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  • Savant
  • The Legend

    • 3473

    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: The PC Police now want to cancel the fighting Irish mascot.
« Reply #200 on: September 17, 2021, 07:53:13 am »
If I am "driven" to spend a whole weekend binge-watching Netflix, which animal nature am I exhibiting?


  • Savant
  • The Legend

    • 3473

    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: The PC Police now want to cancel the fighting Irish mascot.
« Reply #201 on: September 17, 2021, 07:55:48 am »
Personally, I think the dichotomy between human and animal nature is a false one.
"Animal nature" isn't some monolithic thing that all animals follow. Each and every species behaves differently according to its very different nature. Human nature is distinct and separate from that of others, but then, so is Scarabaeus viettei nature, or Ambystoma mexicanum nature.

   It's totally valid to point out traits that humans exhibit that differ from all other animals, but it's not particularly beneficial to forget that we are just one of a myriad, and that there's nothing inherently special about our neurological and behavioural wiring insofar that every species is special in the same way.

 Nietzsche out.

Great summary!


  • Kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • I am a geek!!

    • March 02, 2027, 11:00:00 pm
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: The PC Police now want to cancel the fighting Irish mascot.
« Reply #202 on: September 17, 2021, 09:14:37 am »
If I am "driven" to spend a whole weekend binge-watching Netflix, which animal nature am I exhibiting?
Sloth.   ;D


  • Savant
  • The Legend

    • 3473

    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: The PC Police now want to cancel the fighting Irish mascot.
« Reply #203 on: September 17, 2021, 09:50:02 am »
Sloth.   ;D

That common ancestral linkage between humans and sloths. Before we discovered the ground, humans spent thousands of years chilling out in trees.


  • Kyndo
  • Moderator LVL 1

    • I am a geek!!

    • March 02, 2027, 11:00:00 pm
    • Gyeongsangbuk-do
Re: The PC Police now want to cancel the fighting Irish mascot.
« Reply #204 on: September 17, 2021, 11:06:24 am »
That common ancestral linkage between humans and sloths. Before we discovered the ground, humans spent thousands of years chilling out in trees.
Please, you're ruining the joke by taking it seriously.  :cry:


Re: The PC Police now want to cancel the fighting Irish mascot.
« Reply #205 on: September 17, 2021, 11:22:03 am »
Humans are driven by an innate consciousness; awareness of past, present and future and a desire to understand our own existence and place in this universe. These traits are not derived or driven by animal nature.
What scientific basis for this, and what exactly in the current state of affairs as well as the past 200,000 of homo sapiens being on the Earth makes you think that is true?

Much of what drives people and generates outcomes is due to reactions to chemical impulses, genetics, things that happened during their formative years before their brains fully developed, subconscious and unconscious actions, and their brain reacting to chemicals released by their glands.


Re: The PC Police now want to cancel the fighting Irish mascot.
« Reply #206 on: September 17, 2021, 11:28:37 am »
If I am "driven" to spend a whole weekend binge-watching Netflix, which animal nature am I exhibiting?
Responding to endorphins and dopamine. The images on the TV trigger the release of certain chemicals thanks to certain visual triggers that exist in our species or developed during our formative years. Seeing things happen releases those chemicals, which your brain becomes addicted to.

In many cases, people have trouble distinguishing at an unconscious (subconscious?) level what is real and what isn't on TV. Hence why many people will speak of things on TV as "real" even when consciously they know they are not. This belief in its realness will affect them subtly.

Look at the people who were in a complete state during Trump's 4 years in office vs. people who didn't have any interest in politics. If you looked at how each group perceived the world, it would be vastly different. One group thought we were living in Germany 1936, the other in America 2016. What was the difference? Exposure to traditional media and social media and it's endorphin-dopamine bombardment on the topic. (Of course they could be thinking the world revolves around Cardi B or the New York Jets, but that's something different)


  • Savant
  • The Legend

    • 3473

    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: The PC Police now want to cancel the fighting Irish mascot.
« Reply #207 on: September 17, 2021, 11:36:45 am »
What scientific basis for this, and what exactly in the current state of affairs as well as the past 200,000 of homo sapiens being on the Earth makes you think that is true?

