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Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #80 on: September 30, 2021, 04:04:15 pm »
Why use deaths solely as a measure? You can be severely affected by Covid without dying, which also puts a burden on the health system.
You've used political belief and ideology as a factor, not me. I don't care who they support but facts are that most of the non-vaccinated and non-mask wearing crowd are Republicans ergo likely Trump supporters.

If someone has chosen not to get vaccinated during a pandemic then they are a public health danger to the safety of the many [doctors/nurses/patients/family members] which should trump [the irony] that of those who put themselves first.
The point you're making here is perfectly reasonable and fine (although the rates on non-vaccination amongst the African-American community suggests that there's more than "Trump supporter" to it).

But the data does not support some catastrophic chance of death and I think the morality of denying medical care to someone because they engaged in risky behavior is really dubious and is not scientifically supported as a way to help prevent the spread of infectious disease, in fact it may very well exacerbate it.

I mean, this sounds like denying medical care to HIV patients. It's one thing to deny entry to prevent spread, it's another to deny medical care period under the assumption that their lifestyle choices mean they shouldn't receive care.


  • hippo
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Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #81 on: September 30, 2021, 04:20:13 pm »
The focus always seems to be on the US or a handful of developed countries.  There are plenty of Petri dishes for the virus to mutate in other nations.  The virus does not care about human politics. 

Is the coronavirus serious?  Is it easily communicable?  Does it mutate easily?  Have we had mutations that are much more contagious and/or harmful than it was at the beginning at the end of the pandemic?  Might it be possible to have a mutation that renders the virus less impacted by the vaccines or even makes the vaccines ineffective?

If the coronavirus is so serious, as I think it most definitely is, then it would make sense to vaccinate people throughout the world.  Drop the patents, share information about how to make vaccines, and help nations without the resources to manufacture on their own. 

In relation to the pandemic, I worry about vaccine nationalism more than how many obese people there are, who people voted for, or other information.   Is the coronavirus a serious disease or not?  If it is serious, there needs to be a robust global response.

I suspect there is concern among drug manufacturers about a precedent for dropping patents and following the Jonas Salk model might do.  If you can drop the patent for this disease, what about dropping patents for other diseases?  Surely there is much more at play than that, but I see Pfizer pushing for booster shots in the US when much of the globe doesn't have vaccines and I cannot square the circle.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 04:22:53 pm by hippo »


Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #82 on: September 30, 2021, 04:20:24 pm »
Thoughts? There are good points to be made both for and against this, in my opinion.
I'm wracking my brain for a movie that would fit your description, and for some reason, the only thing that comes to mind is the video for Pearl Jam's "Jeremy".
It really is difficult. I sympathize with those who are starting to lose patience with the anti-vaxx crowd and are leaning towards "you made your bed, now lie in it." to an extent. It was understandable during the opening period (I've always used the phrase- "It's fine to want to be at the back of the line so you can wait and see, especially if you might have some factors, but you should still get in line"). I think we're starting to move beyond that point.

