Imagine....

You are also thinking that I have never encountered women/girls wearing  hijab and niqab. Not true at all.

Everyone has encountered Muslim women wearing hijabs, niqabs etc.

You story is about ELEMENTARY and MIIDDLE SCHOOL kids. They and you were kids who are going to be insecure, judgemental and somewhat rigid and immature in their thinking. These aren't fully grown adults.

- They were refugees meaning this was likely their first time doing P.E around boys, Nevermind the heat, can you imagine how uncomfortable that must make them feel?
- They were refugees meaning all the boys and girls knew was the culture where they're from
- If the Muslim girls were at a girl's school, they'd have no problem wearing shorts and a t-shirt.
- Muslim immigrants are immigrants because their country is a conflict zone. Conflict zones have a large extremist presence. Therefore, most Muslim immigrants in 1st world western right now are going to be very conservative and/or have a strong extremist cultural influence governing
  their behaviour.

if their clothing didn't cover their neck and bodies he would chide them, mercilessly.

Because that's what immature little piss ants do when they find a little bit of power to play with. He was a kid trying to show off how tough he has to the other boys, nothing new.

Contrary to the girls we also had 2 Muslim boys in our class and they always wore what they wanted to

https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different.html
Islam and all proven science share the belief that men and women are biologically and cognitively different. Contemporary Western ideology and culture tends to challenge this.

Islam teaches that in light of this differences, men and women have different strengths/weaknesses and responsibilities. They're taught to dress differently and do things differently. Sometimes it's easier for men, sometimes it's easier for women.
If you lived as a Muslim women, instead of just watching them on occasion, you'd see what happens when they're not at school. Your experience is too limited to make a judgement.

Either way, if you disagree the solution is simple, don't be Muslim.

And NOBODY would make fun of them at all, but we would feel so bad for them...WE asked WHY DO YOU HAVE TO WEAR THESE CLOTHES, ARE YOU OK?>

You were kids, so you get a pass, but if there's one thing that's more patronising and condescending than mockery it's pity.
"Poor you, from your backward culture and Religion, it's ok to be like us"

She was doing P.E around boys because she thought she had to, not because she wanted to and she was simply trying to get through the experience. She should've enrolled in a girl's school, but
obviously didn't have that luxury because her parents were poor, desperate immigrants.

Imagine (see, I honoured the thread title) if I had to walk about to women who was scantly dressed and I had to feel bad for her and say...

WHY DO YOU HAVE TO WEAR THESE CLOTHES, ARE YOU OK?>>>

If you see no problem with me or any other person saying this to someone who is dressed scantly (but not breaking laws of public indecency or exposure)
yet you take issue with this kid trying to cover her skin then that's nothing short of raging hypocrisy and discrimination.

Most Muslim people in Western countries are holding their tongue when it comes to commenting on non-Muslims' clothing. In some ways, they practice Democracy
and liberty better than native Westerners who can't seem to mind their own business.

Clothing isn't always meant for comfort. My tracksuit pants and slippers would be far more comfortable to wear to work than my dress pants and shirt, but
we sacrifice a bit of comfort in order to be appropriate for the occasion. You understand the concept? Now consider that levels of appropriateness vary by Religion and culture.
Not that hard to at least understand the reasoning if you are willing to be reasonable.

Please stop saying that it does not originate from the Quran... It does.  Being modest is encapsulated there in your prophet's words 24:31...

I said there's no evidence to instruct women to COVER THEIR FACES. Covering the face is not necessary, it is optional. If covering the face was necessary, why
are millions of Muslim women, every year, allowed to enter Masjid al-Haram (The Great Mosque of Mecca and the holiest place in Islam) while having their
faces exposed?

understand your need to defend Islam because it resides in you

I'm not defending anything because nothing is under attack and I'm not feeling threatened at all.
I'm simply answering your questions. If you stop asking, I'll stop answering. As a Muslim, it's my duty
to answer questions about Islam and if I can't, I'm to direct you to a source that will answer your question.

Islam isn't always easy, both men and women have difficulties. The issue is that the Muslim women's difficulties are apparent to you as it's easy to see in public and it's highly publicised on the media.
There's so much you haven't seen and don't know. You don't know the responsibility that rests on a Muslim husband/father's shoulders and/or what God holds him accountable for because you haven't
studied, asked or seen anything about it on a short news segment.
Yes, Islam isn't always easy, but things that also aren't easy include: training to get a physique or reach a certain athletic level, mastering an instrument, learning a language and making a living.

