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Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #120 on: October 05, 2021, 12:40:19 pm »
But we're not talking about emergency room care here, we're talking about who gets first crack at limited ICU or respiratory care.  And medical history is routinely taken.
Would you deny first crack at an ICU to someone who got HIV through drug use? How about care to someone critically injured snowboarding or base jumping? How about to someone overweight who had money but decided to eat at Wendy's everyday? Smokers? People who drink? Elderly with dementia?

If with all the others you're weighing pros and cons and feel squeamish about it, but with unvaccinated, you're like "Sure, let em die", then you've let political theater warp your morality.

On the other hand if you look at all or at least most of those and are like "Sure, F em." then at least you're consistent and you have a case to make.


Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #121 on: October 05, 2021, 12:44:02 pm »
"This started with people cheering the fact that unvaccinated people were dying"

One person. Not people.

Two. SPQR and Savant.


  • Savant
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Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #122 on: October 05, 2021, 01:21:07 pm »
Two. SPQR and Savant.

And I still don’t care if unvaccinated people continue to die for refusing the vaccine for stupid reasons.


Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #123 on: October 05, 2021, 01:36:30 pm »
And I still don’t care if unvaccinated people continue to die for refusing the vaccine for stupid reasons.
Do you think it should be the policy of hospitals to refuse treatment to the unvaccinated?


  • Savant
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Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #124 on: October 05, 2021, 01:41:53 pm »
Do you think it should be the policy of hospitals to refuse treatment to the unvaccinated?

To those who have refused to get vaccinated at the expense of the vaccinated when resources are scarce? Yes!


Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #125 on: October 05, 2021, 01:54:45 pm »
To those who have refused to get vaccinated at the expense of the vaccinated when resources are scarce? Yes!
Do you apply this standard to HIV patients who got infected through IV-drug use or unprotected sex? To overweight people? To smokers? To people who engage in dangerous or risky sports?


  • Kyndo
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Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #126 on: October 05, 2021, 01:59:13 pm »
To those who have refused to get vaccinated at the expense of the vaccinated when resources are scarce? Yes!
Basically triage: allocating resources to ensure that the maximum number of people can be saved given a limited amount of resources.
There's been a lot of discussion about the ethics of denying the unvaccinated medical treatment, and for the most parts there is agreement that no, it isn't ethical.
However, it's also been pointed out that vaccination status is a contributing factor to survivability, and should be included in the calculations of who gets a ventilator and who does not.
Of course, the argument now is how much weight it should be given.

Here's a short and sweet article written by an ethicist on this exact topic. Apologies for the source!
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/08/23/refuse-covid-treatment-unvaccinated-triage/

Do you apply this standard to HIV patients who got infected through IV-drug use or unprotected sex? To overweight people? To smokers? To people who engage in dangerous or risky sports?
The problem with these example is that these problems rarely occur in numbers that would strain a society's ability to treat them, so triage is never an issue.
I suppose that wasn't true back when AIDS epidemic occurred and effective anti-virals were thin on the ground, but the stigma of the disease was such that *all* of the infected were considered in an equally negative light.
   In most of these examples, one can see a sort of payment triage in that medical insurance costs differ depending on an individual's habits and circumstances. So in a way, yes, it sort of does apply.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2021, 02:03:56 pm by Kyndo »


Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #127 on: October 05, 2021, 02:03:19 pm »
However, it's also been pointed out that vaccination status is a contributing factor to survivability,
So is HIV and hardcore drug use. Drug addicts have higher rates of violent crime. If someone is ODing, should they get denied treatment? How about those with HIV who can spread it?


  • Kyndo
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Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #128 on: October 05, 2021, 02:05:11 pm »
So is HIV and hardcore drug use. Drug addicts have higher rates of violent crime. If someone is ODing, should they get denied treatment? How about those with HIV who can spread it?
No, because there is no scarcity of treatment. Triage isn't necessary.

However, if you're talking about covid patients with HIV and hardcore drug issues, then yes, those would probably be factored into triage calculations: they would both greatly decrease patient survivability, and would also increase risk to medical staff.


Also, I love trolley problems!
... although... I'm not certain if  the majority of psychologists would agree with some of my answers...  :sad:
« Last Edit: October 05, 2021, 02:13:33 pm by Kyndo »


Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #129 on: October 05, 2021, 02:10:04 pm »
No, because there is no scarcity of treatment. Triage isn't necessary.
Triage isn't necessary for drug ODs being taken to the ER? How about criminals who are shot during the course of criminal activity? Do they get denied treatment?

Quote
Also, I love trolley problems!

I do too. Clearly the problem is how do we kill both the unvaccinated, as well as the obese, drug addicts, AIDS patients and motorcyclists who didn't wear a helmet when they show up at the ICU? I propose that upon examination of their records, a mechanical arm holding a pillow is immediately activated and administered over the no longer considered a person's face, thereby resulting in cessation of life function within 120 seconds, freeing the unit up for someone else. We already have robot arms. And we already have pillows, so this shouldn't be too hard.


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Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #130 on: October 05, 2021, 02:10:16 pm »
Do you apply this standard to HIV patients who got infected through IV-drug use or unprotected sex? To overweight people? To smokers? To people who engage in dangerous or risky sports?

I should apply the standard to those afflicted with Strawmanitis.


Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #131 on: October 05, 2021, 02:12:00 pm »
I should apply the standard to those afflicted with Strawmanitis.
It's not a strawman. It's about a consistent set of ethical standards when administering triage. You cannot have those standards be subjective and down to YOUR individual personal preferences based on YOUR view. You have to come up with objective standards.


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Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #132 on: October 05, 2021, 02:14:54 pm »
Triage isn't necessary for drug ODs being taken to the ER? How about criminals who are shot during the course of criminal activity? Do they get denied treatment?

They do.
Some insurance policies exclude injury sustained while committing a crime.


  • Savant
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Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #133 on: October 05, 2021, 02:20:03 pm »
Do you apply this standard to HIV patients who got infected through IV-drug use or unprotected sex? To overweight people? To smokers? To people who engage in dangerous or risky sports?

This is about personal responsibility regarding Covid. Pretty sure that a person with HIV can still get vaccinated. That is what you’re asking, right?


  • Kyndo
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Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #134 on: October 05, 2021, 02:25:21 pm »
Triage isn't necessary for drug ODs being taken to the ER? How about criminals who are shot during the course of criminal activity? Do they get denied treatment?
Not if the hospital has the capacity to treat them. Otherwise, I imagine they do. 
:undecided:
This precedent is, in my opinion, why ultimately, doctors will be able to use vax status as part of their triage equations.

I do too. Clearly the problem is how do we kill both the unvaccinated, as well as the obese, drug addicts, AIDS patients and motorcyclists who didn't wear a helmet when they show up at the ICU? I propose that upon examination of their records, a mechanical arm holding a pillow is immediately activated and administered over the no longer considered a person's face, thereby resulting in cessation of life function within 120 seconds, freeing the unit up for someone else. We already have robot arms. And we already have pillows, so this shouldn't be too hard.
Nonono. You just don't allocate the resources necessary to extend their lives. Because those same resources could save multiple other lives.
No need to go waste resources hurrying the process up. That would be counter-productive, not to mention unethical.


Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #135 on: October 05, 2021, 03:55:44 pm »
They do.
Some insurance policies exclude injury sustained while committing a crime.
But the hospital will still treat them and stabilize. It's only after that they pay.


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Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #136 on: October 06, 2021, 05:30:45 am »
"Oct. 4, 2021 -- Health officials in Alaska activated the state’s emergency crisis protocols on Saturday to allow 20 medical facilities to ration care if needed.

Alaska has reported the nation’s highest COVID-19 cases per 100,000 residents in recent days, pushing the health care system to a breaking point. Three hospitals already had emergency protocols for rationing care, including Providence Alaska Medical Center in Anchorage, which is the state’s largest hospital.

“Today’s action recognizes that Alaska has an interconnected and interdependent health care system, requiring the need for activation of the state’s decision-making framework,” the state health department wrote in a statement.

Several factors led to the announcement, according to The Associated Press, including scarce medical resources, limited staff, limited bed availability and difficulty transferring patients between facilities. Fairbanks Memorial Hospital, for instance, activated its own crisis protocols on Friday due to shortages in beds, staff and monoclonal antibody treatments.

This is the first time during the pandemic that Alaska’s hospitals have been forced to make decisions about who should receive treatment and who should wait.

A team of doctors at Providence Alaska Medical Center, for instance, has been using a formula to score patients on their potential of dying and consulting with an ethicist to make decisions. In a recent case, two patients with critical COVID-19 needed to use a specialized dialysis machine. The team selected the person who was more likely to live to start dialysis. The other patient died."

It doesn't note if vaccination status was part of the decision. More than likely both were unvaccinated.


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Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #137 on: October 06, 2021, 05:32:02 am »
Two. SPQR and Savant.
Two persons, then. Still not your people generalization.


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Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #138 on: October 06, 2021, 07:08:37 am »
RE insurance and what it does and doesn't cover":

"If your partner or spouse is unvaccinated, it may cost you more in insurance fees — at least in Louisiana.

The state’s largest nonprofit health care provider, Ochsner Health, recently said that it was adding an extra charge — about $200 a month — for unvaccinated spouses and domestic partners who are covered by the company’s insurance plan.

The provider’s decision to charge extra was similar to a policy implemented by Delta Air Lines, which said that it would charge any employee who remains unvaccinated an additional $200 per month to remain on the company’s health care plan.

These employers are among the first to embrace an idea that has widely been discussed but is mired in legal uncertainty: charging unvaccinated employees more for health insurance.

Legally speaking, insurance surcharges are more complicated than simple employment mandates, which are widely considered legally sound. Federal law bars employers and insurers from charging higher prices to people with pre-existing health conditions. But the vaccine surcharges are being structured as employer “wellness” incentive programs, which are permitted under the Affordable Care Act.

Warner Thomas, the president of Ochsner Health, said medical and religious exemptions to the policy would be allowed, adding that it was not a mandate.

“The reality is the cost of treating Covid-19, particularly for patients requiring intensive inpatient care, is expensive,” he said."


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Re: US States ranked by fully vaccinated
« Reply #139 on: October 06, 2021, 07:21:30 am »

And I still don’t care if unvaccinated people continue to die for refusing the vaccine for stupid reasons.


I agree. Anti-vaxxers are like dangerous, gibbering monkeys that
put others in society at risk. That is why Facebook, Twitter et al. have
now permanently removed their deluded rantings. Also why would you
let these psychopaths make the American healthcare system (The envy
of the world.) any more expensive? I think it was Darwin that postulated
a suitable future for characters like those.