Much of what drives people and generates outcomes is due to reactions to chemical impulses, genetics, things that happened during their formative years before their brains fully developed, subconscious and unconscious actions, and their brain reacting to chemicals released by their glands.

Biologists tell me this. All youíve stated is that we havenít evolved beyond our baser animal instincts which is madness.


Re: The PC Police now want to cancel the fighting Irish mascot.
« Reply #208 on: September 17, 2021, 11:56:58 am »
Biologists tell me this. All youíve stated is that we havenít evolved beyond our baser animal instincts which is madness.
1) That's not a biological statement. What biologist? Your H.S. biology teacher who was waxing poetic about human nature?

2) i said we are still largely driven by animal instincts. If you think the human brain and how it views thing is 90% human and 10% animal, you've got those percentages way off.

For some people, this whole concept really bothers them. It runs up against their sense of self and their view of the world. Doesn't matter to them that it's true, the idea of it disgusts them.

Ironically this shows their animal nature- driven by impulses and subconscious stuff that developed during their childhood, rather than embracing scientific truth.


  • Savant
  • The Legend

    • 3473

    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: The PC Police now want to cancel the fighting Irish mascot.
« Reply #209 on: September 17, 2021, 12:58:13 pm »
1) That's not a biological statement. What biologist? Your H.S. biology teacher who was waxing poetic about human nature?

2) i said we are still largely driven by animal instincts. If you think the human brain and how it views thing is 90% human and 10% animal, you've got those percentages way off.

For some people, this whole concept really bothers them. It runs up against their sense of self and their view of the world. Doesn't matter to them that it's true, the idea of it disgusts them.

Ironically this shows their animal nature- driven by impulses and subconscious stuff that developed during their childhood, rather than embracing scientific truth.

What animal instincts are we primarily driven by?

Please give a precise figure as to the actual animal-to-human brain percentage as used by the human brain backed up by scientific proof.


Re: The PC Police now want to cancel the fighting Irish mascot.
« Reply #210 on: September 17, 2021, 01:09:53 pm »
1) That's not a biological statement. What biologist? Your H.S. biology teacher who was waxing poetic about human nature?

2) i said we are still largely driven by animal instincts. If you think the human brain and how it views thing is 90% human and 10% animal, you've got those percentages way off.

For some people, this whole concept really bothers them. It runs up against their sense of self and their view of the world. Doesn't matter to them that it's true, the idea of it disgusts them.

Ironically this shows their animal nature- driven by impulses and subconscious stuff that developed during their childhood, rather than embracing scientific truth.

Your first problem is that you call it 'animal' instinct. This already implies that instinct is, originally, animalistic when in fact it is just instinct. Perhaps you could call it 'Life Instinct' as the instinct to survive, grow and procreate governs all life.

Next, you ignore the fundamental difference that makes humans completely unique. You can't argue that we're the same by focusing on similarities; humans have eyes at the front of their heads, so do monkeys. This doesn't mean we're related to monkeys but rather that eyes at the front of the head are the most sensible evolutionary design for a species engaged in specific activities. If humans and animals share the same environment, they'll evolve in similar ways.

Finally, the fundamental difference between animals and humans, the ability to control, suppress, channel and even go against our instinct. The lion's instinct tells it to mate so it'll find a female, kill her cubs so she goes into estrus and mate. A human male while have the same instinct but, ideally, will find a socially acceptable way to channel or fulfil it. We are driven by instinct, but we spend our lives learning how to control it. No other species has this ability.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 01:11:51 pm by Aristocrat »


Re: The PC Police now want to cancel the fighting Irish mascot.
« Reply #211 on: September 17, 2021, 01:10:19 pm »
What animal instincts are we primarily driven by?
The need to procreate, the need to eat, the need for safety, the need to rear our offspring, the need to be territorially secure, the need to fit well into the herd/colony or whatever sizable social group we have.

Look at how much of our day/society is in service of those basic animal needs.


