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  • gogators!
  • Waygook Lord

    • 5098

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Car prices have skyrocketed
« Reply #100 on: October 12, 2021, 06:51:11 pm »
Love the use of adjectives by the resident reactionaries--"significant, dramatic"--but am left feeling unsatisfied by the lack of factual evidence. Empty calorie posts.


Re: Car prices have skyrocketed
« Reply #101 on: October 13, 2021, 02:08:49 am »
Nononono. You're highlighting an example of a correlation and then saying "Presto! Causation!"
While CPI and the raise is certainly potentially not causation, the fact is there is neither correlation nor causation linked to minimum wage and two car families in S. Korea.

I also think it would be rather ridiculous not to see causation between minimum wage increases and the near immediate jump in food delivery fees (like pretty much the day after) considering delivery driver pay was at near-minimum wage levels and the jump meant a substantial increase in labor costs to those drivers. Like at that point it would be incumbent on one to show that there WASN'T a link.
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  • Kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • I am a geek!!

    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Car prices have skyrocketed
« Reply #102 on: October 13, 2021, 07:03:52 am »
This year's economics Nobel went to 3 dudes exploring the difference between correlation and causation, and they pretty much re-wrote the book on the effects of minimum wage hikes, etc. 

Neat! I there a link that you can recommend, or should I just do a wiki trawl?

While CPI and the raise is certainly potentially not causation, the fact is there is neither correlation nor causation linked to minimum wage and two car families in S. Korea.
Gosh no. No argument there!

I also think it would be rather ridiculous not to see causation between minimum wage increases and the near immediate jump in food delivery fees (like pretty much the day after) considering delivery driver pay was at near-minimum wage levels and the jump meant a substantial increase in labor costs to those drivers. Like at that point it would be incumbent on one to show that there WASN'T a link.
Sure, I agree, but a hike in delivery fees isn't exactly the same as country-wide inflation.  When I think of inflation, I'm thinking more in terms of aggregate Consumer Price Index increases etc.

On the other hand, food delivery services are essentially just a luxury service, not a basic good. I suspect that a raise in minimum wage would see a decrease in delivery services rather than any substantial mark-up in food prices.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 07:10:31 am by Kyndo »


Re: Car prices have skyrocketed
« Reply #103 on: October 13, 2021, 10:57:19 am »
On the other hand, food delivery services are essentially just a luxury service, not a basic good.
Well, pre-COVID. After that while not essential, with variois restrictions and curfews, they became a bit less than essential, a bit more than luxury.

Quote
I suspect that a raise in minimum wage would see a decrease in delivery services rather than any substantial mark-up in food prices
If by fewer people ordering delivery from certain places, then yes. Delivery is much more from mega franchises like KFC and Pizza Hut vs. others.

Even food prices are up. Just off the top of my head, I know a McD's QPounder has gone from 4500 to 5900 since the minimum wage hike. Similar price increases across the board. People on here are constantly complaining about high pirices on thigs that used to be much cheaper.

Again, minimum wage increases are simplistic thinking. The goal should be to increase the supply of good paying jobs, not to raise the minimum wage for menial, often short-term entry level work, which is one step away from printing money.

In this sense I am against both supply-siders and socialists.
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  • Mr C
  • The Legend

    • 2955

    • October 17, 2012, 03:00:40 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Car prices have skyrocketed
« Reply #104 on: October 13, 2021, 11:02:25 am »
Neat! I there a link that you can recommend, or should I just do a wiki trawl?


Or put "2021 economics nobel"  in google ...


  • Kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • I am a geek!!

    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Car prices have skyrocketed
« Reply #105 on: October 13, 2021, 11:10:13 am »
Or put "2021 economics nobel"  in google ...
I've done that, of course, and found some stuff myself.
I thought that you might've'd a specific source in mind, is all.  :smiley:


  • hangook77
  • The Legend

    • 4291

    • September 14, 2017, 09:10:12 am
    • Near Busan
Re: Car prices have skyrocketed
« Reply #106 on: October 13, 2021, 11:42:38 am »
Many of you don't notice things being more expensive than before and don't notice that salary doesn't go as far as it use to?  Look in front of you.  All the evidence you need. 


