Imagine....

When I lived in rural small-town Korea, DMart was my town's worst and filthiest mart.

Dude, it's not that bad. Man the F up and stop whining about it.

The good ol' days of Canadians complaining about the heat. That was all pre-trump of course.

What if a a bunch of women made laws forcing men to wears veils and nonsense over their bodies? No way would they comply!

It is ****** wrong.  It has everything to do with CONTROL! It's men (who have invented those laws) ordering women that they have to wear these garments because it "protects them" and that Mohammed willed it??? **** off!

It is archaic and it's wrong BECAUSE women have NO CHOICE in the matter and that is the issue!  Nobody in their right mind would wear a penguin outfit with two eyes poked out if that was their choice!!MEN MADE those laws offering women NO CHOICE, saying it was God handing it down to a prophet!!!  Even being ORDERED to wear a veil over the hair is ridiculous!  Why?  Because you shouldn't be ordered to do that.  it's a law MADE BY MAN to control you!  I would argue even if you were ordered to wear a veil over you toes, it is WRONG!  WHY?  Because you don't have control over your body.[/u]

And I do agree with the many posters on this topic that says it comes to sex and property.  It's like "I'm gonna cover my bitch up so you can't see her, she is mine"...and I will mostly keep her in the house, but when I bring her out in public I will dress her up as a mofo penguin so you don't get eyes for her" 

How is that not wrong?
 
ITS WRONG BECAUSE SHE HAS NO CHOICE!!!!! And that is what irks me and should irk everyone!  No one should be forced to wear blankets and veils over their bodies because their "mans" can't deal with their looks.

Now in Saudi Arabia: 91F / 33C. High for the day is 101F / 38C. Not even the hottest time of year. That’d be June / July / August.

It’s been annoying to wear a mask during the pandemic; imagine a beekeeper suit forever.

Humans need sunlight exposure on skin for optimal health. It’s the way we evolved.

Now in Saudi Arabia: 91F / 33C. High for the day is 101F / 38C. Not even the hottest time of year. That’d be June / July / August.

It’s been annoying to wear a mask during the pandemic; imagine a beekeeper suit forever.

Humans need sunlight exposure on skin for optimal health. It’s the way we evolved.

Good point about vitamin D.

What if a a bunch of women made laws forcing men to wears veils and nonsense over their bodies? No way would they comply!

It is ****** wrong.  It has everything to do with CONTROL! It's men (who have invented those laws) ordering women that they have to wear these garments because it "protects them" and that Mohammed willed it??? **** off!

It is archaic and it's wrong BECAUSE women have NO CHOICE in the matter and that is the issue!  Nobody in their right mind would wear a penguin outfit with two eyes poked out if that was their choice!!MEN MADE those laws offering women NO CHOICE, saying it was God handing it down to a prophet!!!  Even being ORDERED to wear a veil over the hair is ridiculous!  Why?  Because you shouldn't be ordered to do that.  it's a law MADE BY MAN to control you!  I would argue even if you were ordered to wear a veil over you toes, it is WRONG!  WHY?  Because you don't have control over your body.[/u]

And I do agree with the many posters on this topic that says it comes to sex and property.  It's like "I'm gonna cover my bitch up so you can't see her, she is mine"...and I will mostly keep her in the house, but when I bring her out in public I will dress her up as a mofo penguin so you don't get eyes for her" 

How is that not wrong?
 
ITS WRONG BECAUSE SHE HAS NO CHOICE!!!!! And that is what irks me and should irk everyone!  No one should be forced to wear blankets and veils over their bodies because their "mans" can't deal with their looks.

Yes, but I mean you could say Western governments control women by forcing them to cover their breasts when they go out in public, and women in the Amazon rain forest etc. are much freer from tyranny. Different cultures and all that. All equally valid.

Yes, but I mean you could say Western governments control women by forcing them to cover their breasts when they go out in public, and women in the Amazon rain forest etc. are much freer from tyranny. Different cultures and all that. All equally valid.