Some random thoughts
- I'd be much more comfortable with anti-vaxxers if they were around 10% of the population. We really need another 20-30% in the U.S. to get vaxxed.
- On the other hand, the relatively low mortality rate for COVID means that various stern measures might be disproportional. To put myself in the shoes of an anti-vaxxer, from their perspective they see some fat person yelling at them to get a vaccine or be fired because they're endangering their health over a disease that has a pretty low mortality rate amongst healthy adults below a certain age comparable to that of other diseases and causes of death that don't involve such intervention. It does seem that there is a failure of proportionality taking place. "We had to fire these people and beat them up while arresting them in order to save them and us."  starts to wade into "We had to bomb the village in order to save it" territory.
- At some point the anti-vax crowd, which claims to be pro-economy, has to put their money where their mouth is and be pro-economy and get vaxxed and mask up if it gets business rolling. I think if a "grand bargain" of "You get vaxxed and mask in these specified locations" and ALL other restrictions will go away was offered, that would be a fair offer and if the anti-vaxxers reject that, then I'd be in favor of much sterner measures. The thing is, we're close to that, but there are a few bat-crap restrictions and panic measures, combined with sloppy messaging that are inhibiting that, but the onus is definitely much more on the anti-vax crowd.
- The messaging by the pro-vax crowd has been about the worst I could imagine. Not everything has to be a hard sell and some of the more hysterical claims of doom as well as some of the mischaracterization s just make things worse. Case in point, what was done recently to Jonathan Isaac, NBA player. He gave an interview and the journalist basically said he decided to be anti-vax because he studied black history and watched Trump speeches (?????), which Isaac said was completely false and mischaracterized him, which I tend to suspect happened (watch the interview, Isaac may be (is) wrong, but he does not come across as a liar or someone basing his choice off of kooky stuff).
- As I keep saying, given how the Dems were when Trump started Operation Warp Speed, I really do think that in some parallel universe, Trumpers are getting triple-vaxxed with Trump's "big, beautiful vaccine" while anti-Trumpers are anti-vax. If people on both sides can't recognize that unfortunate part of human nature and at least have some sympathy for people on the other side, then that's sad.


Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #83 on: September 30, 2021, 04:22:12 pm »
obese people drain hospital resources too (i assume).  should fat people pay more for health insurance? (do they already? idk). i dont mean to troll you. i think these questions are related. if people who refuse to vaccine have to forfeit some rights, what about people who refuse to diet? what about people who refuse something more specific (idk like drinking sugar-free soda)? where do we draw the line? am i way off base here?
This. People just tossing out such measures seem to not understand the concept of legal precedent and the affect that has. You give this sort of action legal standing, it opens up a Pandora's Box. Now, it might be worth it to do so, and it might well lead to nothing, but it should be carefully considered before we do it and people need to understand real concerns about it.


  • VanIslander
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Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #84 on: September 30, 2021, 06:24:18 pm »
According to the CDC, 42.4% of Americans were clinically obese in 2018, with an increasing rate, year after year.

In a democracy, the gov't is unlikely to take any measure to upset, challenge, or even inconvenience such a percentage. Obesity is becoming the new norm. "Average" blood pressure, heart rates, bloodwork (e.g., LDL-HDL ratio) will be far from ideal: disease-forming.

The southeastern states aren't as vaccinated, are obese and have higher cancer rates (take a look at cancer maps of the U.S.). Yikes.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 06:26:45 pm by VanIslander »




Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #86 on: September 30, 2021, 06:49:38 pm »
Yes. So?
If it was about being Trumpers it should reflect his share of the black vote.


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Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #87 on: October 01, 2021, 05:43:12 am »
Interesting comparison/update:
"South Korea, Japan and Malaysia have administered more doses per 100 people than the U.S., a pace that seemed unthinkable in the spring.

Vaccines have helped keep most South Koreans out of the hospital. Among fully vaccinated people who contracted Covid there, about 0.6 percent had severe illness and about 0.1 percent died, according to the country’s Disease Control and Prevention Agency.

In Japan, serious cases have fallen by half over the last month, to a little over 1,000 a day. Hospitalizations plummeted from a high of just over 230,000 in late August to around 31,000 on Tuesday.

The turnabout, my colleagues Sui-Lee Wee, Damien Cave and Ben Dooley write, is as much a testament to the region’s success in securing supplies as it is to some Americans’ vaccine hesitancy and political opposition.

Vaccines are not polarizing in the Asia-Pacific region. Movements against them have been relatively small, without the sympathetic news media, advocacy groups and politicians that can exacerbate misinformation.

Overall, most Asians have put community needs over their individual freedoms. They’ve also trusted their governments, although many of those governments have also used incentives, such as lifting restrictions for the fully vaccinated."

Interesting conclusion: no Fox News or Newsmax leads to a healthier population.



  • pkjh
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Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #88 on: October 01, 2021, 09:09:17 am »
Interesting comparison/update:
"South Korea, Japan and Malaysia have administered more doses per 100 people than the U.S., a pace that seemed unthinkable in the spring.

