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Re: ex partners
« Reply #60 on: August 21, 2021, 01:03:58 am »
If you're unable to control yourself around an ex, you definitely shouldn't be around them.  That requires maturity you obviously don't yet have. 
Individually, some people can control themselves. On a systemic level, that control rate is likely not the greatest. The rules Aristocrat discusses came about as a systemic approach for a society, not for an individual. It's like putting alcohol around a mix of people- You're going to get a whole bunch of results and not everyone is going to be that controlled.

Now the question is, do we want to take the safer approach that perhaps has less chance of some sort of added happiness or do you want to take the riskier approach? That's for each person to decide, but I'd say with something like marriage, particularly where things like the health and well-being of children being raised is potentially on the line, or even things like say, 25-50% of your income for some massive duration of your life, it might be better to let things go than to take that risk.

Everyone believes that they'll be fine with their ex and nothing will happen. Do you think everyone was successful in that outcome?

As I said earlier, if you look at traditional marriage practitioners (*who support and believe in those practices), they likely demonstrate better risk-reward decision making processes, impulse control, financial stability, and make better long-term decisions.

This whole "Still get along with your ex" likely would reflect that on average. Again, not saying there aren't exceptions, but we are talking averages.

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Re: ex partners
« Reply #61 on: August 21, 2021, 01:27:37 am »
There's no other term to use, but liberal, Western white people from dozens of broken relationships giving advice to other white people going through another relationship is like the blind leading the blind. Perhaps considering or learning just one thing from Muslim, Traditional Asian, Orthodox Jewish or Indian people's approach to marriage and relationships might be worth considering...
This. It's easy for those of us with a Western liberal mindset to see the potential problems in such marriages. We know all the stereotypes and stories. How many of us are good at looking at our own beliefs?

Because, let me tell all of you- We do NOT look good to the rest of the world. As easy as it is for us to see their problems, it is just as easy (if not easier) for them to see OUR problems. And seriously, marriage in the West has turned into a major problem.

I grew up in South Africa, where, believe it or not, white people are a thing and, on a cultural level, is generally a Western nation. I'm sure Dmart or any other person with Asian, Middle-Eastern or
even African heritage will affirm that, on a general level, there's a certain level of cluelessness about non-Western cultures that many white people tend to have.
Again, this. The level of ignorance people in the West have regarding other cultures, even among those who are "cultured" and travel is staggering.

Now as for me personally, growing up with white Western parents, in a diverse community and being of another ethnicity myself, I was able to see a lot of different perspectives. Usually people in different cultures have if not a good reason, at least A reason for doing what they do. And sometimes, shocker, their practices can be better than ours.

Now, my parents while not religious, in many ways have a very traditional marriage. They have never gotten divorced, I've never seen any outrageous arguments between them, almost no public displays of affection, they have MANY interests in common, they also know how to give themselves alone time, I've never heard them discuss anyone before they met, they both have an EXTREMELY dim view of adultery and divorce, they are very financially stable and successful, they do not make impulsive decisions, they do not have problems with addiction or abuse or a bunch of other things I have seen or heard from in many other families, and they also come from stable families that stayed together their whole lives. They share similar views on how important happiness vs. responsibility is, the role of money, the nature of the universe, the way children should be raised, and so on. Most in their circle of friends and our family (one "party first" uncle being the exception) were similarly reserved and more wholesome than hedonistic.

Again, I'd say that their attitudes and many "traditional" attitudes were often common in the West until recently.

So, if I have to choose between the examples I've seen in my life, because a fair number of my friends have tried the "get along with the ex" thing, many to negative results (and a fair number of divorces already), I have to say, that I'd go with traditional. Sure, maybe you can beat the odds, and traditional is no guarantee, but there's a reason the odds are against you.