A bit of a difference in extreme.  Also, in a lot of the west a woman is now free to uncover her breasts in public in the same places a man can.  Been that way for a long time in some paces.  A lot of women choose not to, and perhaps a lot of Muslim women would choose to cover up.  Key word is "choose" here.  Most of us in the west are familiar with the "No shirt, no service" signs outside businesses.  It applies to both men and women.  A woman wants to go stroll down the street in Toronto and hang out in the park topless, she's welcome to.  The problem is, she's also very welcome to by every 14 year old in the city, so we're not mature enough with it, yet.  Germany is the west.  Go to a city park there.  There's not a visiting contingent of Amazonian women. 

By western government, do you mean Utah?  I can see them having issues with a woman's boobs out in public. 

Yes, but I mean you could say Western governments control women by forcing them to cover their breasts when they go out in public,

i mean, some people do protest that too, haha. #freethenipple and all that.

A woman wants to go stroll down the street in Toronto and hang out in the park topless, she's welcome to.  The problem is, she's also very welcome to by every 14 year old in the city, so we're not mature enough with it, yet

Isn't this exactly the same principle at work in strict Muslim countries? A woman isn't free to walk down the streets topless in Toronto by law because it would have a detrimental effect on young males. A Muslim woman isn't allowed to show her face in strict Muslim countries by law for the same reasons.  Just different degrees at work.

Isn't this exactly the same principle at work in strict Muslim countries? A woman isn't free to walk down the streets topless in Toronto by law because it would have a detrimental effect on young males. A Muslim woman isn't allowed to show her face in strict Muslim countries by law for the same reasons.  Just different degrees at work.

You didn't read what I wrote.  A woman IS free by LAW in Toronto to walk down the street topless.  She just may not be comfortable in doing so as it's only about twenty years since she's been able to.  People have to catch up to thinking it's not sexual.  But, if a man is able to walk topless, so is a woman.  She has that choice.  It wouldn't have a detrimental affect on guys.  But, she might not want the attention. 

I mean, let's be frank. The amount of topless men who are just walking around the city are pretty low, too. The beach is one thing, but it's not like there are droves of shirtless men just walking around............. .. well, anywhere.

You didn't read what I wrote.  A woman IS free by LAW in Toronto to walk down the street topless.  She just may not be comfortable in doing so as it's only about twenty years since she's been able to.  People have to catch up to thinking it's not sexual.  But, if a man is able to walk topless, so is a woman.  She has that choice.  It wouldn't have a detrimental affect on guys.  But, she might not want the attention.

Really? There are no public decency laws regarding breasts in Canada?

I mean, let's be frank. The amount of topless men who are just walking around the city are pretty low, too. The beach is one thing, but it's not like there are droves of shirtless men just walking around............. .. well, anywhere.

Have you never been to Hong Kong? It's pretty common there.

I mean, let's be frank. The amount of topless men who are just walking around the city are pretty low, too. The beach is one thing, but it's not like there are droves of shirtless men just walking around............. .. well, anywhere.

No, but if you can remember Gwen Jacobs, a name that is seared into the memory of males of a certain age range in Ontario, she strolled down the street in the nineties on a hot day and purposely got cited for being topless.  She challenged this as men had the right to walk around on a hot day and I guess it wound its way to the Ontario Supreme Court and the law was overturned.  Now, obviously most men don't walk around the streets without a shirt, but in a park on catching some rays on the beach or whatever, a woman can go topless.  The fact that many do not is because it's still a bit of a novelty and some immigrants from more conservative countries make just explode on the spot (especially if they're from a country where women are forced to cover up.)  Apparently, in some cultures a woman in baggy sweatpants going out to the corner store would be too much for males from certain countries.  But, I'd say men that can't see women in shirts and jeans without getting excited are just perverts. 

Really? There are no public decency laws regarding breasts in Canada?

Sure, there are.  And female breasts are not considered indecent under the laws of Ontario and Quebec.  That's pretty much all of Canada.  Maybe topless skiing is a thing in B.C.  You're never going to go to the rest of Canada unless your plane gets diverted. 

Really? There are no public decency laws regarding breasts in Canada?