  • tylerthegloob
  • The Legend

    • 2826

    • September 28, 2016, 10:46:24 am
    • Busan
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Re: Car prices have skyrocketed
« Reply #107 on: October 13, 2021, 11:47:11 am »
i've never seen a black sheep. as far as i'm concerned, they don't exist
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  • hangook77
  • The Legend

    • 4291

    • September 14, 2017, 09:10:12 am
    • Near Busan
Re: Car prices have skyrocketed
« Reply #108 on: October 13, 2021, 12:03:04 pm »
I will say a good medium rate used car 10 years ago was 4 to 5 million won.  It helped many Koreans didn't want used cars.  Status symbol.  Nowadays, a lot more drive them or are willing to.  Price for a mid range decent used car can be 10 to 12 million. 

I know as I bought a car like this almost a decade ago and am still driving it.  A car of good used condition and moderate age is a joong go cha.  A really old car falling apart is called a ddong cha.  I drove a joong go cha but over 10 years is turning into a ddong cha.  Then again I do see a couple of other waygooks in my town driving a small matiz which hasn't been made in years.  (I remember those cars as my old country town had those da bang coffee shops and some stocky guy drove the girls around in them as opposed to the back of a scooter like in bigger cities at the time.)


  • Kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • I am a geek!!

    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Car prices have skyrocketed
« Reply #109 on: October 13, 2021, 07:17:40 pm »
Many of you don't notice things being more expensive than before and don't notice that salary doesn't go as far as it use to?  Look in front of you.  All the evidence you need. 
What?
Is there somebody here who's saying that they don't believe that there has been inflation in Korea?

Point us in their direction and we'll beat them to death with snarky comments!


  • gogators!
  • Waygook Lord

    • 5098

    • March 16, 2016, 04:35:48 pm
    • Seoul
Re: Car prices have skyrocketed
« Reply #110 on: October 13, 2021, 08:19:15 pm »
Well, pre-COVID. After that while not essential, with variois restrictions and curfews, they became a bit less than essential, a bit more than luxury.
If by fewer people ordering delivery from certain places, then yes. Delivery is much more from mega franchises like KFC and Pizza Hut vs. others.

Even food prices are up. Just off the top of my head, I know a McD's QPounder has gone from 4500 to 5900 since the minimum wage hike. Similar price increases across the board. People on here are constantly complaining about high pirices on thigs that used to be much cheaper.

Again, minimum wage increases are simplistic thinking. The goal should be to increase the supply of good paying jobs, not to raise the minimum wage for menial, often short-term entry level work, which is one step away from printing money.

In this sense I am against both supply-siders and socialists.
It's simplistic to think of such jobs as menial.  It's honest work that is anything but easy.

What you're against is paying a fair price for a service you utilize. UPS drivers make on average better than $63,000. Why should delivery drivers in SK be paid peanuts?


Re: Car prices have skyrocketed
« Reply #111 on: October 14, 2021, 11:23:54 am »
It's simplistic to think of such jobs as menial.  It's honest work that is anything but easy.

What you're against is paying a fair price for a service you utilize. UPS drivers make on average better than $63,000. Why should delivery drivers in SK be paid peanuts?
We're talking food delivery, not shipping. Pay attention. 

You can't legislate that wveryone gets 63k a year because very soon the value of 63k ceases to be 63k.

The answer is to create jobs that pay 63k in an open market, not to mandate 63k for entry-level work.

Only a stupid person would think the second option was better than the first.

BTW any comment on your lack of data showing a correlation or causation with minimum wage in Korea and 2 car families?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2021, 11:27:28 am by Mr.DeMartino »
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  • Kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • I am a geek!!

    • March 03, 2011, 09:45:24 am
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: Car prices have skyrocketed
« Reply #112 on: October 14, 2021, 11:49:44 am »
We're talking food delivery, not shipping. Pay attention. 

You can't legislate that everyone gets 63k a year because very soon the value of 63k ceases to be 63k.

The answer is to create jobs that pay 63k in an open market, not to mandate 63k for entry-level work.

One could get around this entire issue by mandating that everybody gets there basic necessities provided to them, the funds for which you would get by taxing the bejeezus out of luxury sales.
It's pretty extreme, but it would be very equitable: everybody rich or poor, gets free (very) basic food, shelter, and medical. Anything beyond that would be purchased using their incomes.