=========================================================================================================================

(Not addressed to Aristocrat)

Seriously, what is the purpose of marriage? What does it really mean to you? Are you marrying with a vision of that person in their 70s in your mind? If you're not at least in part, you probably aren't really ready for marriage and really understanding it. Are you picturing taking care of them if they face serious or even, God forbid, terminal illness? Or even worse- long term crippling, disfiguring, costly illness. If you're not, you aren't ready for marriage and you really don't get what marriage is about.

Finding someone willing to stick with you to those points is not easy these days. And if you are lucky enough to, they deserve your utmost respect, and frankly having fun with an ex isn't worth risking that. If you are willing to risk that level of commitment for some fun coffee or brunches and reminiscing about old times and risk hurting the feelings of the person willing to commit to you like that, you really aren't thinking marriage through. Yes, you get the odd case where somehow all three people are cool, but very often one person is jealous and that suspicion and doubt lasts forever. And usually once those doubts start, they don't stop.

Finally, this isn't some test. There's nothing to prove regarding your self-control. This isn't about trying to look cool in your friend circle because you have that sitcom-style relationship with your ex. This is about who you value most and your commitment to them and being honest with yourself about why you're doing the things you're doing.

Marriage is serious. It deserves to be treated as such.


Re: ex partners
« Reply #62 on: August 21, 2021, 01:34:06 am »
I'm not sure Muslims have a great view on marriage. Not convinced any Western woman would trade places.
I think most people of traditional background, regardless of faith or culture, would probably side more with the Islamic view than the hedonistic liberal one.

Again, I don't think people realize just how bad our marriages look to the rest of the world. You have people jeopardizing the mental health of their children just because they want to f*ck someone else. Or they look old. Or they aren't making enough money. Can you believe that shit? That's just such a trash perspective. Giving up after two years because someone wants to do something that the other doesn't like for 4 hours out of the week and suddenly "They don't understand me. Our differences are irreconcilable." Millions of people unable to make long-term relationships work because of 15 years previous of a revolving door of dating. Like, wtf is wrong with us? Seriously, we have no business lecturing Muslims or anyone else on marriage.


Re: ex partners
« Reply #63 on: August 21, 2021, 10:18:02 am »
It's funny the way you caring, liberal intellectual types are quite happy to criticize white marriage culture, while  sidestepping the elephant in the room. (hint, 70% illegitimacy rate) . If  some right wing Republican came on here talking about black marriage culture and crime rates, you'd be the first to call him a wacist and claim there's no connection.


Re: ex partners
« Reply #64 on: August 21, 2021, 11:08:28 am »
I think most people of traditional background, regardless of faith or culture, would probably side more with the Islamic view than the hedonistic liberal one.

Again, I don't think people realize just how bad our marriages look to the rest of the world. You have people jeopardizing the mental health of their children just because they want to f*ck someone else. Or they look old. Or they aren't making enough money. Can you believe that shit? That's just such a trash perspective. Giving up after two years because someone wants to do something that the other doesn't like for 4 hours out of the week and suddenly "They don't understand me. Our differences are irreconcilable." Millions of people unable to make long-term relationships work because of 15 years previous of a revolving door of dating. Like, wtf is wrong with us? Seriously, we have no business lecturing Muslims or anyone else on marriage.

This man gets it.

A Korean, Pakistani, Indian, Nigerian etc. person with a more traditional mindset is going to struggle to understand the liberal, hedonistic western approach and view to dating, relationships and marriage.
Someone of non-Western heritage raised in a western country is likely going to have a good understanding of both perspectives. If they talk, listen.

From a non-western perspective the hedonistic, liberal perspective looks like 2 selfish teenagers fighting and arguing as they try to emulate the caricature of relationships they grew up watching on sitcoms and soap operas. 

As Dmart said, marriage is very serious and just like any serious undertaking, you absolutely need a plan. Koreans, Indians, Buddhists, Jews, Christians, Muslims etc. we all have a plan, guide or strategy. The liberal, western approach's
plan is... get this.... your emotions. Every relationship or marriage contract (yes, its' first an foremost a contract)  is supposed to be guided by those fickle, temperamental and selfish things we call feelings and emotions.
Liberal westerners have no plan because they were raised with no plan. 2 people governed by their feelings and emotions getting married and that's supposed to be how it's done? The couple with a strong cultural and/or Religious foundation
are the crazy ones because they're humble enough to accept that them being a pair of 27yr old pissants, they have no clue what they're getting into and could use some guidance.