Funny you should bring that up because, unlike in the USA, it is perfectly legal for women (and men) to walk about topless in public. In fact, it's explicitly mentioned in the legal books, a hold over from long ago when barroom floozies lobbied for it, I believe.

Related point of interest: Where I lived in BC was originally settled by Doukhobors kicked out of Russia when it went Red (signs in cyrillic, Russian Orthodox Church, ruskie festivals, Russian taught as second language in schools etc etc). One of the things that came along with the Doukhobors was one of their extremist sects called the Sons of Freedom. They enjoyed protesting things, and would often march through parts of town "clad in the light".   
     

Now in Saudi Arabia: 91F / 33C. High for the day is 101F / 38C. Not even the hottest time of year. That’d be June / July / August.

It’s been annoying to wear a mask during the pandemic; imagine a beekeeper suit forever.

As I said before, I'll go with the desert people who have dealt with this for millennia vs. Westerner who soaks their t-shirt in 15 minutes in moderate heat and stinks up the bus.

Seriously, given some of the ineptitude I've seen on this forum regarding basic measures for staying cool (What do you mean wear an undershirt??? Why is polyester bad????), we really are in no position to lecture.

What if a a bunch of women made laws forcing men to wears veils and nonsense over their bodies? No way would they comply!

It is ****** wrong.  It has everything to do with CONTROL! It's men (who have invented those laws) ordering women that they have to wear these garments because it "protects them" and that Mohammed willed it??? **** off!

I fully agree that choice is the core element. While making veils legally binding, it defeats the purpose.

However, UNDERSTAND something BEFORE you critique it.

As mentioned previously in this thread, the veil is not a 'fard' (obligatory) teaching in Islam. What is 'fard' is to cover one's 'assets', which include the body (including the figure), excluding the feet, hands and face. So, your belief the prophet Muhammad (PBUH) instructed his followers to wear it is completely false.

There are few places in the world where the veil is required, in public, and these are mainly isolated regions or areas controlled by ISIS or the Taliban. Even Saudi women don't need to wear the veil. So... no legitimate legal system pear-say is forcing them to.
Again, your beliefs are false.

There are multiple reasons why a Muslim woman would wear the veil and while there are circumstances where she is forced to there are PLENTY of cases where she is doing it by choice. I'd argue that, from my experience and knowledge, the majority are wearing it by choice. Out of curiosity, I asked my wife what she'd say if I told her to wear the veil. She laughed and said I could go find another wife if I asked her to wear that.

To say that all Muslim women are being forced to wear the veil is incredibly insulting and demeaning to the majority who are wearing it by choice. The thought needs to cross your mind that these women have completely different values to you. When you're a white American, growing up in the US, spending most of your time around white friends and family you develop certain values and, in many cases, these values become the objective standard that you measure other people's values too.

The women wearing a veil becomes "oppressed" from your perspective, because where you come from the woman who flaunts her beauty is venerated.

Muslim women aren't the only ones who have different values to modern westerners. I've had a female NET, who I only met twice, get all passive aggressive and pissy after I politely refused her hug (was at the end of a workshop and we were all saying goodbye). At a different workshop, a female CT shrieked when the male NET she worked with went in for a hug to say goodbye. Apparently being co-workers for a year entitles you to a hug. I've seen this happen ALL THE TIME, in Korea.
As mentioned in a previous thread, modern westerners tend to be extremely ameri-centric and oblivious to the values and attitudes of people, cultures and faiths which they haven't been exposed to. 

It's pure arrogance to believe that women outside your circle are living under oppression simply because they have different values. The Muslim women wearing a veil is trying really hard to be respected for more than her body, I think giving her that is the least you could do.

Mahmoud Abdul-Raouf, the NBA player who refused to stand for the anthem in the 90s (or was it the 2000s?) and was vilified for it, also refused to shower alongside other players and would be careful to cover himself in accordance with Islam as he practiced it. Rules are not just applied to women.

So... no legitimate legal system pear-say is forcing them to.
Again, your beliefs are false.

Just for the record. But I do love the way you spelled it, too.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/per-se