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Re: The "I quit" trend: why 85% of Americans hate their jobs and 4M have quit
« Reply #100 on: November 05, 2021, 02:17:01 pm »
Probably obtained parental consent for the data, same as any other K-12 data. But yes, it is an assumption. However, with nothing else to go on, and IQ tests generally being administered while young, and assuming that any study corrected for such factors, then we have to call into question the "East Asian testing" explanation.

It's not THAT unheard of in the West. Go into more affluent, educated areas and you'll see this to some extent. It's also probably overstated in East Asia. Does it happen? Sure. Are all the kids getting relentlessly drilled in standardized math tests? No.

Why anyone makes a big deal over East Asian IQ one way or the other is beyond me. Isn't the average score only like 2 points higher or something? That might as well be statistical noise. No reason for East Asians to toot their horn over it and no reason for Westerners to freak out over it and going "It's all because they love tests!!!!!!!!"

We create our opinions based on experiences, data and information observed and learned. Among other things, I've formulated the opinion that the countries which invest the most amount of time into standardised written tests score the highest national average in IQ scores. The testing culture is pretty much exclusive to China, Korea, Japan, Singapore and Taiwan, who all find themselves in the top 5 or top 10. I believe there's a positive correlation between IQ scores and time spent with written test, in the way the countries in question do. Those are my beliefs and I'm not prepared to convince you to believe in them.

I don't put much stock into IQ scores, unless it's on the extreme ends.

Another study, can't remember where it was, showed:

Japanese students scored high on their competence when it came to solving maths problems, but low on their level of confidence to do the problems (before and after the test).

American students scored low on their competence when it came to doing the maths problems, but high in their level of confidence both before and after the test.

There's more to digest than Americans are simply proud of being dumb. Confidence is a belief that one has the ability to perform a task well and it's something other's can see. Confidence and charisma are extremely valuable social skills and in may cases, prove more successful than competence, enter the stereotype of the quiet, nerdy Asian guy crunching numbers in his cubicle while his white friend is charming everyone around him and getting the promotion.

It's a bit like the myth of the lonely Western athlete going up against the farmed, factoried & laboratoried athletes of the Soviet bloc and East Asia. "We don't send our kids to state-run athlete mills. We just send them to high schools that get massive donations for their sports programs, corporate sponsorships, then send them to state-funded universities with massive endowments for their athletics. We're pure!"

Sporting pride and culture has always been important in the US. The US is also a 1st world country, arguably the most powerful 1st world country, and 1st world countries have plenty of money to throw to schools for what was incredibly important to the US long before the Soviets, Germans or the Chinese became a threat.

You absolutely can NOT compare state sponsored training in China to the US.

The athletics paradigm of the US might be intense, cut-throat, exploitative and competitive
...but
It is not slavery and torture


  • Kyndo
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Re: The "I quit" trend: why 85% of Americans hate their jobs and 4M have quit
« Reply #101 on: November 05, 2021, 02:39:59 pm »
Right, but you said they were taught from early-on.
Most elementary students aren't taking pre-suneung tests.
IQ is usually evaluated very early in children. Generally between 5 and 8 years old.
Not sure I really see the evidence to support the notion that East Asian testing culture is the reason for IQ scores in East Asia in 5-8 year olds.

Apologies, but I'm not entirely certain what you're disagreeing with, exactly.

Are you disputing that East Asia has a long and cherished tradition of test taking?
   They do. It's been a big part of Confucian culture for oodles and oodles of years. The public school system that the Japanese brought during their colonization of the peninsula only reinforced that tradition.

Do the kiddos constantly write test after test after test in preparation for their uni entrance exam? Well, no. I of course agree that they don't.
  But there *is* more of it than back home. The West is gradually weaning itself away from its reliance on standardized tests (the Scandinavian models are trending in educational methodology). Korean (and other East Asian countries like Singapore, Japan etc) haven't experienced the same movement.
  I think that while we might disagree about the extent of the difference, I think it's pretty safe to say that East Asian nations objectively rely more on standardized tests than the average Western country, including during early childhood education.


Here's a research article
that highlights this education-culture phenomenon.
  The take-away is, in my opinion, this excerpt from the introduction:

"The phenomenon of standardized testing is not new and unique to our nation. It is being
practiced around the world, especially in East Asia... ...since 605 A.D. It is
therefore important to look at the examples from other countries and learn from their experiences. In
this paper, the author will identify some of the issues with standardized testing and its future impacts by
analyzing the standardized testing practices in China, Korea, Japan, and Taiwan.
"


Just as an aside, I'm interested in your statement that student IQs are ascertained at that early age. That seems wayyyy too young for any kind of meaningful IQ assessment.
I've been thinking more about the IQ tests and standardized tests given out during middle school and high-school.