Vaccines have helped keep most South Koreans out of the hospital. Among fully vaccinated people who contracted Covid there, about 0.6 percent had severe illness and about 0.1 percent died, according to the country’s Disease Control and Prevention Agency.

In Japan, serious cases have fallen by half over the last month, to a little over 1,000 a day. Hospitalizations plummeted from a high of just over 230,000 in late August to around 31,000 on Tuesday.

The turnabout, my colleagues Sui-Lee Wee, Damien Cave and Ben Dooley write, is as much a testament to the region’s success in securing supplies as it is to some Americans’ vaccine hesitancy and political opposition.

Vaccines are not polarizing in the Asia-Pacific region. Movements against them have been relatively small, without the sympathetic news media, advocacy groups and politicians that can exacerbate misinformation.

Overall, most Asians have put community needs over their individual freedoms. They’ve also trusted their governments, although many of those governments have also used incentives, such as lifting restrictions for the fully vaccinated."

Interesting conclusion: no Fox News or Newsmax leads to a healthier population.
I think memory has a huge factor. Most Americans don't remember when common diseases, that can be eliminated by vaccines, were a problem. However, in large parts of Asia, it's still an issue. And in South Korea like up to the late-80s lots of people were still getting preventable diseases. People here were still getting measles, and the mumps up to the 2000s.


  • CO2
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Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #89 on: October 01, 2021, 09:18:39 am »
It's one thing to say "They didn't get vacced, what did they think would happen" and another to say "HEH, thinning the herd."

Do you relish the thought of people getting hit by cars for not having looked both ways?

Again, people should get jabbed but to take delight in their death makes you look like a piece of 똥.


Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #90 on: October 01, 2021, 11:16:31 am »
Ah, I think you thought the chart referred only to black voters. It's total population, fully vaccinated. The new stats refer to people who've received at least one shot, but even when you look at those who are fully vaxxed, black Americans are a few percentage points behind whites (though by all accounts race isn't recorded for every dosage, so these are really just estimates). The point is, being a Trump voter is a stronger determinant of being unvaccinated than being black.
But being a Trump voter is NOT a strong determinant amongst black people, suggesting something else is at play.

My guess is education and/or religious service attendance is more strongly correlated.


Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #91 on: October 01, 2021, 11:22:29 am »
Interesting conclusion: no Fox News or Newsmax leads to a healthier population.
If that's what you conclude after reading that, that's a shocking lack of critical thinking skills, scientific acumen, and reading comprehension.

For starters, if there's something we can all agree on, it's that the Korean media has an absence of sensationalist, irresponsible partisan journalism.  :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: October 01, 2021, 11:26:07 am by Mr.DeMartino »


  • Mr C
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Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #92 on: October 01, 2021, 12:59:33 pm »
But being a Trump voter is NOT a strong determinant amongst black people, suggesting something else is at play.


Uh:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/04/what-about-black-people-defense-republican-vaccine-hesitancy/



Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #93 on: October 01, 2021, 01:28:38 pm »
Uh:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/04/what-about-black-people-defense-republican-vaccine-hesitancy/
Again, this doesn't contradict my point- That the level of vaccine hesitancy amongst black people is not in line with black partisanship, thus in their case, there is something beyond simply "being Trump supporters". Amongst white people? Yes, there is a very strong correlation. It's fair to say that white people not getting vaxxed are overwhelmingly Trump supporters. It is not fair to say that Americans who aren't getting vaxxed are overwhelmingly Trump supporters.

If you say "It's all because of Trump supporters", then you won't be able to understand the issue regarding black Americans who are not getting vaxxed.

As far as Latinos, their numbers appear in line with Trump supporters, though I wonder about the partisan breakdown amongst Latinos not getting vaxxed because I suspect in both the Latino and black communities, education and religious intensity is a significant factor and strongly religious blacks and Latinos have much less of a partisan split than white Americans (and something that Democrats should point out when the GOP panders and plays identity politics by falsely claiming the Dems are a "godless" party)


  • Mr C
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Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #94 on: October 01, 2021, 01:38:42 pm »
Again, this doesn't contradict my point- That the level of vaccine hesitancy amongst black people is not in line with black partisanship, thus in their case, there is something beyond simply "being Trump supporters". Amongst white people? Yes, there is a very strong correlation. It's fair to say that white people not getting vaxxed are overwhelmingly Trump supporters. It is not fair to say that Americans who aren't getting vaxxed are overwhelmingly Trump supporters.