Most Muslim people in Western countries are holding their tongue when it comes to commenting on non-Muslims' clothing. In some ways, they practice Democracy
and liberty better than native Westerners who can't seem to mind their own business.

To be fair that's because it's not their country or their culture. Do you think if a load of Western female immigrants suddenly appeared in a Muslim country walking around in Western style clothing, the locals would hold their tongues?

Either way, if you disagree the solution is simple, don't be Muslim.

I believe dippedinblush explicitly mentioned that she only took issue in cases where women are *forced* to abide by conservative values. "If you disagree, don't be Muslim" isn't much of an option for women who are forced to be Muslim.

I do support parent's rights to raise their children according to their custom. At the same time, if the kid grows up and breaks with that custom, I'd hope the parents would meet that with some amount of grace. Many do, some don't - not saying that I'm identifying a trend of oppression here, just talking about a specific situation.

To be fair that's because it's not their country or their culture. Do you think if a load of Western female immigrants suddenly appeared in a Muslim country walking around in Western style clothing, the locals would hold their tongues?

Correct! Glad you also used the word culture and not Religion.

So a Muslim immigrant fresh off the plane understands the concept of leaving people who have different beliefs alone and not trying to change them as he/she is now in a culture where people are allowed to dress how they wish. Strange that someone who has lived in the free world for their entire life struggles to get this.

I believe dippedinblush explicitly mentioned that she only took issue in cases where women are *forced* to abide by conservative values. "If you disagree, don't be Muslim" isn't much of an option for women who are forced to be Muslim.

I do support parent's rights to raise their children according to their custom. At the same time, if the kid grows up and breaks with that custom, I'd hope the parents would meet that with some amount of grace. Many do, some don't - not saying that I'm identifying a trend of oppression here, just talking about a specific situation.

True, but she brought up a lot of other issues and questions which I'm trying to answer which is why this is going on.

It's impossible to force someone to be a Muslim. Really, it's impossible.
You can force someone to dress like a Muslim and act like one, but you can't force someone to be one. That's between them and God. Forcing a kid with sticks and threats is no way to go about it and it's not what my parents did. My parents raised me to understand my Faith.

Sadly, one of my best friends had a father who did this. His father was one of the most uptight, Taliban assholes you could imagine and what happened. He beat my friend and his mom, brothers and sisters constantly. My friend and his two sisters turned to drugs (meth) and my friend ended up slipping into a coma and dying (at 23) while his sisters eloped with drugy boyfriends (one is living on the street and had her child taken away from her last I heard). Other brother basically became a soft weakling and the eldest is a mirror of his father.

True, but she brought up a lot of other issues and questions which I'm trying to answer which is why this is going on.

It's impossible to force someone to be a Muslim. Really, it's impossible.
You can force someone to dress like a Muslim and act like one, but you can't force someone to be one.

I mean, sure, but that doesn't stop people (like your friend's dad) from trying. Plus "people shouldn't be forced to be Muslim" is basically just shorthand for "people shouldn't be forced to dress/act like a Muslim" anyways. What 99% of people (excluding the weird internet turbo-atheist in the corner nobody listens to) *actually* take issue with is the dress code itself. Hell, a lot of em simply take issue with dress codes in general. "Dress codes in primary/secondary educaiton are classist/sexist/etc" has been an actual argument I've seen a decent amount of. Of course I'm also terminally online and there's no guarantee people spouting off on twitter have any bearing on the real world, lol.

Anyways, I do think that you guys catch most of the heat due to prejudice, but honestly orthodoxy in general has been on a bit of a steady decline. A lot of the criticisms in this thread have also been/are being thrown at more culturally conservative folks in general.

   

So a Muslim immigrant fresh off the plane understands the concept of leaving people who have different beliefs alone and not trying to change them as he/she is now in a culture where people are allowed to dress how they wish.
   

Some do, some don't, I'm sure you don't want to get into the subject of grooming gangs. What you don't seem to get is you're comparing the tolerance level of people immigrating into a country with the people already there. Obviously both groups will have different attitudes to cultural differences.

To be fair that's because it's not their country or their culture. Do you think if a load of Western female immigrants suddenly appeared in a Muslim country walking around in Western style clothing, the locals would hold their tongues?

Well, we have seen in both colonial times and modern times, as soon as westerners set foot in some other place they don't hold their tongues and do have 50 things to say about how people should dress and act and that somehow it's their country.

Well, we have seen in both colonial tims and modern times, as soon as westerners set foot in some other place they don't hold their tongues and do have 50 things to say about how people should dress and act and that somehow it's their country.