Doubt we'll see anything like this in the States in the near future, where wealth disparity is disturbingly high and is continuing to increase.  :sad:


  • tylerthegloob
  • The Legend

    • 2826

    • September 28, 2016, 10:46:24 am
    • Busan
    more
Re: Car prices have skyrocketed
« Reply #113 on: October 14, 2021, 12:12:07 pm »
One could get around this entire issue by mandating that everybody gets there basic necessities provided to them, the funds for which you would get by taxing the bejeezus out of luxury sales.
It's pretty extreme, but it would be very equitable: everybody rich or poor, gets free (very) basic food, shelter, and medical. Anything beyond that would be purchased using their incomes.
stop youre getting me all excited
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  • hangook77
  • The Legend

    • 4291

    • September 14, 2017, 09:10:12 am
    • Near Busan
Re: Car prices have skyrocketed
« Reply #114 on: October 14, 2021, 12:29:08 pm »
What?
Is there somebody here who's saying that they don't believe that there has been inflation in Korea?

Point us in their direction and we'll beat them to death with snarky comments!

Knock yourself out!  Have at it.


  • hangook77
  • The Legend

    • 4291

    • September 14, 2017, 09:10:12 am
    • Near Busan
Re: Car prices have skyrocketed
« Reply #115 on: October 14, 2021, 12:34:01 pm »
feel for you guys  if 2.1 is still what they're paying. seriously consider coming back home or another country if they're actually paying more.

I know in Canada there is a labour shortages in general and a good opportunity to demand better pay .



Smart choice.  If your total salary ,excluding housing, is under 3, you are definately losing.   And even then you are still slipping slightly. 


Re: Car prices have skyrocketed
« Reply #116 on: October 14, 2021, 01:05:16 pm »
It's pretty extreme, but it would be very equitable: everybody rich or poor, gets free (very) basic food, shelter, and medical. Anything beyond that would be purchased using their incomes.
We already have that.  They're called housing projects, food stamps and Medicaid. Far from generating upward mobility, it creates sustained poverty.

The single-biggest spike in African-American upward mobility occurred with blacks migrating north and getting factory jobs that paid good money (smaller booms include those such as black longshoremen in coastal towns, black rail workers, etc.). What hasn't worked? Raising the minimum wage, housing projects, food stamps and Medicaid.

That's not to say those programs shouldn't exist or that NHS is a bad idea, simply that those things will not enable a rise out of poverty.  Again, the answer is the creation of conditions that result in a large pool of good paying jobs (especially for labor that doesn't require higher education, though there should also be such jobs for the new H.S. grad- The liberal arts major with an undergrad degree), not benefits or a raised minimum wage.

It's treating the symptoms vs. curing the underlying disease.
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  • tylerthegloob
  • The Legend

    • 2826

    • September 28, 2016, 10:46:24 am
    • Busan
    more
Re: Car prices have skyrocketed
« Reply #117 on: October 14, 2021, 01:51:16 pm »
those things will not enable a rise out of poverty
what.

how could it be possible that "everybody gets their basic necessities provided to them" but people are impoverished?
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  • tylerthegloob
  • The Legend

    • 2826

    • September 28, 2016, 10:46:24 am
    • Busan
    more
Re: Car prices have skyrocketed
« Reply #118 on: October 14, 2021, 01:52:48 pm »
If your total salary ,excluding housing, is under 3, you are definately losing.   And even then you are still slipping slightly. 
your base salary, excluding housing, overtime, and renewal bonuses, is under 3. feelsbad. i guess that's why you're heading to china next year
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  • hangook77
  • The Legend

    • 4291

    • September 14, 2017, 09:10:12 am
    • Near Busan
Re: Car prices have skyrocketed
« Reply #119 on: October 14, 2021, 02:12:47 pm »
your base salary, excluding housing, overtime, and renewal bonuses, is under 3. feelsbad. i guess that's why you're heading to china next year

Close.  But the overtime is gauranteed every year for now.  Many hakwons and SMOE don't pay the renewal bonuses and mutliple school allowances.  So, I am in the low 3's excluding housing.  Everything else I do get paid as cash either every month or 2 or 3 times a year.  If my total pay per year were the equivilent of less than 3 per month (excluding housing), then yes, I would be gone.