I some people are simply afraid of being thought of as traditional and (backward) that you'd be willing to shoot yourself in the foot just so you can flex their perceived agency. Go hang with the Goth Kids from South Park.

BTW, my wife read some of this thread and she thinks most of you have no clue how women really think.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2021, 01:35:07 pm by Aristocrat »


Re: ex partners
« Reply #65 on: August 22, 2021, 10:02:30 am »
It's funny the way you caring, liberal intellectual types are quite happy to criticize white marriage culture, while  sidestepping the elephant in the room. (hint, 70% illegitimacy rate) . If  some right wing Republican came on here talking about black marriage culture and crime rates, you'd be the first to call him a wacist and claim there's no connection.
Uhh...the two main critics in this thread aren't white and at least when it comes to the topic, aren't very liberal (although in other ways I'm liberal about it- Let whomever or how many get married for consenting adults, if people don't want to do legal marriage whatever) but if you are going to do it, there is a way to go about it and the liberal one is NOT it. 

I don't think you'd get much disagreement with conservatives on this issue. Evangelicals and conservative Catholics don't consider themselves part of what Aristocrat has termed "white liberal marriage culture". They have similar disgust at the sitcom values and rampant adultery that seems to be pushed about and similarly dim views of divorce.

Heck, even some in liberal circles have started to change their views. Especially as people get older and perhaps experienced a failed marriage, they've come to realize that the modern dating and marriage culture is not producing good outcomes and is not really preparing people for marriage.


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  • Hero of Waygookistan

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Re: ex partners
« Reply #66 on: August 22, 2021, 10:49:48 am »
Just got off a 45 minute chat with the ex and my wife. Got caught up on all the news back in Canada, how the ex-in laws are doing. Everything is as expected with the virus thing.

People who don't get this are missing something.

People who let their lives be controlled by dogma are missing something too.


Re: ex partners
« Reply #67 on: August 22, 2021, 11:05:02 am »
I am of the opinion that "If you don't get/do (insert X thing I get/do), then you are missing something" is one of the more meaningless takes out there.

I guess in some sense it's true, I mean I'm sure I'm missing out on something by not knowing how to windsurf, but this applies to everyone because there is so much out there. Everyone is missing something by that "logic".

I really don't see any tremendous benefit being added, well, unless uh...well...hehe... The point is that it's def higher risk for something that might be rewarding kind of?


  • Liechtenstein
  • Hero of Waygookistan

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    • February 15, 2019, 04:39:00 pm
    • NE Hemisphere
Re: ex partners
« Reply #68 on: August 22, 2021, 11:17:45 am »
I am of the opinion that "If you don't get/do (insert X thing I get/do), then you are missing something" is one of the more meaningless takes out there.

I guess in some sense it's true, I mean I'm sure I'm missing out on something by not knowing how to windsurf, but this applies to everyone because there is so much out there. Everyone is missing something by that "logic".

I really don't see any tremendous benefit being added, well, unless uh...well...hehe... The point is that it's def higher risk for something that might be rewarding kind of?

What is this risk you keep going on about? Risk of what? Friendship? Or are you just so weak that being friends with an ex means you must jump into bed with them? I don't get it.


Re: ex partners
« Reply #69 on: August 22, 2021, 12:55:38 pm »
Just got off a 45 minute chat with the ex and my wife. Got caught up on all the news back in Canada, how the ex-in laws are doing. Everything is as expected with the virus thing.

People who don't get this are missing something.

People who let their lives be controlled by dogma are missing something too.

I'll say it again, you have a VERY difficult time seeing things from a different perspective, which isn't the same as being opinionated.