  • T_Rex
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Re: The "I quit" trend: why 85% of Americans hate their jobs and 4M have quit
« Reply #102 on: January 02, 2022, 11:16:17 pm »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waIsIZrrKtM

1) People who voluntarily quit don't qualify for unemployment benefits. So it's not like people are quitting so that they can watch Netflix all day while the government supports them financially.
2) Many workers think they can find better positions at other companies. Workers are more willing to take risks when there are more opportunites out there.
3) People are retiring at younger ages. Two million more people than expected over the age of 55 have retired since 2020.
4) According to one survey, 4% of the US labor force has made enough money trading Crypto to quit their jobs.
5) There has been a huge increase in the number of people starting their own businesses.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2022, 11:22:11 pm by T_Rex »


  • hangook77
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Re: The "I quit" trend: why 85% of Americans hate their jobs and 4M have quit
« Reply #103 on: January 03, 2022, 12:06:03 pm »
We create our opinions based on experiences, data and information observed and learned. Among other things, I've formulated the opinion that the countries which invest the most amount of time into standardised written tests score the highest national average in IQ scores. The testing culture is pretty much exclusive to China, Korea, Japan, Singapore and Taiwan, who all find themselves in the top 5 or top 10. I believe there's a positive correlation between IQ scores and time spent with written test, in the way the countries in question do. Those are my beliefs and I'm not prepared to convince you to believe in them.

I don't put much stock into IQ scores, unless it's on the extreme ends.

Another study, can't remember where it was, showed:

Japanese students scored high on their competence when it came to solving maths problems, but low on their level of confidence to do the problems (before and after the test).

American students scored low on their competence when it came to doing the maths problems, but high in their level of confidence both before and after the test.

There's more to digest than Americans are simply proud of being dumb. Confidence is a belief that one has the ability to perform a task well and it's something other's can see. Confidence and charisma are extremely valuable social skills and in may cases, prove more successful than competence, enter the stereotype of the quiet, nerdy Asian guy crunching numbers in his cubicle while his white friend is charming everyone around him and getting the promotion.

Sporting pride and culture has always been important in the US. The US is also a 1st world country, arguably the most powerful 1st world country, and 1st world countries have plenty of money to throw to schools for what was incredibly important to the US long before the Soviets, Germans or the Chinese became a threat.

You absolutely can NOT compare state sponsored training in China to the US.

The athletics paradigm of the US might be intense, cut-throat, exploitative and competitive
...but
It is not slavery and torture

Test scores mean nothing just an ability to regurgitate and memorize.  Those folks can often color in the lines and can often be rigid obeying every rule.  Sometimes, you gotta break a few rules, take a few risks, and think outside the box.  Some of the most intelligent people often had the most mediocre scores becasue they didn't like studying and regurgitating a textbook.  But boy, when faced with a problem or a crises, they can think on theior feet and put forward ideas, plans, solutions, etc.  The most intelligent people like msot people often learn best by doing anyhow.  On the job training rather than listen to a boring lecture, etc.  It's how they perform in the field and also how much info they retain in general.  Including in real life as the internet is a hodge podge of info at ones fingertips. 
745sticky, Augustiner, Bakeacake, D.L.Orean, Lazio, Mithras, Renma, Rye are still blocked and I can't see them.


Re: The "I quit" trend: why 85% of Americans hate their jobs and 4M have quit
« Reply #104 on: January 03, 2022, 04:59:18 pm »
Apologies, but I'm not entirely certain what you're disagreeing with, exactly.

Are you disputing that East Asia has a long and cherished tradition of test taking?
   They do. It's been a big part of Confucian culture for oodles and oodles of years. The public school system that the Japanese brought during their colonization of the peninsula only reinforced that tradition.
No, but I'm disputing how impactful that would be statistically.

Quote
Just as an aside, I'm interested in your statement that student IQs are ascertained at that early age. That seems wayyyy too young for any kind of meaningful IQ assessment.
I've been thinking more about the IQ tests and standardized tests given out during middle school and high-school.
While IQ can change, it is measured fairly early on. I remember that mine was done pretty early on and in part motivated my parents to switch elementary schools.

Of course they have their limitations, but come on, you aren't blitzing the math section on the SAT or getting a high IQ test score simply by being a moron but knowing testing strategies (which in and of themselves require problem-solving skills)


Re: The "I quit" trend: why 85% of Americans hate their jobs and 4M have quit
« Reply #105 on: January 03, 2022, 05:09:51 pm »
Test scores mean nothing just an ability to regurgitate and memorize.
Uhm, that's not how most good standardized tests work. A lot of times they DO measure both skills and a measure of intelligence.

It's been my experience that people who claim this were only of average or modestly above average intelligence and ability. They just overrate themselves and then lash out at tests as to blame for their modest station in life. The fact is the reason you struggled on the test and got an average score is, well, you're of average intelligence. Great effort can improve your score and you can be lazy and your score can go down, even though you're bright, but generally, it's going to hit a certain approximation.

Quote
Some of the most intelligent people often had the most mediocre scores becasue they didn't like studying and regurgitating a textbook.  But boy, when faced with a problem or a crises, they can think on theior feet and put forward ideas, plans, solutions, etc.  The most intelligent people like msot people often learn best by doing anyhow.  On the job training rather than listen to a boring lecture, etc.  It's how they perform in the field and also how much info they retain in general.  Including in real life as the internet is a hodge podge of info at ones fingertips.
That's true to some extent.

It's also true that things like "learning by doing" and "bad plans in a crisis" and "bad test scores" also apply to people of below-average intelligence and the outright stupid. And to a far greater extent.

One mistake stupid people make is that they think because smart people did these things, and they do them as well, that therefore they are smart, when in fact stupid people do them as well and to a far greater extent and they are the apt comparison.

Of course a smart person would instantly recognize that bias potential and thinking flaw thanks to critical-thinking skills and intelligence. Stupid people would not.