  • Savant
  • The Legend

    • 3473

    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: The PC Police now want to cancel the fighting Irish mascot.
« Reply #212 on: September 17, 2021, 01:18:08 pm »
The need to procreate, the need to eat, the need for safety, the need to rear our offspring, the need to be territorially secure, the need to fit well into the herd/colony or whatever sizable social group we have.

Look at how much of our day/society is in service of those basic animal needs.

Lots of people don't want to have children.
Lots of people have the ability to and choose to fast.
Safety? Don't see that instinct used by most of Koreans here.
Offspring? See point 1.
Territory? You mean like "Get off my f@cking lawn!"
Herd mentality? Definitely Korean but also there is such a thing as individuality.

That was an absolute shocker of an explanation. Leave this discussion to scientists cause you've shown that you're way out of your depth in this discussion.


Re: The PC Police now want to cancel the fighting Irish mascot.
« Reply #213 on: September 17, 2021, 01:26:09 pm »
Your first problem is that you call it 'animal' instinct. This already implies that instinct is, originally, animalistic when in fact it is just instinct. Perhaps you could call it 'Life Instinct' as the instinct to survive, grow and procreate governs all life.

Next, you ignore the fundamental difference that makes humans completely unique. You can't argue that we're the same by focusing on similarities; humans have eyes at the front of their heads, so do monkeys. This doesn't mean we're related to monkeys but rather that eyes at the front of the head are the most sensible evolutionary design for a species engaged in specific activities. If humans and animals share the same environment, they'll evolve in similar ways.
Well it actually sounds like we're closer on this than farther apart. First, I'd agree with the life/animal/instinct instinct and whatever term is used for it, it applies. I also said that I think humans are based on animal instinct (or whatever term) and that when talking about stuff that is scientifically based, rather than philosophically based, then I think the 'animal' stuff applies much more and is more strongly rooted because more and more science is pushing humans and animals to being closer and showing how much of our behavior is driven by certain physical factors rather than some sort of ephemeral consciousness. I do agree that distinction is important and there are reasons we are not monkeys, but if you look at primate behavior and human behavior there are clear links. Now we certainly have key differences as well, but is that human or simply us responding to our environment for survival?

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Finally, the fundamental difference between animals and humans, the ability to control, suppress and channel instinct. The lion's instinct tells it to mate so it'll find a female, kill her cubs so she goes into estrus and mate. A human male while have the same instinct but, ideally, will find a socially acceptable way to channel or fulfil it. We are driven by instinct, but we spend our lives learning how to control it.
That is true, but we also often succumb to it, although often these are in relatively benign ways, though some can be more serious (i.e., eating certain foods, risky casual sex, drug and alcohol addiction, taking a nap vs. doing some work, etc.). And then we get to the subtle stuff where we get influenced by our chemical impulses and such.

Anyways, the context for this was my statement that "Any party in charge will attempt to draw districts that are favorable to them. This is human nature." To which gogators! responded that I was confusing animal nature with human nature.

To clarify,
1) Yes, any part in charge WILL try to draw things favorably to them. This IS human nature. It happens in country after country. Believing that there is some "pure party" out there that wouldn't do this is fantasy.
2) Yes, animals are territorial. and fight over the best territory. So do humans. We have done this every year of our existence. We do it in small ways- On the bus, at the cafeteria, at any open seating venue, etc.


Re: The PC Police now want to cancel the fighting Irish mascot.
« Reply #214 on: September 17, 2021, 01:35:15 pm »
Lots of people don't want to have children.
Lots of people still want to f*ck though. That's biology seeping through. As for wanting or not wanting children, often this is due to the impact child rearing would have on resources and the limited resources out there, which would be a biological response to conditions.

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Lots of people have the ability to and choose to fast.
Yes, like animals, humans will have periods of intake and periods where they might not intake or even forgo consumption.

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Safety? Don't see that instinct used by most of Koreans here.
Always comes back to Korea. That's your animalistic tribal nature. Anyways, Koreans often respond instinctually to safety, not to abstract safety.

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Offspring? See point 1.
Even those without children, as part of the herd/colony, take concern in the care and upbringing of offspring and believe that they are responsible to some degree.