Your life seems to be quite unconventional and you have a different outlook (congratulations) to most. This "dogma" is to help people who want a marriage that lasts a lifetime, are probably looking to have a raise kids who will be successful and aren't looking for drama. It's not going to be of much use to someone who is proud of the fact that he can bushwhack through the jungle for days on end without telling his wife. You also don't seem to be interested in having children, so you've got a bit more room to be selfish. Your wife seems to be an exceptional woman as she invites and befriends your ex into your home. I'm no expert on woman, but I'd say she's definitely the exception.

The vast majority of men and women, whether they're willing to admit it or not, DO NOT want their partners to socialise with their ex beyond what is necessary (the ex and the spouse share children, for example). You probably don't understand this because you're the same as another white friend of mine who visited my place; I greeted him when he came in and when my wife tried to greet him with a wave, he moved in for a hug. She immediately backed away and he felt hurt, obviously under the assumption that everyone hugs when greeting. During a tour of our place, he took the liberty of opening our bedroom door to have a look. The two of you are completely clueless to cultures outside your own.

I hope you don't mind me discussing your life, but you brought up personal examples if it makes you uncomfortable I'll stop.

TO get away from the personal, I'd like to focus on this hedonistic Western mindset to marriage in general and why it's such a problem.

When you're a Muslim, or hold strongly to any other Faith and/or you live by strong cultural values that many describe as, for lack of a better word, traditional, what you deal with on a regular basis is criticism against your beliefs.

The critics usually uses words like "dogmatic", "backward", "medieval", "archaic", "oppressive",  "mindless" etc.
Beyond that, the criticism is actually quite shallow. People never properly articulate why a traditional Religious or cultural approach to something like marriage is bad other than be conjuring up stereotypes and terms used above.

Most worryingly, in the West there's an almost perverse obsession with choice (which you and onetesticle have shown), which is typically associate with "freedom". Give one of these westerners a hammer to knock in a nail and he'll be upset that you enforced your dogma on him, by oppressing him with the traditional stereotype of a hammer being used to knock in nails. No, he wants to use the rubber chicken for the job because it's his right to choose. Tell them to wear a freakin' mask to protect themselves and others from contracting a virus and they'll cry and protest that they're being oppressed by the government and you're robbing them of their choice. You criticised the more traditional approach to marriage, which defines the roles of husband and wife, for simply being 'dogmatic'. Dogmatic refers to laying down a principal of something that is arbitrarily true, there's reason for the traditional approaches discussed (You don't socialise with your ex because you're retarding both of your abilities to find new love and out of respect to your current spouse). That seems quite logical to me, it's not the same as saying "Don't see your ex because someone says so."

.... this obsession with choice has become so ridiculously idiotic.

You get methods for how to eat, how to swim, how to cook, why not how to live? We call it a lifestyle. The difference between us is that I've accepted that there is a carefully constructed lifestyle approach which is I believe is best. You use feelings and emotions.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2021, 01:08:25 pm by Aristocrat »


Re: ex partners
« Reply #70 on: August 22, 2021, 01:55:15 pm »
Yes most people in the West think freedom is pretty important. Freedom to chhose to live your life in a religious or traditional way or not. You don't agree people should be able to make that decision themselves?


  • VanIslander
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Re: ex partners
« Reply #71 on: August 22, 2021, 02:03:33 pm »
There's nothing wrong with that music. But all too often I meet people in their 50s who think the only good music was made when they were 16-24 year olds...
1985 to 1993? ... Gawd no. People my age skew older or much younger in our musical tastes. For example, the top single in 1986 was the f****** macarena! And in 1992 it was Whitney Houston. I grew up with garbage.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2021, 02:08:02 pm by VanIslander »


Re: ex partners
« Reply #72 on: August 22, 2021, 02:58:35 pm »
What is this risk you keep going on about? Risk of what? Friendship? Or are you just so weak that being friends with an ex means you must jump into bed with them? I don't get it.
Namely the risk that one's SO gets jealous about it one day or when they find out and this spirals into legal bills and divorce as it tends to do. Have people beaten the odds? Sure. Do you know you will when it starts? Not at all.