Are you including yourself in that gross generalisation?

Are you including yourself in that gross generalisation?

Marti is the opposite. He’s taken it upon himself to tell westerners how they should behave instead of the locals. 

Are you including yourself in that gross generalisation?

My schtick, from the get go, is I firmly believe in the "home rules" view of things and that I am NOT here to transform the society of various peoples around the world or to indoctrinate their youth. Their lives are not empty because they arent into whatever it us I am into ir like to eat. If they do not like something I do, I do not resent them for it. By all means share what you have in mutual exchange and if say at a forum for exchange of views and ideas and morality, then go ahead, but these people do not exist for the purposes of being molded to my view. They are individuals who should set their own hopes, dreams, values and aspirations.

If the people of Afghanistan feel that a strict interpretation of Islam is what they want for their society, more power to them. And if the people of Hedonia want to frolick in the nude and spend all day drinking and fing, go right ahead.

I want the right to dress as a Benedictine monk. Or in a toga or yamulke or as a Buddhist monk or rasta or Kahless or Kefka.

Now does this mean I wont be judged or can do this as a factory worker or teacher? No. But because of that freedom I wish for myself, I grant it to others and I also try and grant them the respect that being part of a protected class (religion) grants them. I dont go around demanding Amish women show more skin or dress more comfortably. Obviously they seem quite capable of taking care of themselves and working quite fine. Their society is doing perfectly fine.

Put another way, we and I have enough shit to worry about without butting our nose into how Muslims dress.

Marti is the opposite. He’s taken it upon himself to tell westerners how they should behave instead of the locals. 

Dude, all I'm advocating for is for people here to show the locals basic decency, respect and kindness (even if they don't experience it themselves), not strolling in with the presumption that they know more, everyone here is an idiot, and the place would be better off if everyone here just followed their list of 50 different suggestions.

You know, not being a d*ck.

I had no idea that you responded to me until now cause the page was so far forward.  I just looked back on a whim and saw your thoughtful response.

I still maintain that wearing these clothes *for women who don't have a choice, is wrong!  Not only is it hot and uncomfortable, it's wrong to hinge modesty on women and the clothes that they wear.

You are also thinking that I have never encountered women/girls wearing  hijab and niqab. Not true at all.

I grew up with girls wearing the hijab and niqab in my elementary and middle school...(My school was one that accepted a certain number of refugees)  In the girl's locker room (getting ready for PE) we would help 2 of our classmates in our class (there were 3 girls) tuck in their traditional clothes into their skirts or pants (they were wearing so many layers to cover their skin as well), so they could participate in Phys. Ed.

When I say they needed to be covered up they wore.. turtle necks and so many layers.  2 of the girls would participate in sports but they would be so hot and uncomfortable, and they were always checking whether or not their skin was showing.

And NOBODY would make fun of them at all, but we would feel so bad for them...WE asked WHY DO YOU HAVE TO WEAR THESE CLOTHES, ARE YOU OK?>>>They would always say: It's my religion.  The other girl would/could not participate because she wasn't allowed to do any gym activities because her father didn't allow her to mingle with boys in the PE class.  She also wasn't allowed to wear pants.

Contrary to the girls we also had 2 Muslim boys in our class and they always wore what they wanted to.  They could play any sport with shorts and a tee and NOT have to be covered up.  They were free... and they also chided the girls wearing hijab and niqab that they needed to cover up more when they were ATTEMPTING to play ANY SPORT!  I remember a boy named Hammad that would go around to 2 girls and check what they were wearing and if their clothing didn't cover their neck and bodies he would chide them, mercilessly.

Do NOT tell me that I don't have an understanding (at least a little bit) of the struggle of women wearing these oppressive clothes.  I don't have any issue at all what they wear but what I DO have a problem with is why WOMEN have the ONUS of being MODEST in Muslim culture?  Why does religion and custom/culture make women hang MODESTY on them?  Why is it ok for a Muslim boy to be free to play soccer with shorts and a tee shirt, and yet a Muslim girl of the same age has to wear layers of clothes and be so uncomfortable doing the same activity because she is Muslim?

Please stop saying that it does not originate from the Quran... It does.  Being modest is encapsulated there in your prophet's words 24:31...

Why has this verse in the Quran become the burden of women?  Perhaps you will say that this meant to be a, b, and c, but that isn't reality at all.  What is reality is the subjugation of women.