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Territory? You mean like "Get off my f@cking lawn!"
Like the nonstop conflicts humanity has had for 200,000 years?

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Herd mentality? Definitely Korean but also there is such a thing as individuality.
The fact that you think the herd mentality is some "Korean thing" and not something that also affects you, shows how seriously flawed your concept of human nature is.

You're deluded if you think this stuff only applies to certain peoples but not yourself. In fact, as I said, this is why you are so against this- It goes against your view of the world and your view of self. It's not based on whether any of it is true or not, your objection is based on it being offensive to your ego. You want to believe that you are "elevated" and that there are "elevated" people, but this isn't based on science or reason. It's based on superstition and ego.

If you truly valued science and weren't driven by ego, you'd have no problem accepting this to at least some extent. You'd simply look at it as true to some extent or another and accept it. You might debate the boundaries but you'd agree that there is some level of animal nature in human nature.

You certainly wouldn't make it about ethnicity/nationality and randomly throw "Korean" into it.



Re: The PC Police now want to cancel the fighting Irish mascot.
« Reply #215 on: September 17, 2021, 01:39:48 pm »
Seriously, why the need to bring 'Koreans' into this? This was a conversation about human nature, biology, philosophy, etc. Why single out a certain people? Are you suggesting that Koreans aren't fully human? Are you suggesting that they are less evolved? What exactly are you basing all of this on? Furthermore, it seems your concepts of "safety" are rather arbitrary. Likewise with "herd mentality." You just throw those out without basis.

You're telling ME to "leave this to the scientists" when your argument is basically that of a child's?

Take a look at VanIslander and Aristocrat if you want examples of how to discuss this topic like an adult and not a teenager.


Re: The PC Police now want to cancel the fighting Irish mascot.
« Reply #216 on: September 17, 2021, 02:46:05 pm »
To clarify,
1) Yes, any part in charge WILL try to draw things favorably to them. This IS human nature. It happens in country after country. Believing that there is some "pure party" out there that wouldn't do this is fantasy.
2) Yes, animals are territorial. and fight over the best territory. So do humans. We have done this every year of our existence. We do it in small ways- On the bus, at the cafeteria, at any open seating venue, etc.

Plants attempt to outcompete other plants for nutrients and sunlight, just as humans compete for resources and mates and animals compete for territory, mates and resources. It's life, not animal/human behaviour.

I disregard biological adaptation to prove the point that animals and humans have some kind of link because it simply isn't true.
If the above were true either fish would move around using two legs instead of fins, or humans would move around using fins. Since this isn't the case, and there are countless other examples to prove the point, we can only conclude that organisms evolve to the demands of the environment and if they both happen to live on land and need to travel large distances, both species will likely evolve to have legs and feet. The fact that we share similar biological features of primates simply means that two eyes, a nose and a mouth at the front of the face is the logical design choice for creatures in the same physical environment doing the same thing.

To summarise, I'm saying that the fact that humans share certain physical and behavioural characteristics with animals is not enough to argue that there exists some evolutionary link, it simply means that these physical and behavioural characteristics are the most intelligent design/the natural behavioural path all species follow to find a strong mate, propagate and raise strong young. The fact that most vehicles on the road have wheels doesn't mean all vehicles are cars, but rather that the wheel is the logical design to travel on a flat surface.

Since Scientists are unable to prove or agree on the origin of life we can't exclude a Philosophical or Religious explanation.


  • Savant
  • The Legend

    • 3473

    • April 07, 2012, 11:35:31 pm
Re: The PC Police now want to cancel the fighting Irish mascot.
« Reply #217 on: September 17, 2021, 03:32:42 pm »

You might debate the boundaries but you'd agree that there is some level of animal nature in human nature.


That has not been your argument though. No-one has argued against the characteristics of finding aspects of animal nature in human nature.

You have moved from "rooted in" to "some level". So, which is it?


i said we are still largely driven by animal instincts. If you think the human brain and how it views thing is 90% human and 10% animal, you've got those percentages way off.

Can you give us the actual percentages?

« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 04:30:06 pm by Savant »