The halls of family court and filled with people who thought they could still be friends with their ex and it would be no big deal.

Seriously, if I was a divorce lawyer or in marriage counseling, I would encourage everyone to be friends with their ex , that no one can tell them what to do, that such rules make no sense, and if your partner objects they're just being insecure and you have every right to pursue happiness. I would shout this from the rooftops. I'd hope some app was made just so exes could be friends  and if I lived in Hollywood, I would pay some writer 30k to write it into their script and make it look funny and happy.

The great thing is if people listen to me, they tend to be repeat clients. I can't wait for people to hand me 5-20% of their worth they've taken years to gather while they bicker over the rest, all because they thought it would be great to see their ex for brunch or spend 2 hours together at some hotel.

The last thing I'd do? Encourage people to follow traditions, rules, and not give into urges and impulses. Those things would be a drag on my business.


Re: ex partners
« Reply #73 on: August 22, 2021, 03:11:58 pm »
Yes most people in the West think freedom is pretty important. Freedom to chhose to live your life in a religious or traditional way or not. You don't agree people should be able to make that decision themselves?
No one says they shouldn't be free. Just that the "free" choice isn't necessarily the best choice.

- While Aristocrat has termed this Western, which is partially true, I'd say it's modern Western, because traditional Western cultures view things similarly and these views exist in large swaths of the Western world, particularly amongst any religious communities that persist.
- A lot of people do things against tradition not because it makes sense to, but out of sheer reflexive opposition.
-The people that do things simply to be a "rebel" have a strong tendency to blame others when their acts of rebellion cause harm to themselves or others
- Many people confuse negative freedoms with "what you are now free to do is good and should be done". For example, Being free to smoke marijuana does not in turn mean it is good to smoke marijuana or you should start doing so. Being free to have an adulterous relationship does not mean you should. Being free to see your ex (and no one is saying it shouldn't be free, just that it is considered wrong under whatever rules/structure traditionalists abide by)does not in turn make it a good idea to do so. It's the understanding that you shouldn't be punished for it, NOT that it is the best thing to do.


Re: ex partners
« Reply #74 on: August 22, 2021, 03:48:47 pm »
Yeah, if people are allowed their freedom, they often make bad choices. Thanks for clearing that up.


Re: ex partners
« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2021, 04:09:03 pm »
Yes most people in the West think freedom is pretty important. Freedom to chhose to live your life in a religious or traditional way or not. You don't agree people should be able to make that decision themselves?

No, the people in the West who I'm talking about don't seem to understand what Freedom or Liberty are or mean.
I'm one the staunchest supporters of Liberty and Freedom, but this isn't about that.

If you paid a personal trainer to create a plan for you to achieve a certain physique within a certain timeframe, that plan will include telling you what you should do and eat.
You've made the decision to submit to their authority and knowledge and to make use of it. They're not robbing you of your freedom as you've paid them to make certain
decisions for you. So, you can either be a "free" dumbass who wasted his money on a personal trainer by eating and doing what he felt like or you can make use of or
you can use your brain to learn and improve.

A Religion or culture is exactly the same, a collection or arrangement of beliefs governing a broader focus and you've decided to live your life according to these
beliefs because you believe it's the correct path.

Contemporary Western culture clings to the stereotype that all of these 'traditional' beliefs have strict and random rules that you need to follow just because.
At least regarding Islam, which governs how I approach marriage among everything else, there's a reason for EVERYTHING, nothing is arbitrary. I can argue the reason
for everything from why I don't socialise with my exes to why I enter the bathroom with my left foot. I'm sure plenty of other Religions and cultures have good reasons for their teachings.
Many contemporary Western beliefs simply cannot be rationally explained, they're just loose conventions, which typically have their source in entertainment based television.

What makes you think people who follow a religious or cultural belief aren't doing so because they choose to?