If you say "It's all because of Trump supporters", then you won't be able to understand the issue regarding black Americans who are not getting vaxxed.

As far as Latinos, their numbers appear in line with Trump supporters, though I wonder about the partisan breakdown amongst Latinos not getting vaxxed because I suspect in both the Latino and black communities, education and religious intensity is a significant factor and strongly religious blacks and Latinos have much less of a partisan split than white Americans (and something that Democrats should point out when the GOP panders and plays identity politics by falsely claiming the Dems are a "godless" party)

Someone missed the point here, but it wasn't me.


  • Adel
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Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #95 on: October 01, 2021, 02:02:51 pm »
Again, this doesn't contradict my point- That the level of vaccine hesitancy amongst black people is not in line with black partisanship, thus in their case, there is something beyond simply "being Trump supporters". Amongst white people? Yes, there is a very strong correlation. It's fair to say that white people not getting vaxxed are overwhelmingly Trump supporters. It is not fair to say that Americans who aren't getting vaxxed are overwhelmingly Trump supporters.

If you say "It's all because of Trump supporters", then you won't be able to understand the issue regarding black Americans who are not getting vaxxed.





Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #96 on: October 01, 2021, 02:33:43 pm »
Oh, a strawman. Never would've guessed that was coming.
What is your point? That being a Trump supporter is the biggest factor? Because that's a gross over-simplification of a much more complex issue. Did you look at education or religiosity?

Or do you accept Savant's simplistic point that the anti-vaxxers are overwhelmingly Trumpists?


  • Mr C
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Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #97 on: October 01, 2021, 03:05:26 pm »
What is your point? That being a Trump supporter is the biggest factor? Because that's a gross over-simplification of a much more complex issue. Did you look at education or religiosity?

Or do you accept Savant's simplistic point that the anti-vaxxers are overwhelmingly Trumpists?

It defies every bit of the available evidence to suggest there is not a massive partisan divide on Covid vaccination--only an imbecile or the intentionally obtuse would try to.

And furthermore that Trump supporters lead all other political demographics in vaccine refusal by a wide (and widening) margin.  No one capable of understanding a graph, like say, a statistician, would say otherwise.

As the article I pointed you to ends:  "Trying to rebut a largely partisan opposition to vaccination by blaming a historically disadvantaged group as the real problem without actually exhibiting any curiosity about the distinctions is not a real testament to intellectual rigor."

But if the shoe fits ...


  • Savant
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Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #98 on: October 01, 2021, 05:30:36 pm »
Oh look it’s Marty putting fuel again on his own straw man arguments.


Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #99 on: October 01, 2021, 06:09:21 pm »
And furthermore that Trump supporters lead all other political demographics in vaccine refusal by a wide (and widening) margin.  No one capable of understanding a graph, like say, a statistician, would say otherwise.
Okay, I will make this so simple, even you dunderheads can figure it out.

Is vegetarianism based on political ideology? (Anti-Meat)
50% of Greens (35% of the population) are vegetarian, therefore most vegetarians are Green. A TRUE statement

What is not true? That being a vegetarian is correlated with being a Green, why?

Because you have another data point

70% of Indians are not vegetarian, 30% are. However only 8% of Indians voted for the Green Party.

Now are these 30% of Indians being vegetarian, is it because they support the Green Party? Or perhaps is there another factor? Perhaps while there can be a correlation between vegetarianism and political affiliation in SOME groups, it is not prevalent in such a degree across all groups as to make it a conclusive statement.

And that is the same mistake you lot are making. Now when you remove a lot of the current political baggage, it becomes easy to see where the weaknesses in the argument are. But some people are so blinded by politics they can't do that.