for my16th birthday. Pretty cool thing for a mom to do.

But that National Geographic with the picture of the Terra Cotta Warriors on it. Dreams become reality.......

Imagine.........



The Nat. Geo. mag showed up in our mailbox and I was instantly gripped. The cover picture looked so awesome. I read the story, I was 13 or 14, and I said to myself, "Someday I will see those warriors."

I spent 4 hellish months in China in 2016. But 2 things happened that made it worthwhile.

#1 I met a really nice girl from Italy who was teaching at our university and had an MA in Chinese. She spoke, read, and wrote Chinese Mandarin fluently.

 #2 We went to Xian together and you could not ask for better company. We had a nice hotel room and hired a private driver for 4 days while we were there. He was at our beck and call. We appreciated everything he did, and of course my friend could talk to him.

She. too. has spent a 2 week holiday here in our house with me and me wife. At my wife's behest I might add.

These are some profoundly amateur pictures I took with my lousy camera.

Can you dig the detail? The bottom of the shoe pf the archer, the hair, the armour....

For me it was an absolute dream come true.

Imagine a a 40 year old dream coming true!!!

I started this thread about imaging cool stuff. It sure was diverged into something it was not meant to be.

As JNM explained, you set the initial topic and it was NOT about 'cool stuff'.

While we're all happy that you're enjoying life, it seems people are infinitely more
interested in discussing current issues than ogling over your personal photo album
and holiday pics.

You're living your dream, but buddy... we really don't care.

As JNM explained, you set the initial topic and it was NOT about 'cool stuff'.

While we're all happy that you're enjoying life, it seems people are infinitely more
interested in discussing current issues than ogling over your personal photo album
and holiday pics.

You're living your dream, but buddy... we really don't care.

You seem like a truly miserable cantankerous person.

I can't imagine being like that.

Imagine an affordable, versatile vehicle with great gas mileage: https://news.yahoo.com/ford-maverick-truck-america-needs-170400011.html?_guc_consent_skip=1633541470

In 2016 I bought a new Kia Picanto. It was expensive her, $16,700, due to import taxes. No problem, my wife won $7000 the next day and we put it straight down on the car.

Decent wheels and comfortable and a great city car. Not too sure I'd like to drive it from T'or Bay to Vancouver.