If I told you to build a car from scratch would you study mechanical engineering? Read up on the mechanics of an internal combustion engine? Take up a welding course? Enlist the help of some mechanics, or ignore
all previous knowledge and skills you don't possess and "make all the decisions yourself"?


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  • Waygook Lord

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Re: ex partners
« Reply #76 on: August 22, 2021, 07:53:11 pm »
BTW, I absolutely post to amuse myself.

Posting to amuse oneself without consideration for the broader audience is rude. Would you make noise in a library? Throw trash on the ground?
___________________ ___________________ ___________________ ___________________ ___________________ ___________________ ___________________ ___________________ __

i really wish this was a better place for new members or quieter members to participate.  it would be freshing and beneficial to hear new voices, opinions, and points of view, but i can totally understand why they don't say much.

i think it was co4, stoat, and onnut that mentioned how most threads are just tired memes and corny attempts at starting a pun-train. i agree 100% with them.

co2 desperately trying too hard to be popular and funny. first - is it possible for you to make a post without somehow trying to wedge in YOUR GIRLFRIEND AND HER DAUGHTER? it is exhausting trying to read a thread and having to scroll past your 6th...and 7th...and 8th meme or the lame way you try and turn EVERYTHING into a pun or play on words. bro - sometimes people just wanna have a real back and forth conversation without all the immature nonsense and distractions. it's ok if every conversation doesn't include or revolve around you. just because people don't tell you you're annoying, doesn't mean you aren't. please quit trying to be the mayor of this website.

Hilarious and accurate.  Apancoe gets it's quality not quantity.  There are a select few who have decided they're the gatekeepers here and tend to kill the threads by over posting.  Moderation is key here.  Some people don't get the website is supposed to be for the room as opposed to a private inside conversation between a few posters.  Definitely suck the life out of a number of threads they don't need to do that sh*t in.  Keep it for the random thought themed threads fellas.  If you want to have a running conversation there is that other website where you can do that.

Yeah, none of the punny group is doing anything malicious and aren't a-holes, so you just have to hope they catch on and police themselves.  Can't be warned for over posting.  Most people aren't intimidated.  It just gets boring.  Bantering a lot doesn't mean you're good at bantering. 

I see the party a little differently than CO2.  I see it as a party where people are mingling and enjoying their conversations but then that one group of people who find themselves hilarious show up and talk extra loud because they want people to overhear them, but other people find them annoying and either leave the party or snap and say "Shut the f*ck up, no one gives a sh*T."  That's how I see Apancoe's post today.


  • CO2
  • Waygook Lord

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Re: ex partners
« Reply #77 on: August 22, 2021, 09:35:36 pm »
Ah yes, apancoe. The guy we never hear from and then suddenly gives everyone a good shellaquing.

If this were a party, he'd be the guy in the corner that no one notices that suddenly says we're all philistines and then leaves and slams the door.


  • JNM
  • The Legend

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Re: ex partners
« Reply #78 on: August 22, 2021, 10:35:15 pm »
Ah yes, apancoe. The guy we never hear from and then suddenly gives everyone a good shellaquing.

If this were a party, he'd be the guy in the corner that no one notices that suddenly says we're all philistines and then leaves and slams the door.


Quoting as evidence that it is possible to have no "GF & kid" references in a CO2 post.


  • OnNut81
  • The Legend

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Re: ex partners
« Reply #79 on: August 23, 2021, 07:35:51 am »
Posting to amuse oneself without consideration for the broader audience is rude. Would you make noise in a library? Throw trash on the ground?
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Those don't equate whatsoever. 

Try this.  Someone in a library keeps tapping on their desk with a pencil and keeps drumming out the same tuneless beat again and again and again.  Other patrons at the library ask them to be quiet and stop but that just makes them do it more.  It's like someone on waygook.org that keeps posting the same Bill Maher and John Stossel videos over and over but when people say they don't like them it just makes that poster do it more often.  How rude!
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 07:39:09 am by OnNut81 »