Of course I will say to you it must be hard for women wearing the hijab and being outstanding in Western society (but it wasn't when I was little and that was a loooooong time ago, nobody laughed or made fun at all..).  And I don't see it being hard for Muslim women wearing scarves in Canada AT ALL.  No one would say a nasty word about a woman wearing a headscarf these days.  Other countries maybe?~ 

I do think that wearing a hijab/niqab/ or burqa is WRONG if the person doesn't want to and is/has been forced to. 

And to be honest I feel like the whole SITUATION of a woman enrobing not only her body, but face has been created from the start by men wishing to exert control and power over women by covering them, diminishing their individuality and by using religion as a justification.

Women wearing these threads (for the most part) are not Bedouins scrounging around in the desert eking out an existence.  A woman is not honouring her heritage by wearing these clothes. 
They are hot and uncomfortable (coming from people I have met).  And they block peripheral vision (the burqua and niqab).  Why would someone wear that?

I understand your need to defend Islam because it resides in you, and as a MALE you have all the power of your religion to fulfill yourself as a man because it was made by men for men.  But you should also understand the sisters you can not see who are suffering due to an oppressive system which they wish to break free from.  There are many women who have immigrated to other countries and they are happy that they are free from the veil as well.

Dippedin Blush's answer is perfect.

The huge majority of time there is no choice. Women are forced to dress and behave a certain or get stoned. Not in the good way either.

Clad in a taekwondo uniform, a 13-year-old Afghan girl says she is happy with her newfound freedom in South Korea.

She can participate in all sorts of social activities, which were limited only to boys in her home country, and is glad she can do taekwondo without wearing a hijab.

http://m.koreaherald.com/amp/view.php?ud=20211014000896

Dippedin Blush's answer is perfect.

The huge majority of time there is no choice. Women are forced to dress and behave a certain or get stoned. Not in the good way either.

The huge majority of the time?

Son, I'm betting you've never interacted with a Muslim person once in your life but you somehow have personal knowledge of some 800-900 million Muslim women. It's impossible for even the most skilled researcher or statistician to make such a ridiculous conclusion, yet your old ass sitting in "The tropics" (hereinafter known is China) seems to have developed Noble Prize worthy research methodology.

I take it you've seen a Muslim women getting stoned for not wearing a veil? No? Then please shut up.

As they say "You know nothing (about Islam). In fact you know less than nothing. If you knew that you knew nothing you'd know something."

i had a lot of muslim classmates in high school and many of them wore hijabs and i know (from facebook) that at least a few of them have decided to stop wearing them. fortunately, i dont think any of them got disowned or stoned

The huge majority of the time?

Son, I'm betting you've never interacted with a Muslim person once in your life but you somehow have personal knowledge of some 800-900 million Muslim women. It's impossible for even the most skilled researcher or statistician to make such a ridiculous conclusion, yet your old ass sitting in "The tropics" (hereinafter known is China) seems to have developed Noble Prize worthy research methodology.

I take it you've seen a Muslim women getting stoned for not wearing a veil? No? Then please shut up.

As they say "You know nothing (about Islam). In fact you know less than nothing. If you knew that you knew nothing you'd know something."

I never have seen a woman stoned but don't doubt that it happens in some parts of the world.  Fortunately, most of the muslims I think I have met practiced a more moderate form of the faith and not a more extreme one as has been practiced in some places. 

i had a lot of muslim classmates in high school and many of them wore hijabs and i know (from facebook) that at least a few of them have decided to stop wearing them. fortunately, i dont think any of them got disowned or stoned

I also know a few who decided to START wearing them and this wasn't due to any pressure, just that they decided that doing so as an expression of their faith was something they wanted to do. And as you said, those who decided to not wear them. And those who went back and forth based on whatever reason. Same as Christians and others wearing visible expressions or not wearing them, perhaps with parental/peer pressure involved, perhaps not.

I never have seen a woman stoned but don't doubt that it happens in some parts of the world.  Fortunately, most of the muslims I think I have met practiced a more moderate form of the faith and not a more extreme one as has been practiced in some places.

They don't get stoned for not dressing modestly enough, they get beaten or slapped in some countries, like these.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/19/video-of-iran-morality-police-wrestling-with-woman-sparks-outrage

https://gulfnews.com/world/gulf/saudi/outrage-as-riyadh-video-shows-religious-police-abuse-1.1669751

They don't get stoned for not dressing modestly enough, they get beaten or slapped in some countries, like these.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/19/video-of-iran-morality-police-wrestling-with-woman-sparks-outrage

https://gulfnews.com/world/gulf/saudi/outrage-as-riyadh-video-shows-religious-police-abuse-1.1669751

This I learned today: Islam=Iran and Saudi Arabia.